Almighty God the Son, second person of the Godhead also called Michael

Gary K · Mar 12, 2019

Dave-W said:
Sorry - but to get more specific than what I have said ends up in heresy. How that works; One God, Three Persons, Seven Spirits; is beyond our comprehension and IMO God does not intend us to understand it in this existence.

OK. Thanks for the explanation. I sort of understand now where you're coming from and that was the purpose of my dialog with you.

tall73 · Mar 17, 2019

EJ M said:
1 Thess 4:15-18; Michael will announce Jesus' second coming;
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Some would note John 5 indicates it is the voice of the Son which the dead hear, and therefore would draw a parallel from this:

26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jude, verse 9;
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Why would Michael say "The Lord rebuke thee" if he were Lord? (Which Jesus is!)

The difficulty here is Zechariah 3 where the Lord does say such:

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

To me a question that needs to be answered is how Michael is ONE of the chief princes if Michael is Jesus:

13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

Another question I think would need to be answered is whether the prefix ἀρχ- can be used to denote someone who is over a class, but not of a class.

So for instance,

ἀρχιτελώνης - chief tax collector is still a tax collector (Luke 19:2)

ἀρχιτέκτων- chief builder is still a builder (I Corinthians 3:10)

ἀρχιποίμενος - Chief Shepherd, is still a shepherd (figuratively in this case), (I Peter 5:4)

ἀρχιερεῖς - chief priests are still priests (many examples).

So it would seem that an archangel would most likely be an angel, and not just a being above the angels.

Gary K · Mar 22, 2019

tall73 said:
Some would note John 5 indicates it is the voice of the Son which the dead hear, and therefore would draw a parallel from this:

26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The difficulty here is Zechariah 3 where the Lord does say such:

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

To me a question that needs to be answered is how Michael is ONE of the chief princes if Michael is Jesus:

13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

Another question I think would need to be answered is whether the prefix ἀρχ- can be used to denote someone who is over a class, but not of a class.

So for instance,

ἀρχιτελώνης - chief tax collector is still a tax collector (Luke 19:2)

ἀρχιτέκτων- chief builder is still a builder (I Corinthians 3:10)

ἀρχιποίμενος - Chief Shepherd, is still a shepherd (figuratively in this case), (I Peter 5:4)

ἀρχιερεῖς - chief priests are still priests (many examples).

So it would seem that an archangel would most likely be an angel, and not just a being above the angels.

The entire problem, as I see it, with all of your reasoning is that the Bible refers to God as "the Angel of the Lord" in Judges 13. It's the story of Samson's parents being told that they were going to have a child. The "angel" in the story accepts an offering given to God by consuming it with fire and then rising in the flames to heaven. In verse 21 Manoah tells his wife that they have seen God after their offering is accepted.

tall73 · Mar 22, 2019

Gary K said:
The entire problem, as I see it, with all of your reasoning is that the Bible refers to God as "the Angel of the Lord" in Judges 13. It's the story of Samson's parents being told that they were going to have a child. The "angel" in the story accepts an offering given to God by consuming it with fire and then rising in the flames to heaven. In verse 21 Manoah tells his wife that they have seen God after their offering is accepted.

You will have to spell that out more. I included points that could argue both for and against.

Gary K · Mar 25, 2019

tall73 said:
So it would seem that an archangel would most likely be an angel, and not just a being above the angels.

It's your summation of your post that led me to say what I did.

The Bible is it's own best interpreter, and as the Bible has named God as an angel in the story of Samson's birth other use cases of that terminology are very likely. Now let's look at the dictionary definition of a prince.

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Prince Prince, n. [F., from L. princeps, -cipis, the first,
chief; primus first + capere to take. See Prime, a., and
Capacious.]
1. The one of highest rank; one holding the highest place and
authority; a sovereign; a monarch; -- originally applied
to either sex, but now rarely applied to a female.
--Wyclif (Rev. i. 5).
[1913 Webster]

Go, Michael, of celestial armies prince. --Milton.
[1913 Webster]

Queen Elizabeth, a prince admirable above her sex.
--Camden.
[1913 Webster]

2. The son of a king or emperor, or the issue of a royal
family; as, princes of the blood. --Shak.
[1913 Webster]

3. A title belonging to persons of high rank, differing in
different countries. In England it belongs to dukes,
marquises, and earls, but is given to members of the royal
family only. In Italy a prince is inferior to a duke as a
member of a particular order of nobility; in Spain he is
always one of the royal family.
[1913 Webster]

4. The chief of any body of men; one at the head of a class
or profession; one who is pre["e]minent; as, a merchant
prince; a prince of players. "The prince of learning."
--Peacham.
[1913 Webster]

The most common definition of a prince is a son of the King, a member of the royal family. That, in Biblical terms, can refer only to Jesus. Also, Daniel 12:1, in which Daniel speaks of Michael, can only be Jesus for it is He who stands up for His people. No angel has ever been made one with us. Only Jesus.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Only God can initiate end time events that are the precursor of His coming. No angel has that authority.

tall73 · Mar 25, 2019

Gary K said:
The Bible is it's own best interpreter, and as the Bible has named God as an angel

Gary K said:
Only God can initiate end time events that are the precursor of His coming. No angel has that authority.

I am not sure I am understanding you. You indicated that God is named as an angel by Scripture. then you say that only God can initiate time events and that no angel has that authority. How do you reconcile those two statements?

tall73 · Mar 25, 2019

Condensed into one post above.

tall73 · Mar 25, 2019

Gary K said:
The most common definition of a prince is a son of the King, a member of the royal family. That, in Biblical terms, can refer only to Jesus.

So then how is he ONE of the chief princes if it can only refer to Jesus?

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Gary K · Mar 27, 2019

tall73 said:
I am not sure I am understanding you. You indicated that God is named as an angel by Scripture. then you say that only God can initiate time events and that no angel has that authority. How do you reconcile those two statements?

You're kind of pulling my leg, right? Jesus has many titles in scripture. Does any one of them define Him completely?

Show me from scripture that what I said is not true. Here is the evidence for it in one place:

Judges 13:3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

....

10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the otherday.
11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.

....

19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
23 But his wife said unto him, If the Lord were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.

Will you refute the evidence of scripture? Manoah and his wife clearly made an offering to God, and the "angel" accepted their worship. For someone who was, in fact, an angel to accept worship due only to God would make the "angel of the Lord" a devil for that has been the devil's motive for rebellion from the time he fell. He has always wanted the worship due only to God. So, the "angel of the Lord" in the story of Samson's birth has to be either God, the devil, or one of the devil's angels. There can be no other conclusion drawn from this story as to the identity of the "angel of the Lord".

The only logical conclusion I can draw from Judges 13 is the Bible called Jesus the "angel of the Lord" for Jesus identifies Himself as the person who communicated with the children of Israel and the prophets of old. He is the I AM of the OT. Thus, "the angel of the Lord" is simply, at least in this instance, just another title for Jesus in His pre-incarnate form. I see Michael is being no different. It is simply another title given to Jesus. And, as with the rest of His titles, it is not a complete definition of who He is. It simply defines His role at a given time in the plan of salvation.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2019

tall73 · Mar 27, 2019

Gary K said:
You're kind of pulling my leg, right? Jesus has many titles in scripture. Does any one of them define Him completely?

I am not pulling your leg. You indicated that Jesus was designated an angel, then said that no angel could initiate such a process.

But it appears you are saying that he was not in fact an angel, but that one of His titles was Angel of the Lord. In that case, we are back to the question of whether the archangel can be of a category separate from angels.

tall73 · Mar 27, 2019

Gary K said:
I see Michael is being no different. It is simply another title given to Jesus. And, as with the rest of His titles, it is not a complete definition of who He is. It simply defines His role at a given time in the plan of salvation.

How do you reconcile Michael being ONE of the chief princes?

Gary K · Mar 30, 2019

tall73 said:
I am not pulling your leg. You indicated that Jesus was designated an angel, then said that no angel could initiate such a process.

But it appears you are saying that he was not in fact an angel, but that one of His titles was Angel of the Lord. In that case, we are back to the question of whether the archangel can be of a category separate from angels.

I have never said Jesus was an angel. I have said from the very beginning the Bible called Him an angel. If you want to dispute that go ahead and dispute it. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. You can forget that. It's just not going to happen.

tall73 · Mar 30, 2019

Gary K said:
I have never said Jesus was an angel. I have said from the very beginning the Bible called Him an angel. If you want to dispute that go ahead and dispute it. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. You can forget that. It's just not going to happen.

Trying to understand what you are saying is not trying to go in circles.

How do you explain Michael being called ONE of the chief princes?

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

reddogs · May 31, 2019

Thistle0Sifter said:
hrm.....
....aside from the facts that that being was the commander of the Lord's army and also accepted worship.....

and:
"“christrophany,” no need for a special term (else all appearances of the Son in a body were thus), It simply WAS the Lord, in body, the Son specifically, in His true/original (Heavenly) form.
Being the commander of the army of the Lord AND accepting worship could be no other than Michael AND Christ. Pure logic reduces to be unable to be any other.

True, but some need it written out and stamped with mans seal of absolute certainty and thus hard to accept most of the scriptures.

JLB777 · May 31, 2019

Thistle0Sifter said:
Then you could say Christ said nothing against homosexuality,
or against abortion, or against child rape, or that that it what not a sin to kill the Son of Man because that *specifically* was not prohibited.
It just requires the assemblage of the sort:
statement 1: a is b
statement 2: b is c
conclusion: a is c

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:39-44

Murder is sin, a violation of the fifth commandment.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Homosexuality is a sin.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

Child rape is a sin.

JLB

reddogs · May 31, 2019

If its a perversion I think that is evident

BobRyan · Sep 6, 2019

JLB777 said:
Still no scriptures that say YHWH Calls Himself Michael.
Jesus was called The Angel of the Lord before He became flesh.
This is not to be confused with the created angel Michael.
JLB

1. "Jesus" is not the name God the Son had in heaven before coming to Earth.
2. Dan 10 "Michael your PRINCE" Dan 10:21

21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Dan 12
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;

Is 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel [Michael], and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” 1 Thess 4:16

3. Captain of the LORD's Hosts -

Rev 12 "Michael and HIS angels"
Heb 1 "let all the Angels of God worship Him" - (the Son)

Josh 5
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Josh. 5: 13-15

Ex 3 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.” Acts. 7: 30-33

====================

Just as God appears to Abraham as a man (God the Son appeared as a man to Abraham see John 1) in Genesis 18:1-5 as a man -- yet we all know that ontologically God is not in fact human. So also the two angels with him that day also appeared "as men" to Abraham according to the text.

YeshuaFan · Sep 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
1. "Jesus" is not the name God the Son had in heaven before coming to Earth.
2. Dan 10 "Michael your PRINCE" Dan 10:21

21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Dan 12
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;

Is 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice

From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel [Michael], and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” 1 Thess 4:16

3. Captain of the LORD's Hosts -

Rev 12 "Michael and HIS angels"
Heb 1 "let all the Angels of God worship Him" - (the Son)

Josh 5
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Josh. 5: 13-15

Ex 3 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.” Acts. 7: 30-33

====================

Just as God appears to Abraham as a man (God the Son appeared as a man to Abraham see John 1) in Genesis 18:1-5 as a man -- yet we all know that ontologically God is not in fact human. So also the two angels with him that day also appeared "as men" to Abraham according to the text.

Micheal was a created archangel, while Jesus was and is eternal God!

BobRyan · Sep 18, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
Micheal was a created archangel, while Jesus was and is eternal God!

Or??

Jesus is God the Son incarnate - to be incarnate is to be formed/created/ in human flesh. The humanity of Christ did not exist at all 10 years before it was created. Even so God the Son is eternal.

Michael is the name given to God the Son in his function as warrior as we see in Rev 12 and Dan 10. He was not "incarnate" as an angel - He merely took a form like that just as in Genesis 18 He "took the form" of a man when He appeared to Abraham and scripture says "3 men" were coming toward Abraham.

Gen 18
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

God the Son was not a man in Gen 18 , He simply appeared in that form to Abraham.

Almighty God the Son, second person of the Godhead also called Michael

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