LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Peter1000 · Sep 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I said absolutely nothing about anyone being ashamed of Christ.

Romans 9
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why does one person follow Christ and another go his own way?

Philippians 2 explains:
"...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure,” God is behind a person's will.

Who we are is described in Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

May God's will be done.

You are quoting Paul, and he says, "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure,” And then you say "God is behind a person's will."

If you really believed this, then you would not say "May" God's will be done. You would say "God's will be done, whether you choose to follow him or not, God has chosen you and you will obey".

Your words sound automatic. The sheep recognize my voice. They will follow me. I will give them EL. They will never parish. No man can pluck them out of my hand. Pretty robotic.

Good if you are a sheep, not good if you are not a sheep. This doctrine seems like God is the one who is picking who will have EL and who won't. Is that fair? Is that how God works?

There are to many scriptures that remind us to be righteous. Tell us to stand up for Christ. Tell us to endure to the end. Tell us to be careful to do good works. Tell us to remember to love God. So if God is willing us to do his work, and it is God in us that does the work, we would not have to be reminded of these things, they would automatically be done. So the bible would be 2 pages long instead of 8,000 verses long, all for the purpose of keeping us on the straight and narrow path, which God should be doing automatically.

Your automatic, God is taking over our 'will', must not mean what you think it means, otherwise our 'will' is nothing, which to me, is contrary to the 'will' of God.

Peter1000 · Sep 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
His forgiveness is dependent on His merciful will.

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

There you go again with the automatic EL.

You even say "His forgiveness is dependent on His merciful will. This is directly in opposition to the bible, and Matthew 6:14-15, which states:
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So which is it:
1) God forgives based on His merciful will?

OR

2) God forgives based on you forgiving all who trespass against you?

Peter1000 · Sep 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Why does anyone need salvation?

Not sure what you mean?

He is the way · Sep 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I said absolutely nothing about anyone being ashamed of Christ.

Romans 9
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why does one person follow Christ and another go his own way?

Philippians 2 explains:
"...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure,” God is behind a person's will.

Who we are is described in Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

May God's will be done.

You said: "I said absolutely nothing about anyone being ashamed of Christ."

It is from the last scripture you quoted:
whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

That being said I am in no way insinuating that you are ashamed of Christ. I believe those who follow Christ will keep His sayings.

Rescued One · Sep 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You are quoting Paul, and he says, "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure,” And then you say "God is behind a person's will."

If you really believed this, then you would not say "May" God's will be done. You would say "God's will be done, whether you choose to follow him or not, God has chosen you and you will obey".

I was not being hopeful nor was I giving God permission to do His will.

Jesus said, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Satan's desire is the opposite. I voice my agreement with what Jesus said. It is clear to Christians that I disagree with Satan.

Peter1000 said:
Your words sound automatic. The sheep recognize my voice. They will follow me. I will give them EL. They will never parish. No man can pluck them out of my hand. Pretty robotic.

No more robotic than a Mormon testimony sounds. But my agreement with God's word is what matters, not how you perceive that agreement. If you disagree with God's word, defend that disagreeement rather than attempt to judge my honesty.

Peter1000 said:
Good if you are a sheep, not good if you are not a sheep. This doctrine seems like God is the one who is picking who will have EL and who won't. Is that fair? Is that how God works?

1. I agree that that it is good to be a sheep instead of a sinner.
2. Is there unrighteousness with God?
3. O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Peter1000 said:
There are to many scriptures that remind us to be righteous.

Too many or so many?

Peter1000 said:
Tell us to stand up for Christ. Tell us to endure to the end. Tell us to be careful to do good works. Tell us to remember to love God. So if God is willing us to do his work, and it is God in us that does the work, we would not have to be reminded of these things, they would automatically be done. So the bible would be 2 pages long instead of 8,000 verses long, all for the purpose of keeping us on the straight and narrow path, which God should be doing automatically.

Whose will is stronger, God's will or Satan's? Who follows the Shepherd? Who knows His voice?

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Will you call God unfair?

Peter1000 said:
Your automatic, God is taking over our 'will', must not mean what you think it means, otherwise our 'will' is nothing, which to me, is contrary to the 'will' of God.

No, God should change your will to His.

"There is none that understandeth" until God sets them free from Satan's will.

"And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

"... the whole world lieth in wickedness." (in the power of Satan)

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

BigDaddy4 · Sep 9, 2019

He is the way said:
I don't doubt the scripture, we will all be accountable for our sins and the life we lead unless we repent and thereafter keep the commandments. That is also true for the dead. However they will have the gospel preached to them:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

"was preached" is not the same as will preach or will continue to preach. Once again, the lds church makes doctrine out of misunderstanding what is actually written.

Rescued One · Sep 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Not sure what you mean?

Jesus came to save sinners. Only sinners need salvation.

Rescued One · Sep 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence:
and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It's difficult sharing Bible verses with those who don't believe what those verses say.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who is condemned? Who isn't?

The ones who love and follow Him are believers, not unbelivers!

He is the way · Sep 9, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
"was preached" is not the same as will preach or will continue to preach. Once again, the lds church makes doctrine out of misunderstanding what is actually written.

The LDS Church does NOT make up doctrine. Jesus Christ gives everyone the doctrine whether by him or by His prophets, it is the same:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:38)

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

BigDaddy4 · Sep 9, 2019

He is the way said:
The LDS Church does NOT make up doctrine. Jesus Christ gives everyone the doctrine whether by him or by His prophets, it is the same:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:38)

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Quoting your religion-unique source document is not really credible evidence to support your argument. Essentially you are saying it is because you say (or JS says) so. Your D&C is made up by a false prophet. The "voice" of the "servants" is conveniently dismissed when said servant says something whacky like BY's sun and moon people. If their "voices" were the "same" as Jesus', they would not be saying such things. It just goes to show they really don't know the Lord.

He is the way · Sep 9, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Quoting your religion-unique source document is not really credible evidence to support your argument. Essentially you are saying it is because you say (or JS says) so. Your D&C is made up by a false prophet. The "voice" of the "servants" is conveniently dismissed when said servant says something whacky like BY's sun and moon people. If their "voices" were the "same" as Jesus', they would not be saying such things. It just goes to show they really don't know the Lord.

The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price are all scripture directly from God. Having read them I know they are from God. Brigham Young did not say that God told him that people lived on the sun. God did not tell Peter to deny Jesus Christ three times.

twin.spin · Sep 10, 2019

He is the way said:
The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price are all scripture directly from God. Having read them I know they are from God. Brigham Young did not say that God told him that people lived on the sun. God did not tell Peter to deny Jesus Christ three times.

It will be a very sad tragic day when you realize just how terribly .. terribly … terribly deceived you've been, as the only fate for those on the left will be that of eternal darkness.

BigDaddy4 · Sep 10, 2019

He is the way said:
The Book of Mormon,

A fictional story with no evidence of the people, places, and events every existing. Thousands of errors, including content errors, have been corrected. Not a good track record for the "most correct book on Earth".

He is the way said:
Doctrine and Covenants,

A collection of convenient revelations, like the flip-flopping of plural marriage, that have been revised and edited over time, including, but not limited to, the original content in The Book of Commandments published in 1833 to the re-named initial Doctrines and Covenants published in 1835. Numerous content changes occurred over the years to its current version.

He is the way said:
the Pearl of Great Price

The PoGP contains:
Book of Moses - a rewrite of the Genesis story with no basis in reality; inconsistent with any known Biblical manuscript.
Book of Abraham - an Egyptian funeral text completely mistranslated and misunderstand by JS as attested by professional, non-Mormon Egyptologists.
Joseph Smith–Matthew - another rewrite of Scripture with no basis in reality and is inconsistent with all known manuscripts
Joseph Smith - History - several inconsistent versions exist; current version conveniently added after Joseph Smith's death, 20+ years after it allegedly happened. Also, not aligned with the invisible God of Biblical Scripture.
Articles of Faith - nothing more than a creed, some of which are incorrect (i.e., Article 10 - Zion in America).
I wouldn't hang your hat on any of these as evidence of anything other than the falsehood of your church.

He is the way said:
Brigham Young did not say that God told him that people lived on the sun.

While it may be true that he did not say those specific words, he does say that when he speaks from the pulpit it's as good as scripture. And he spoke of people living on the sun from the pulpit. A prophet of God would not make such a careless and ignorant statement.

He is the way said:
God did not tell Peter to deny Jesus Christ three times.

Irrelevant.

He is the way · Sep 10, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
A fictional story with no evidence of the people, places, and events every existing. Thousands of errors, including content errors, have been corrected. Not a good track record for the "most correct book on Earth".

A collection of convenient revelations, like the flip-flopping of plural marriage, that have been revised and edited over time, including, but not limited to, the original content in The Book of Commandments published in 1833 to the re-named initial Doctrines and Covenants published in 1835. Numerous content changes occurred over the years to its current version.

The PoGP contains:
Book of Moses - a rewrite of the Genesis story with no basis in reality; inconsistent with any known Biblical manuscript.
Book of Abraham - an Egyptian funeral text completely mistranslated and misunderstand by JS as attested by professional, non-Mormon Egyptologists.
Joseph Smith–Matthew - another rewrite of Scripture with no basis in reality and is inconsistent with all known manuscripts
Joseph Smith - History - several inconsistent versions exist; current version conveniently added after Joseph Smith's death, 20+ years after it allegedly happened. Also, not aligned with the invisible God of Biblical Scripture.
Articles of Faith - nothing more than a creed, some of which are incorrect (i.e., Article 10 - Zion in America).
I wouldn't hang your hat on any of these as evidence of anything other than the falsehood of your church.

While it may be true that he did not say those specific words, he does say that when he speaks from the pulpit it's as good as scripture. And he spoke of people living on the sun from the pulpit. A prophet of God would not make such a careless and ignorant statement.

Irrelevant.

Certain people like to emphasize the thousands of punctuation errors in the first printing of the Book of Mormon. I wonder if they know how many times the Bible has been revised? The Book of Mormon is still the most correct book.

Flip flopping in the Doctrine and Covenants on plural marriage is similar to the Bible. Many wives were given to David by God. Later God said a bishop should have one wife. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son but later he did not need to.

Again most of the changes in the Doctrine and Covenants were punctuation with a few other minor changes from Joseph Smith the prophet.

The Book of Moses is not contrary to the Bible, Elohim is plural.

As for the Book of Abraham, Egyptology is not an exact science. It all depends on who a person believes.

Joseph Smith History is from original manuscript.

Joseph Smith Mathew and the JST fix some of the inconsistencies in the Bible. For instance God does not repent.

Articles of Faith: Zion is anywhere that God's people are.

And as I have stated the only prophet that has not made a mistake was Jesus Christ. Peter also made mistakes.

Rescued One · Sep 10, 2019

He is the way said:
...And as I have stated the only prophet that has not made a mistake was Jesus Christ. Peter also made mistakes.

God is not a prophet and a prophet is not God.

He is the way · Sep 10, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
God is not a prophet and a prophet is not God.

Jesus called Himself a prophet and I believe Him:

(New Testament | Mark 6:3 - 5)

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Pedra · Sep 10, 2019

He is the way said:
Jesus called Himself a prophet and I believe Him:

(New Testament | Mark 6:3 - 5)

3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Here's the problem....You don't Believe the REAL JESUS that is revealed in the Bible, because you believe in the Mormon version of Jesus. The Lord Jesus spoke prophetic words in scripture because He is the Son of God, the second person in the Godhead. The Holy Bible says : "For by Him all things were created in heaven and that are in the earth visible and invisible....by HIM and for HIM."
Jesus was not a mere prophet though you love to grasp at any opportunity to equate the false prophet Joseph Smith to Jesus by attempting to draw those fake equivalencies because Mormons are taught to venerate their false prophet.
Jesus Christ is GOD.
Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God.
Joseph Smith was nothing but a wolf, a deceiver, a blasphemer and he was useful fool/ tool that Satan FYI-- meaning the real devil that the Bible warned about not the FAKE one that Mormonism believes in that they call the "spirit-brother of Jesus" which is blasphemy) Satan , disguised as an "angel of light" used Joseph Smith to try to corrupt the word of GOD aka, the Holy Bible, Christian teachings and the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please don't be deceived by Mormonism. Only read the Bible and not the false writings of JS.

Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

BigDaddy4 · Sep 11, 2019

He is the way said:
I wonder if they know how many times the Bible has been revised?

Oh, please do tell us the number you have in mind. :doh:

Remember, Joseph Smith's translation process with his "seer stone" and hat would not allow him to move on if what was written was not correct. He painted himself in a corner there.

He is the way said:
Again most of the changes in the Doctrine and Covenants were punctuation with a few other minor changes from Joseph Smith the prophet.

If that's what you believe, then you are ignorant of the doctrinal changes. Do some research. For instance, D&C 101:4 (one man, one wife) conflicts with D&C 132 on polygamy, so it was removed in the 1876 version.

He is the way said:
The Book of Moses is not contrary to the Bible, Elohim is plural.

Actually, it is, since it does not line up with any known manuscript. JS didn't understand it, so he changed it. And you've fallen for it.

He is the way said:
As for the Book of Abraham, Egyptology is not an exact science. It all depends on who a person believes.

Not an exact science?? There is no credible Egyptologist alive who would back up JS's "translation". But numerous have confirmed it's a funeral text. So, you're right - believe a false prophet or believe someone who knows the Egyptian language? No brainer for me.

He is the way said:
Joseph Smith History is from original manuscript.

Only there are a few "original manuscripts" available written by JS, each contradictory in some way to your current one.

He is the way said:
Joseph Smith Mathew and the JST fix some of the inconsistencies in the Bible. For instance God does not repent.

Smith's opinion, not God's Word. Choose wisely who to believe. They are not the same.

He is the way said:
Articles of Faith: Zion is anywhere that God's people are.

Again, you are being deceptive. That's not what your Article of Faith says. Here it is:
“We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.”

Being intentionally deceptive is not "keeping the commandments". You should probably have a confessional chat with your bishop.

He is the way said:
And as I have stated the only prophet that has not made a mistake was Jesus Christ. Peter also made mistakes.

Peter did not make ignorant statements from the pulpit as BY did. HUGE difference. You are grasping at straws.

He is the way · Sep 11, 2019

Pedra said:
Here's the problem....You don't Believe the REAL JESUS that is revealed in the Bible, because you believe in the Mormon version of Jesus. The Lord Jesus spoke prophetic words in scripture because He is the Son of God, the second person in the Godhead. The Holy Bible says : "For by Him all things were created in heaven and that are in the earth visible and invisible....by HIM and for HIM."
Jesus was not a mere prophet though you love to grasp at any opportunity to equate the false prophet Joseph Smith to Jesus by attempting to draw those fake equivalencies because Mormons are taught to venerate their false prophet.
Jesus Christ is GOD.
Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God.
Joseph Smith was nothing but a wolf, a deceiver, a blasphemer and he was useful fool/ tool that Satan FYI-- meaning the real devil that the Bible warned about not the FAKE one that Mormonism believes in that they call the "spirit-brother of Jesus" which is blasphemy) Satan , disguised as an "angel of light" used Joseph Smith to try to corrupt the word of GOD aka, the Holy Bible, Christian teachings and the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please don't be deceived by Mormonism. Only read the Bible and not the false writings of JS.

Colossians 1:16 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

Perhaps some people do not understand the definition of prophet:

prophet
noun
proph·et | \ ˈprä-fət \
Definition of prophet

1: one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as
a: often the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b: one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will
2: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insightespecially : an inspired poet
3: one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR
4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5: Christian Science
a: a spiritual seer
b: disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth

Jesus called Himself a prophet and indeed He was a prophet.

He is the way · Sep 11, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Oh, please do tell us the number you have in mind.

Well there are over 450 translations of the Bible in English. Have you read Wycliffe's translation?

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