we are ALL PREDESTINED

BNR32FAN said:

The Father enables us to repent and come to Him.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:44‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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Bobber said:

I'd suggest it's more like this. Water boils at 212F. When a certain state is duplicated the results become the same. God knows at what point things are. I believe it comes when God would no longer be good to allow things to continue one more moment that's when judgement comes.

God is long suffering but it has length and can be measured. Long suffering is good. But it also becomes good for it to eventually end. It's just to allow culture time to repent but becomes unjust to allow evil to continue on forever. One thing critics in the world actually ask is if God is loving and just why doesn't he stop evil from existing?

They feel a loving God wouldn't allow it. Well the fact is he has it a part of the plan to put an end of evil but there's a timetable for doing so. Both are good. Long suffering is good but there comes a line where judgement becomes the good thing.

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The Righterzpen said:

Hebrews 11:7:
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

And here is the sticking point of this whole thread. Where does the faith come from?



Now are you speaking here of those who endure God's wrath, or those who are predestine unto redemption.

Predestination is not product of "God foresaw down the corridors of time that they would choose Him". Those elect unto redemption were elect from the foundation of the world. Not because God "saw faith in them"; because none of us have faith. That is not something we can muster out of ourselves.

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BNR32FAN said:

I’m saying God calls all men to repentance.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s a subtle indication of this in John 6:37 that our English translations doesn’t convey effectively.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the way Jesus says this. Why didn’t He just say all that The Father gives Me will come to Me and I will certainly not cast them out? Notice He adds this part “and the one who COMES to me I will certainly not cast out”. Now look at the definition of the Greek word érchomai which is translated to the English word comes or cometh.

cometh

G2064


Lemma:

ἔρχομαι


Transliteration:

érchomai


Pronounce:

el'-tho


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one


Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

The Greek word érchomai is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense meaning only those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out. That is why He worded it this way and didn’t leave this part out of His statement. If all that The Father gives to Him He will certainly not cast out then the portion of the verse that says “and the one who comes to Me” is unnecessary and redundant. There’s a reason He worded it that way. The one who comes to Him presently and continuously is abiding in Him like He explained in John 15:1-10. Anyone who does not abide in Him (does not continue to come) is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. John 15:6 So we have a discrepancy here between Calvinist doctrine and John 15:2 and John 15:6. John 15:2 Jesus says The Father cuts off every branch IN ME (in Christ) that does not bear fruit. According to the doctrine of total depravity if these branches are not elected by God they cannot be in Christ to begin with, but Jesus says they are in Him. According to the doctrine of irresistible grace these branches cannot be cut off to the point of loss of salvation. Again we see the same dilemma in John 15:6. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. In order for a branch to stay, remain, or continue to remain in Christ they must first be in Christ. A person cannot stay or remain somewhere they have never been and they cannot continue something they have not begun. So how can branches who are not elected by God abide in Christ if they are incapable of being in Christ to begin with? And according to irresistible grace how can branches who are chosen by God fail to abide in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? According to Calvinist doctrines this is an impossibility but yet Jesus says this is possible even for His 11 faithful apostles who we all know were undoubtedly true believers.

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The Righterzpen said:

If God doesn't irresistibly quicken some; no one is redeemed.



Why would He be? LOL - I got nothing holy God would ever want or need.



Nope!



Nope - if He was, they would be.

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The Righterzpen said:

Question for you? Why are you so hostile to this? Why do you care if anyone else believes in "calvinism"? If you're so convinced your arminian gospel is the truth; why should you care what anyone else believes? Do you have these kinds of arguments with Muslims and Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons?

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BNR32FAN said:

We don’t have to have faith now in order for God to foresee our faith in the future.

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corinth77777 said:

"All who have Learned from the father..."
So one can also say those who have not learned, God does not draw to the son.
Right?

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corinth77777 said:

Love it! There is some good stuffing here
We are the light of the world
We are representatives
Part of having joy and peace is dependent upon us remaining in Him...
Also in my opinionation, part of a saved or delivered conscience is dependent upon that peace....or being reconciled. But one is reconciled in order to have an ongoing relationship...
That last statement brings me back to...
The fact that what ever is inside the kingdom is exercise outside the kingdom...I believe the middle ground where they both meet is the place where God justifies...And I'm one of those who believe ...based on my own deliverence... that to be protected and under God's wing, or in His hiding place, or to be delivered or saved in this present world it takes obedience to God's commands....
We cannot come to God any kind of way...
If we sin...or are not inlignment with The Faith
Repentance is necessary...
Its shown in many stories of the Old...that God is not the God of the dead but of the living...So you must come alive...and meet Him where He can justify you...Reminds me of a scripture...If you seek him with your whole heart you will find Him. Someone else might say or He will find you....

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BNR32FAN said:

I disagree because Jesus said

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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corinth77777 said:

Anyone that does righteous is acceptable to God yes?
So then your statement would be...while Jesus was on earth God the father drew men to Him. Right...But while He received the Glory back He had before .....Now He draws?
Am I correct..
Is not there a Father and a Son? That is God?

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corinth77777 said:

I believe the key is...the System, Christ who was before the foundation of the world....another way of saying it...is when He says, "I am that I am" or I am Alpha and Omega....It is God who is Faithful.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God ...
And God is God.
My opinionation ....
Is that the word Chose is referring to all who are in Christ. All those who are in Christ are chosen to comform to the image of His son.
Meaning He had a plan in place before we enter Into the world for those who would come to Him, so if you just got IN HIM TODAY AND JUMPED INTO HIS WILL...YOU WERE CHOSE. AND ITS NOT BECAUSE WHO YOU ARE BUT WHO YOU ARE IN HIM. HEY ITS ALMOST LIKE JUMPING INTO TIME....
OF COURSE THAT IS MY OPININATION.
Did God have to see our faith? Or to see his faithfulness?

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corinth77777 said:

Anyone that does righteous is acceptable to God yes?
So then your statement would be...while Jesus was on earth God the father drew men to Him. Right...But while He received the Glory back He had before .....Now He draws?
Am I correct..
Is not there a Father and a Son? That is God?

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BNR32FAN said:

I think this is an interesting passage on this subject.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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BNR32FAN said:

My point is that I believe in the Orthodox idea of ancestral sin not total depravity. The difference is that we inherited Adam’s fallen nature but not the guilt of his sin. Our fallen state is the result of the inherited nature which results in our guilt of our own sins not the guilt of Adam’s sin.

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BNR32FAN said:

I think the “chosen” is referring to those who were written in the book of life and they were chosen by God foreseeing that they would repent. There’s two different ways I perceive eternal security. One is that those who are written in the book of life will undoubtedly be saved. I don’t believe the book of life will ever be edited. I don’t believe names will be blotted out. On the other three hand I believe the names were written in the book of life according to God’s foreknowledge of who would repent and abide in Christ. So we are still in control of our fate in the sense that we are acting out by our own free will what God has already foreseen. So a person can be on the path to being written in the book of life but veer away from that path and as a result they were not written in the book of life before creation. In this sense the person lost the salvation they would’ve received had they stayed on the path and abided in Christ. I believe as of now we have the hope and promise of salvation but our salvation is thru God’s covenant with man. If we fail to keep the requirements of the covenant then we void the agreement and lose that promise of salvation. I don’t believe we actually receive salvation until we either die or Jesus returns.

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BNR32FAN said:

We don’t have to have faith now in order for God to foresee our faith in the future.

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BNR32FAN said:

I think the “chosen” is referring to those who were written in the book of life and they were chosen by God foreseeing that they would repent. There’s two different ways I perceive eternal security. One is that those who are written in the book of life will undoubtedly be saved. I don’t believe the book of life will ever be edited. I don’t believe names will be blotted out. On the other three hand I believe the names were written in the book of life according to God’s foreknowledge of who would repent and abide in Christ. So we are still in control of our fate in the sense that we are acting out by our own free will what God has already foreseen. So a person can be on the path to being written in the book of life but veer away from that path and as a result they were not written in the book of life before creation. In this sense the person lost the salvation they would’ve received had they stayed on the path and abided in Christ. I believe as of now we have the hope and promise of salvation but our salvation is thru God’s covenant with man. If we fail to keep the requirements of the covenant then we void the agreement and lose that promise of salvation. I don’t believe we actually receive salvation until we either die or Jesus returns.

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The Righterzpen said:

Nowhere in any of the passages that it talks about foreknowing does it does it say that foreknowledge is of someone's faith.

The word "foreknowledge" comes from two Greek words "pro" "gnosis"; which we get our word "prognosis" from. (Interesting)

"gnosis" means to be familiar with something or someone. The Gnostics were of a certain sect who believed they were privy to secret knowledge. This word foreknowledge is not used solely speaking of God's foreknowledge.

This word is used 5 places in the Bible:
Acts 26:5 - People who "knew" Paul "before" knew him as a pharisee of a stringent sect.
Romans 8:29 - For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son that he (the Son) might be the first born among many brethren.
Romans 11:2 - God has not cast away His people which He foreknew.
1 Peter 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you.
2 Peter 3:17 - Ye therefore beloved, seeing you knew these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Now of those 5 passages; Romans 8:29 and 1st Peter are the ones that talk of the foreknowledge of God as it relates to being predestine to salvation. Romans 11 is talking about who is the real Israel.

Romans 8:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered.

27 And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

1 Peter 1:20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abides for ever.

Note the beginning of verse 21. Verse 20 speaks of Jesus being foreordained from the foundation of the world to be manifest in these last times. "Who by HIM do believe in God. Jesus was the vehicle where by men believe. Faith is a byproduct of being atoned for.

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