Did we miss our turn somewhere?

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 9, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
I think Revelation speaks of an "age" or era, and all fallen era's and what happens in and with them (fallen era's) from the beginning of one, to the end of one, and at the very end of the book (Revelation), a new beginning again... Only it speaks of the new beginning of a not fallen one anymore maybe, or maybe one that starts out not fallen (again) but may have the possibility of becoming fallen again in the future maybe, IDK?, etc...

Problem is it speaks it us spiritually, or in such heavy likenesses or metaphors, etc, that it's difficult to interpret or understand "exactly" or precisely...

Many have tried, and many still do not know for sure, etc...

God Bless!

Your on the right track. The Bible is pretty specific what those era’s are.

Daniel chap. 2 has a prophecy about 4 empires naming Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon as the 1st. In it the Messiah comes during the 4th empire and destroys it. Then the invisible kingdom of God illustrated as a great mountain fills the earth.

Daniel 7 repeats this prophecy and adds details to it. Notably. That the 4th empire will have, as yet 10 unspecified emperors, followed by an 11th that will start a war against the saints that overcomes them for 1260 days, (of years.) Or 1260 years. Then afterwards the meek inheriting earth. Becoming the dominate influence in it.

Daniel 8 names the 2nd and 3rd empires as the Medo\Persian and Greek empires. It also prophesies the beginning of time of wrath starting near the end of the Greek empire against ancient Israel. A time that has an appointed end.

Daniel 9 contains a prophecy of exactly when the Messiah would come. 490 years from the time of one of 3 decrees by the Medo\Persian emperors to restore and build Jerusalem. 490 years following one of these decrees was the year Jesus was revealed as the Messiah to ancient Israel, when John baptized him. It also contains a prophecy about the appointed time of the end mentioned in Daniel 8. That the end of that age would come when the Messiah came. The city and sanctuary would be destroyed by the son of the emperor.

Daniel 11, as prophecy, goes through all the emperors of the Medo\Persian empire and the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt's wars with the land of Israel stuck in between the belligerents. It provides more details of the beginning of the time of wrath when the Greek king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes enslaved and destroyed the Jewish people. It prophesies the rise of Herod the Great in verses 36-39. Then Octavian's, (Augustus Caesar's) march through Judea, to conquer the last part of the Greek Empire.

Daniel 12 is a prophecy mostly about the end of that age and the war that destroyed Ancient Israel. It also prophesies the deliverance of the believers from the war and their ministry of bringing people to the light of the Messiah.

Among many other prophecies in the New Testament. Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 speak of the war in Judea coming to that generation and the end of the Old Covenant age. The apostles letters to the churches contain interpretations of just how that was going to come pass and what would follow. These interpretations reflect the imperfect understanding of those events, future to them. Jesus directly told them this in Acts 1:6. That they would not be given an understanding of the times and seasons that lay ahead of them.

Revelations contains 2 or 3 separate visions of the four empires in Daniel with added details about the Roman one. Chapters 6:9-7:8; 14:1-5 speak of the murder of the prophets and the saints in ancient Israel, then its destruction in 70 AD because of this. Then the believers deliverance from that war. Both of these words are followed by prophecy of the great harvest of souls in the Roman Empire and the great persecution and tribulations visited upon the believers by the Romans. This is followed up by prophecies of 7 judgments against the empire. Specifically against city of Rome along with three woes against that city. (It was sacked three times and depopulated by invading armies.)

In Revelation the 4 empires are illustrated as four horseman. Then later again using the same animal illustrations as Daniel 7. John received these visions during the reign of the 6th emperor of Rome. Vespasian would be the 7th emperor. During his reign as per Daniel 9, his son, (the prince) destroyed Jerusalem. Titus become the 8th emperor. He is referred to as the "beast " because he personifies the age of the four gentile empires; as he like Nebuchadnezzar, the 1st emperor of the 1st empire destroyed Jerusalem. John is told the 10 and the 11th as of yet unspecified emperors of Daniel 2 & 7 lay out ahead of these first 8. If you start with the next emperor as the 1st of the ten after Titus, which is Domitian. The beginning of the reign of Septimius Severus in 193 AD precisely fulfills what Daniel 7 said about that 11th emperor. In case you did not know this. The Roman Empire did not end until what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople, was conquered and the last Roman Emperor killed in 1453 AD. It was 1260 years from the beginning of Severus's reign until 1453 AD. Three emperors fell before him in one year. He started the all out war against the saints. Made the worlds first blasphemy law. Death penalty for converting to Christianity. The number 1260 is repeated 5 times in Revelation regarding the reign of the Roman Empire over believers and its war against them.

Revelation 13:11-17 prophesies the permanent split of the Roman empire into and eastern and western branches after the death of the emperor Constantine. The two horns of the lamb illustrate this. Its appearance as a lamb illustrates its claims of Christianity and it speaking with the mouth of a dragon illustrates its true nature. For instance. When the emperor Justinian codified Roman imperial decree's and laws in the 6th century. It was the death penalty to be baptized as an adult who accepted Christ. Christians were baptized into the imperial church as babies. To be re-baptized as an adult because you became what you thought was a true Christian was treason against the empire. The kings of Europe followed suit with their own imperial churches. These churches were set up exactly as the official churches of communist nations. Not to promote Christianity but to control it and subjugated it to the will of the king or emperor.

Revelation 19 prophesies the end of the age of the four gentile empires in 1453 AD. Revelation 20-22, the age of promise we now live in. The majority of these 3 chapters verses are taken out of the 100+ chapters of Old Testament prophecies about this age of promise. In it. Gog and Magog illustrate the nations and peoples, past, present and future since 1453 AD who seek to stop the growth of the influence of the invisible kingdom of God in the earth. They are defeated politically and in war in chapter 19. As in Daniel 7 the saints became dominate in the earth over the forces of evil due to their influence in the nations founded upon their ideals. The change that took place in the world that enabled this was the Bible getting into the hands of the general public for the first time in human history. This began to happen immediately following the end of the age of the four gentile empires. Since that time the nations most influenced by the Bible have come out on top in wars directed at stopping the growth of the free world founded by Bible reading peoples. The rest of highly illustrative statements in chap. 19 illustrate the happenings in the world since that time. Rev. 21-22 taken directly out of OT chapters like Isaiah 54, 60, 61, 65 and many others illustrate the bride of Christ, the wife of God, believers in the free nations of the world. The things made available to them during this time period as opposed to the ages beforehand. Given as promises. But, promises that have to be won in a world that is still hostile to their existence. Not wanting the dominance of their influence, and their judgments of right and wrong to prevail in the world.

End Time Prophecy

Berean Tim · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
View attachment 262793

That's why I distinguished Day of Lord prophecies from normal speech. Your trying to confuse the issue

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

Berean Tim said:
That's why I distinguished Day of Lord prophecies from normal speech. Your trying to confuse the issue

Just going by the common definition and not trying to "adjust" it to fit an idea.

Berean Tim · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
Just going by the common definition and not trying to "adjust" it to fit an idea.

That's why I posted a few of scriptures referring to The Day of the Lord. Maybe you need to adjust to scripture instead of your "idea"

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

Berean Tim said:
That's why I posted a few of scriptures referring to The Day of the Lord. Maybe you need to adjust to scripture instead of your "idea"

The reason some have sought to postpone the prophecy to the future—in spite of what Peter said!—is because it speaks of the sun being darkened, the moon being turned to blood, and “The Day of the Lord”! They feel such terms must definitely refer to the very end of this age, to final things, But while the scriptures do speak of a final, end-time “day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thess. 5:2), the expression was commonly applied by the prophets to different times in Biblical history, as the following four examples show.
1. EDOM. The destruction that came upon the land of Edom was called “The Day of the Lord”. The book of Obadiah was written, as the opening verse explains, “concerning Edom.” The people of Edom lived in an area naturally well-fortified with rocky mountains and cliffs. Yet in spite of their feeling of security, as the context shows, judgment was to come upon them, even as upon the heathen who failed to help Jerusalem in its time of need. “For The Day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head” (Obadiah 15).
Edom, also known as Idumea, was given warning by the Lord through Isaiah: “For my sword shall.. .come down upon Idumea... for it is The Day of the Lord’s vengeance... from generation to generation it shall lie waste” (Is. 34:5,10).
The Day of the Lord upon Edom was “near”—not something to take place two or three thousand years later. It was to be destroyed and lie waste from generation to generation—thus not a prediction of the end of time, but long before the end.
Edom was overthrown by the Chaldeans and finally by the Jews. The Idumeans, as a nation, are totally extinct. An article in the Dickson Bible (p. 1036) says: “This country... is of very great interest because of the remarkable manner in which the predictions of the prophets have been fulfilled. These predictions portrayed the coming desolation.., In the day of its strength and pride it teemed with commercial activity as merchants passed through the land... “None shall pass through it” (Isaiah 34:10)... has been abundantly fulfilled in the cessation of the stream of traffic that in the time of Obadiah passed through that region..in no instance was prophecy more emphatlcally fulfilled than in the utter desolation of Idumea.”
The “day of the Lord” against Edom is long past, fulfilled!

2. EGYPT. Ezekiel prophesied of judgment upon Egypt and certain other nations. “Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the Day is near, even The Day of the Lord is near...the sword shall come upon Egypt...I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain” (Ezekiel 30:2-11). There can be no mistake about it, the “day of the Lord” here was something which took place in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. It was "near” when Ezekiel prophesied—not something to take place two or three thousand years later.
Jeremiah said: “The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah... against Egypt... Egypt riseth up like a flood, and he saith, I will go up, and cover the earth; I will destroy”. But instead of success for the forces of Egypt, God pronounced his judgments upon them. “For this is The Day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance..The word that the Lord spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt” (Jer. 46:1,2,10,13).
The fact that the judgments of The Day of the Lord against Egypt were to be carried out by Nebuchadnezzar clearly shows its ancient setting. These prophecies could not possibly refer to events that are yet future.
3. BABYLON. The overthrow of the Babylonian empire was called “The Day of the Lord.” Notice the words of Isaiah: “The burden of Babylon... Howl ye; for The Day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.., Behold, The Day of the Lord cometh... to lay the land (of Babylon) desolate... Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them.. .their BOWS also shall dash the young men to pieces...her time is Near... her days shall not be prolonged” (Isaiah 13:1-22).
Now if The Day of the Lord was “near”, was “at hand”, back in Old Testament days prior to the overthrow of Babylon, this passage does not refer to an event two or three thousand years later! Besides, it specifies that the “Medes”—a primitive people—fighting with bows and arrows would be his instruments for judgment. “The Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it” (Jer. 50:42; 51:11). We know from the book of Daniel that the Medes were instrumental in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom (Daniel 5:31; 9:1).
Here, then, is another example of “The Day of the Lord” in ancient times.
4. JERUSALEM. The prophet Joel warned of God’s judgement that was to come upon Jerusalem and Judah. The time of judgment was called The Day of the Lord. “Alas for the day! for The Day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15). “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion... for The Day Of The Lord cometh. for it is nigh at hand” (Joel 2:1). At this time, the temple built by Solomon was still standing as seen by references to the meat and drink offerings, the priests, porch, and altar of the house of the Lord.
We know that the judgment of The Day of the Lord which was “at hand”, did come to pass when Jerusalem was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzar and the temple destroyed (2 Chron. 36). All of this is now ancient history. The Babylonian army that was to come against Jerusalem was such that there would not be the like “even to the years of many generations” (Joel 2:2). This fact also places the fulfillment generations before the end-time, not something to occur at the very end of time.
Zephaniah had also warned of this destruction. “I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem... for The Day Of The Lord is at hand . .the great Day Of The Lord is near” (Zeph. 1:4,7,14).
Following this destruction which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar, Jeremiah wrote: "The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets.. .thou hast slain them in the DAY of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied. Thou hast slain them in the Day of thine anger... so that In the Day of the Lord’s anger none escaped nor remained” (Lam. 2:20-22).

The “day of the Lord” which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar is obviously past, fulfilled.

But how does all of this tie in with the prophecy quoted by Peter on the day of Pentecost? Just this: since the expression “day of the Lord” was used to describe that destruction which came upon Jerusalem in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, it is not unreasonable to believe this same term could be used to describe the destruction which came upon Jerusalem in 70A.D. Therefore, when Peter quoted the prophecy from Joel—he was not taking it out of its proper setting. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit had come, and within a few years judgment—“the “day of the Lord”—was destined to fall upon that city and nation. All of this is now history.

But, some might point out, what Peter quoted from Joel spoke of the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood. Would not this refer to the very end of time? No, for expressions about the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven, were commonly used by the old Testament prophets as figures of speech, in fact, this very wording was used in each of the four “day of the Lord” examples we have given and shown to be Past! In none of these cases did the literal sun quit shining or did the literal stars fall to the earth.

The overthrow of Edom was predicted in these words; “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down” (Isaiah 34:4). Of course the literal sun, moon, and stars were not dissolved.
The judgments which came upon Egypt in the days of Nebuchadnezzar were described with the same figure of speech: “The day shall be darkened” for Egypt (Ez. 30:18), and concerning her king, “I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark” (Ezekiel 32:7,8).
The same figure of speech was used concerning the ancient judgment upon Babylon: “The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened. ..the moon shall not cause her light to shine” (Is. 13:10).
And so on...........

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

Ricky M · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
The reason some have sought to postpone the prophecy to the future—in spite of what Peter said!—is because it speaks of the sun being darkened, the moon being turned to blood, and “The Day of the Lord”! They feel such terms must definitely refer to the very end of this age, to final things, But while the scriptures do speak of a final, end-time “day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thess. 5:2), the expression was commonly applied by the prophets to different times in Biblical history, as the following four examples show.
1. EDOM. The destruction that came upon the land of Edom was called “The Day of the Lord”. The book of Obadiah was written, as the opening verse explains, “concerning Edom.” The people of Edom lived in an area naturally well-fortified with rocky mountains and cliffs. Yet in spite of their feeling of security, as the context shows, judgment was to come upon them, even as upon the heathen who failed to help Jerusalem in its time of need. “For The Day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head” (Obadiah 15).
Edom, also known as Idumea, was given warning by the Lord through Isaiah: “For my sword shall.. .come down upon Idumea... for it is The Day of the Lord’s vengeance... from generation to generation it shall lie waste” (Is. 34:5,10).
The Day of the Lord upon Edom was “near”—not something to take place two or three thousand years later. It was to be destroyed and lie waste from generation to generation—thus not a prediction of the end of time, but long before the end.
Edom was overthrown by the Chaldeans and finally by the Jews. The Idumeans, as a nation, are totally extinct. An article in the Dickson Bible (p. 1036) says: “This country... is of very great interest because of the remarkable manner in which the predictions of the prophets have been fulfilled. These predictions portrayed the coming desolation.., In the day of its strength and pride it teemed with commercial activity as merchants passed through the land... “None shall pass through it” (Isaiah 34:10)... has been abundantly fulfilled in the cessation of the stream of traffic that in the time of Obadiah passed through that region..in no instance was prophecy more emphatlcally fulfilled than in the utter desolation of Idumea.”
The “day of the Lord” against Edom is long past, fulfilled!

2. EGYPT. Ezekiel prophesied of judgment upon Egypt and certain other nations. “Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the Day is near, even The Day of the Lord is near...the sword shall come upon Egypt...I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain” (Ezekiel 30:2-11). There can be no mistake about it, the “day of the Lord” here was something which took place in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. It was "near” when Ezekiel prophesied—not something to take place two or three thousand years later.
Jeremiah said: “The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah... against Egypt... Egypt riseth up like a flood, and he saith, I will go up, and cover the earth; I will destroy”. But instead of success for the forces of Egypt, God pronounced his judgments upon them. “For this is The Day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance..The word that the Lord spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt” (Jer. 46:1,2,10,13).
The fact that the judgments of The Day of the Lord against Egypt were to be carried out by Nebuchadnezzar clearly shows its ancient setting. These prophecies could not possibly refer to events that are yet future.
3. BABYLON. The overthrow of the Babylonian empire was called “The Day of the Lord.” Notice the words of Isaiah: “The burden of Babylon... Howl ye; for The Day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.., Behold, The Day of the Lord cometh... to lay the land (of Babylon) desolate... Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them.. .their BOWS also shall dash the young men to pieces...her time is Near... her days shall not be prolonged” (Isaiah 13:1-22).
Now if The Day of the Lord was “near”, was “at hand”, back in Old Testament days prior to the overthrow of Babylon, this passage does not refer to an event two or three thousand years later! Besides, it specifies that the “Medes”—a primitive people—fighting with bows and arrows would be his instruments for judgment. “The Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it” (Jer. 50:42; 51:11). We know from the book of Daniel that the Medes were instrumental in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom (Daniel 5:31; 9:1).
Here, then, is another example of “The Day of the Lord” in ancient times.
4. JERUSALEM. The prophet Joel warned of God’s judgement that was to come upon Jerusalem and Judah. The time of judgment was called The Day of the Lord. “Alas for the day! for The Day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15). “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion... for The Day Of The Lord cometh. for it is nigh at hand” (Joel 2:1). At this time, the temple built by Solomon was still standing as seen by references to the meat and drink offerings, the priests, porch, and altar of the house of the Lord.
We know that the judgment of The Day of the Lord which was “at hand”, did come to pass when Jerusalem was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzar and the temple destroyed (2 Chron. 36). All of this is now ancient history. The Babylonian army that was to come against Jerusalem was such that there would not be the like “even to the years of many generations” (Joel 2:2). This fact also places the fulfillment generations before the end-time, not something to occur at the very end of time.
Zephaniah had also warned of this destruction. “I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem... for The Day Of The Lord is at hand . .the great Day Of The Lord is near” (Zeph. 1:4,7,14).
Following this destruction which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar, Jeremiah wrote: "The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets.. .thou hast slain them in the DAY of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied. Thou hast slain them in the Day of thine anger... so that In the Day of the Lord’s anger none escaped nor remained” (Lam. 2:20-22).

The “day of the Lord” which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar is obviously past, fulfilled.

But how does all of this tie in with the prophecy quoted by Peter on the day of Pentecost? Just this: since the expression “day of the Lord” was used to describe that destruction which came upon Jerusalem in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, it is not unreasonable to believe this same term could be used to describe the destruction which came upon Jerusalem in 70A.D. Therefore, when Peter quoted the prophecy from Joel—he was not taking it out of its proper setting. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit had come, and within a few years judgment—“the “day of the Lord”—was destined to fall upon that city and nation. All of this is now history.

But, some might point out, what Peter quoted from Joel spoke of the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood. Would not this refer to the very end of time? No, for expressions about the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven, were commonly used by the old Testament prophets as figures of speech, in fact, this very wording was used in each of the four “day of the Lord” examples we have given and shown to be Past! In none of these cases did the literal sun quit shining or did the literal stars fall to the earth.

The overthrow of Edom was predicted in these words; “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down” (Isaiah 34:4). Of course the literal sun, moon, and stars were not dissolved.
The judgments which came upon Egypt in the days of Nebuchadnezzar were described with the same figure of speech: “The day shall be darkened” for Egypt (Ez. 30:18), and concerning her king, “I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark” (Ezekiel 32:7,8).
The same figure of speech was used concerning the ancient judgment upon Babylon: “The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened. ..the moon shall not cause her light to shine” (Is. 13:10).
And so on...........

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

Each of these manifestations did not render the others moot. Each culture had their own "day of the Lord" judgment. Just as our current culture will see its own "day". The events to come are actually nothing new, they are a final escalation of the tribulation that has been in effect since the ascension. God's word is eternal. Don't be lulled into thinking it is of no more effect.

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

Ricky M said:
Each of these manifestations did not render the others moot. Each culture had their own "day of the Lord" judgment. Just as our current culture will see its own "day". The events to come are actually nothing new, they are a final escalation of the tribulation that has been in effect since the ascension. God's word is eternal. Don't be lulled into thinking it is of no more effect.

I'm not suggesting the Day of the Lord isn't looming. Just that many think all "Days of the Lord" are one and the same future Day of the Lord.

Neogaia777 · Sep 9, 2019

Thank you guys for your posts, I thoroughly appreciate it/them.

God Bless!

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 9, 2019

The return of the kingdom is linked with the return of the sacrifice. Not that the sacrifices are acceptable to the LORD but the sign is the return of them which if it is the stage for the abomination of desolation would indicate that the return of the sacrifice is key for the 70th week of Daniel to be considered a future event. Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
Israel has indeed gone many days without a sacrifice and now they are a nation and have prepared everything necessary to resume them again. This is the sign to watch for the return of them. 2 Thes 2
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Nero certainly had no lying signs or wonders and never entered the temple himself. There were no two witnesses either. The fact is everything is set up for the literalist view to happen as predicted and your historical view will soon be the hysterical view as the one world government is coming that is opposed to the LORD and indeed the seals will be broken and and the calamities to follow will be on a global scale.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
This thread isn't about the future - that's off topic - it's about the past and, as Dave eloquently put it, looking at the map again to see if a turn was missed somewhere that caused us to be off course.

the future is on topic if the historical view is incorrect this is the nature of Dave's comment to present a theory that it is in the past. If you disagree your case has to point to the future.

fwGod · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

What the apostles wrote is closer now for us than when those of the first century believed.

The shortness of time between the time that the epistles were written.. "shortly to be done" is referring to the prophetic timeframe.

The age that Paul spoke of "in the ages to come" can find it's timeframe in reference to Hosea 6:2 "in two days".

For we at this time, it's been roughly 2 thousand years since Jesus was raised from the dead.

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

fwGod said:
What the apostles wrote is closer now for us than when those of the first century believed.

The shortness of time between the time that the epistles were written.. "shortly to be done" is referring to the prophetic timeframe.

The age that Paul spoke of "in the ages to come" can find it's timeframe in reference to Hosea 6:2 "in two days".

For we at this time, it's been roughly 2 thousand years since Jesus was raised from the dead.

But many can see early fulfillments.

Neogaia777 · Sep 9, 2019

We're talking about days of judgement upon the world here right? Harvests for the angels, etc. And I think that there may have been a few of these or so (or more) already, but I most definitely believe there is one coming still also, a "big one", but I also think the "story" is pretty much the same for every single one, until after they are not fallen anymore, or after the end of a, or the, "big one", i guess you could say, that hasn't happened yet, ect...

What do you guys think?

God Bless!

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 9, 2019

Daniel Martinovich said:
Your on the right track. The Bible is pretty specific what those era’s are.

Daniel chap. 2 has a prophecy about 4 empires naming Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon as the 1st. In it the Messiah comes during the 4th empire and destroys it. Then the invisible kingdom of God illustrated as a great mountain fills the earth.

Daniel 7 repeats this prophecy and adds details to it. Notably. That the 4th empire will have, as yet 10 unspecified emperors, followed by an 11th that will start a war against the saints that overcomes them for 1260 days, (of years.) Or 1260 years. Then afterwards the meek inheriting earth. Becoming the dominate influence in it.

Daniel 8 names the 2nd and 3rd empires as the Medo\Persian and Greek empires. It also prophesies the beginning of time of wrath starting near the end of the Greek empire against ancient Israel. A time that has an appointed end.

Daniel 9 contains a prophecy of exactly when the Messiah would come. 490 years from the time of one of 3 decrees by the Medo\Persian emperors to restore and build Jerusalem. 490 years following one of these decrees was the year Jesus was revealed as the Messiah to ancient Israel, when John baptized him. It also contains a prophecy about the appointed time of the end mentioned in Daniel 8. That the end of that age would come when the Messiah came. The city and sanctuary would be destroyed by the son of the emperor.

Daniel 11, as prophecy, goes through all the emperors of the Medo\Persian empire and the Greek kings of Syria and Egypt's wars with the land of Israel stuck in between the belligerents. It provides more details of the beginning of the time of wrath when the Greek king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes enslaved and destroyed the Jewish people. It prophesies the rise of Herod the Great in verses 36-39. Then Octavian's, (Augustus Caesar's) march through Judea, to conquer the last part of the Greek Empire.

Daniel 12 is a prophecy mostly about the end of that age and the war that destroyed Ancient Israel. It also prophesies the deliverance of the believers from the war and their ministry of bringing people to the light of the Messiah.

Among many other prophecies in the New Testament. Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 speak of the war in Judea coming to that generation and the end of the Old Covenant age. The apostles letters to the churches contain interpretations of just how that was going to come pass and what would follow. These interpretations reflect the imperfect understanding of those events, future to them. Jesus directly told them this in Acts 1:6. That they would not be given an understanding of the times and seasons that lay ahead of them.

Revelations contains 2 or 3 separate visions of the four empires in Daniel with added details about the Roman one. Chapters 6:9-7:8; 14:1-5 speak of the murder of the prophets and the saints in ancient Israel, then its destruction in 70 AD because of this. Then the believers deliverance from that war. Both of these words are followed by prophecy of the great harvest of souls in the Roman Empire and the great persecution and tribulations visited upon the believers by the Romans. This is followed up by prophecies of 7 judgments against the empire. Specifically against city of Rome along with three woes against that city. (It was sacked three times and depopulated by invading armies.)

In Revelation the 4 empires are illustrated as four horseman. Then later again using the same animal illustrations as Daniel 7. John received these visions during the reign of the 6th emperor of Rome. Vespasian would be the 7th emperor. During his reign as per Daniel 9, his son, (the prince) destroyed Jerusalem. Titus become the 8th emperor. He is referred to as the "beast " because he personifies the age of the four gentile empires; as he like Nebuchadnezzar, the 1st emperor of the 1st empire destroyed Jerusalem. John is told the 10 and the 11th as of yet unspecified emperors of Daniel 2 & 7 lay out ahead of these first 8. If you start with the next emperor as the 1st of the ten after Titus, which is Domitian. The beginning of the reign of Septimius Severus in 193 AD precisely fulfills what Daniel 7 said about that 11th emperor. In case you did not know this. The Roman Empire did not end until what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople, was conquered and the last Roman Emperor killed in 1453 AD. It was 1260 years from the beginning of Severus's reign until 1453 AD. Three emperors fell before him in one year. He started the all out war against the saints. Made the worlds first blasphemy law. Death penalty for converting to Christianity. The number 1260 is repeated 5 times in Revelation regarding the reign of the Roman Empire over believers and its war against them.

Revelation 13:11-17 prophesies the permanent split of the Roman empire into and eastern and western branches after the death of the emperor Constantine. The two horns of the lamb illustrate this. Its appearance as a lamb illustrates its claims of Christianity and it speaking with the mouth of a dragon illustrates its true nature. For instance. When the emperor Justinian codified Roman imperial decree's and laws in the 6th century. It was the death penalty to be baptized as an adult who accepted Christ. Christians were baptized into the imperial church as babies. To be re-baptized as an adult because you became what you thought was a true Christian was treason against the empire. The kings of Europe followed suit with their own imperial churches. These churches were set up exactly as the official churches of communist nations. Not to promote Christianity but to control it and subjugated it to the will of the king or emperor.

Revelation 19 prophesies the end of the age of the four gentile empires in 1453 AD. Revelation 20-22, the age of promise we now live in. The majority of these 3 chapters verses are taken out of the 100+ chapters of Old Testament prophecies about this age of promise. In it. Gog and Magog illustrate the nations and peoples, past, present and future since 1453 AD who seek to stop the growth of the influence of the invisible kingdom of God in the earth. They are defeated politically and in war in chapter 19. As in Daniel 7 the saints became dominate in the earth over the forces of evil due to their influence in the nations founded upon their ideals. The change that took place in the world that enabled this was the Bible getting into the hands of the general public for the first time in human history. This began to happen immediately following the end of the age of the four gentile empires. Since that time the nations most influenced by the Bible have come out on top in wars directed at stopping the growth of the free world founded by Bible reading peoples. The rest of highly illustrative statements in chap. 19 illustrate the happenings in the world since that time. Rev. 21-22 taken directly out of OT chapters like Isaiah 54, 60, 61, 65 and many others illustrate the bride of Christ, the wife of God, believers in the free nations of the world. The things made available to them during this time period as opposed to the ages beforehand. Given as promises. But, promises that have to be won in a world that is still hostile to their existence. Not wanting the dominance of their influence, and their judgments of right and wrong to prevail in the world.

End Time Prophecy

no prophecy is of any private interpretation and your interpretations could never be made using an inductive method and certainly could be labeled a private interpretation. Do not be led into every wind of doctrine... you had to be taught this idea and with a concordance and Bible you would never come to this but would have to be led to it. The literal view can be deduced inductively. The fact is Israel is a nation and they have plans and prepared everything for the next temple already. The stage is set for a world government to rise and one that has every literal aspect of a Satanic government. This is a great evidence that the future view is correct. If Israel did not raise the flag then perhaps you would have had a better argument. Now they are there and the perilous times have come and the global scope of the literal events is very much in focus. This should cause one to reflect weather the historical view may be the one in error.

Berean Tim · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
The reason some have sought to postpone the prophecy to the future—in spite of what Peter said!—is because it speaks of the sun being darkened, the moon being turned to blood, and “The Day of the Lord”! They feel such terms must definitely refer to the very end of this age, to final things, But while the scriptures do speak of a final, end-time “day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thess. 5:2), the expression was commonly applied by the prophets to different times in Biblical history, as the following four examples show.
1. EDOM. The destruction that came upon the land of Edom was called “The Day of the Lord”. The book of Obadiah was written, as the opening verse explains, “concerning Edom.” The people of Edom lived in an area naturally well-fortified with rocky mountains and cliffs. Yet in spite of their feeling of security, as the context shows, judgment was to come upon them, even as upon the heathen who failed to help Jerusalem in its time of need. “For The Day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head” (Obadiah 15).
Edom, also known as Idumea, was given warning by the Lord through Isaiah: “For my sword shall.. .come down upon Idumea... for it is The Day of the Lord’s vengeance... from generation to generation it shall lie waste” (Is. 34:5,10).
The Day of the Lord upon Edom was “near”—not something to take place two or three thousand years later. It was to be destroyed and lie waste from generation to generation—thus not a prediction of the end of time, but long before the end.
Edom was overthrown by the Chaldeans and finally by the Jews. The Idumeans, as a nation, are totally extinct. An article in the Dickson Bible (p. 1036) says: “This country... is of very great interest because of the remarkable manner in which the predictions of the prophets have been fulfilled. These predictions portrayed the coming desolation.., In the day of its strength and pride it teemed with commercial activity as merchants passed through the land... “None shall pass through it” (Isaiah 34:10)... has been abundantly fulfilled in the cessation of the stream of traffic that in the time of Obadiah passed through that region..in no instance was prophecy more emphatlcally fulfilled than in the utter desolation of Idumea.”
The “day of the Lord” against Edom is long past, fulfilled!

2. EGYPT. Ezekiel prophesied of judgment upon Egypt and certain other nations. “Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the Day is near, even The Day of the Lord is near...the sword shall come upon Egypt...I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain” (Ezekiel 30:2-11). There can be no mistake about it, the “day of the Lord” here was something which took place in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. It was "near” when Ezekiel prophesied—not something to take place two or three thousand years later.
Jeremiah said: “The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah... against Egypt... Egypt riseth up like a flood, and he saith, I will go up, and cover the earth; I will destroy”. But instead of success for the forces of Egypt, God pronounced his judgments upon them. “For this is The Day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance..The word that the Lord spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt” (Jer. 46:1,2,10,13).
The fact that the judgments of The Day of the Lord against Egypt were to be carried out by Nebuchadnezzar clearly shows its ancient setting. These prophecies could not possibly refer to events that are yet future.
3. BABYLON. The overthrow of the Babylonian empire was called “The Day of the Lord.” Notice the words of Isaiah: “The burden of Babylon... Howl ye; for The Day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.., Behold, The Day of the Lord cometh... to lay the land (of Babylon) desolate... Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them.. .their BOWS also shall dash the young men to pieces...her time is Near... her days shall not be prolonged” (Isaiah 13:1-22).
Now if The Day of the Lord was “near”, was “at hand”, back in Old Testament days prior to the overthrow of Babylon, this passage does not refer to an event two or three thousand years later! Besides, it specifies that the “Medes”—a primitive people—fighting with bows and arrows would be his instruments for judgment. “The Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it” (Jer. 50:42; 51:11). We know from the book of Daniel that the Medes were instrumental in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom (Daniel 5:31; 9:1).
Here, then, is another example of “The Day of the Lord” in ancient times.
4. JERUSALEM. The prophet Joel warned of God’s judgement that was to come upon Jerusalem and Judah. The time of judgment was called The Day of the Lord. “Alas for the day! for The Day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15). “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion... for The Day Of The Lord cometh. for it is nigh at hand” (Joel 2:1). At this time, the temple built by Solomon was still standing as seen by references to the meat and drink offerings, the priests, porch, and altar of the house of the Lord.
We know that the judgment of The Day of the Lord which was “at hand”, did come to pass when Jerusalem was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzar and the temple destroyed (2 Chron. 36). All of this is now ancient history. The Babylonian army that was to come against Jerusalem was such that there would not be the like “even to the years of many generations” (Joel 2:2). This fact also places the fulfillment generations before the end-time, not something to occur at the very end of time.
Zephaniah had also warned of this destruction. “I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem... for The Day Of The Lord is at hand . .the great Day Of The Lord is near” (Zeph. 1:4,7,14).
Following this destruction which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar, Jeremiah wrote: "The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets.. .thou hast slain them in the DAY of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied. Thou hast slain them in the Day of thine anger... so that In the Day of the Lord’s anger none escaped nor remained” (Lam. 2:20-22).

The “day of the Lord” which came upon Jerusalem In the days of Nebuchadnezzar is obviously past, fulfilled.

But how does all of this tie in with the prophecy quoted by Peter on the day of Pentecost? Just this: since the expression “day of the Lord” was used to describe that destruction which came upon Jerusalem in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, it is not unreasonable to believe this same term could be used to describe the destruction which came upon Jerusalem in 70A.D. Therefore, when Peter quoted the prophecy from Joel—he was not taking it out of its proper setting. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit had come, and within a few years judgment—“the “day of the Lord”—was destined to fall upon that city and nation. All of this is now history.

But, some might point out, what Peter quoted from Joel spoke of the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood. Would not this refer to the very end of time? No, for expressions about the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, and the stars falling from heaven, were commonly used by the old Testament prophets as figures of speech, in fact, this very wording was used in each of the four “day of the Lord” examples we have given and shown to be Past! In none of these cases did the literal sun quit shining or did the literal stars fall to the earth.

The overthrow of Edom was predicted in these words; “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down” (Isaiah 34:4). Of course the literal sun, moon, and stars were not dissolved.
The judgments which came upon Egypt in the days of Nebuchadnezzar were described with the same figure of speech: “The day shall be darkened” for Egypt (Ez. 30:18), and concerning her king, “I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark” (Ezekiel 32:7,8).
The same figure of speech was used concerning the ancient judgment upon Babylon: “The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened. ..the moon shall not cause her light to shine” (Is. 13:10).
And so on...........

Ralph Woodrow. His Truth is Marching On.

Long Post . I'll take just one Babylon. Isaiah's writing the time is "near" was about 200 years before Babylon was defeated by the Medes (Persia). 200 or 2000 years is not "near" to our understanding. It's apocalyptic language , it doesn't mean the events in Revelation has occurred in 70 AD which they clearly did not :
No Beast with "fatal head wound that was healed" No False Prophet who "called down fire in presence of the 1st Beast". No image of the Beast "that speaks". No two witnesses who are murdered , lie unburied for 3.5 days and then are raised in front of the City
I could go on but I'm sure you know this

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

Berean Tim said:
Long Post . I'll take just one Babylon. Isaiah's writing the time is "near" was about 200 years before Babylon was defeated by the Medes (Persia). 200 or 2000 years is not "near" to our understanding. It's apocalyptic language , it doesn't mean the events in Revelation has occurred in 70 AD which they clearly did not :
No Beast with "fatal head wound that was healed" No False Prophet who "called down fire in presence of the 1st Beast". No image of the Beast "that speaks". No two witnesses who are murdered , lie unburied for 3.5 days and then are raised in front of the City
I could go on but I'm sure you know this

You are taking the symbols literally instead of what they represent.

Neogaia777 · Sep 9, 2019

Berean Tim said:
Long Post . I'll take just one Babylon. Isaiah's writing the time is "near" was about 200 years before Babylon was defeated by the Medes (Persia). 200 or 2000 years is not "near" to our understanding. It's apocalyptic language , it doesn't mean the events in Revelation has occurred in 70 AD which they clearly did not :
No Beast with "fatal head wound that was healed" No False Prophet who "called down fire in presence of the 1st Beast". No image of the Beast "that speaks". No two witnesses who are murdered , lie unburied for 3.5 days and then are raised in front of the City
I could go on but I'm sure you know this

Not if they are taken literally anyway, and as you said it is written in, what you called "apocalyptic" (symobolic, metaphorical, etc) language...?

Ricky M · Sep 9, 2019

Dave L said:
You are taking the symbols literally instead of what they represent.

Is the word of God not big enough to be literal and figurative at the same time?

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 9, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
no prophecy is of any private interpretation and your interpretations could never be made using an inductive method and certainly could be labeled a private interpretation. Do not be led into every wind of doctrine... you had to be taught this idea and with a concordance and Bible you would never come to this but would have to be led to it. The literal view can be deduced inductively. The fact is Israel is a nation and they have plans and prepared everything for the next temple already. The stage is set for a world government to rise and one that has every literal aspect of a Satanic government. This is a great evidence that the future view is correct. If Israel did not raise the flag then perhaps you would have had a better argument. Now they are there and the perilous times have come and the global scope of the literal events is very much in focus. This should cause one to reflect weather the historical view may be the one in error.

And I am saying to you. You are falsely prophesying the future. The fruit of which, if it runs its full course; is death and destruction for multitudes.

Dave L · Sep 9, 2019

Ricky M said:
Is the word of God not big enough to be literal and figurative at the same time?

Do you expect any red dragons floating in earth's orbit any time soon?

Did we miss our turn somewhere?

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