we are ALL PREDESTINED

corinth77777

learner
Nov 15, 2013
3,089
441
✟99,135.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi, I'm not sure if I actually even said that...however..scripture does say Faith and Love are in Christ. Location
Just thought of something else
Why did Jesus say to His disciple ye of little faith....was it in the boat...when the storm came...I think...let me look it up...
Ok yes,

I found this, "(1) When I place my faith in Jesus, the Greek reads: pisteuo eis ton Iesoun (eis + Accusative=’into Jesus’)
(2) When talking about Jesus’ God-given faith, the Greek reads: pistis tou Iesou (Genitive=’faith of Jesus’)"
Crucified with Christ
 
Upvote 0

corinth77777

learner
Nov 15, 2013
3,089
441
✟99,135.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Just thought of something else
Why did Jesus say to His disciple ye of little faith....was it in the boat...when the storm came...I think...let me look it up...
Ok yes,

I found this, "(1) When I place my faith in Jesus, the Greek reads: pisteuo eis ton Iesoun (eis + Accusative=’into Jesus’)
(2) When talking about Jesus’ God-given faith, the Greek reads: pistis tou Iesou (Genitive=’faith of Jesus’)"
Crucified with Christ
Wow whoever started this post...I'm greatful
God is just opening up some areas if my understanding.
Because now I have to go back to..St John 3;16
And Gal 2;16 to interpret
The faith of Jesus for example...is what God gives in Christ....which takes me back to a passage...where Jesus say...He obeyed the father...and the father did the work....

Thanks all for allowing me to participate

The whole previous journey of understanding justification was wrong..

Tks God...you are so good to me
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
4848 [e] 1161 [e] 846 [e]
25 Συνεπορεύοντο δὲ αὐτῷ
Were going with then Him
V-IIM/P-3P Conj PPro-DM3S

You didn't click the link and read the Greek with the English translation underneath it. You just read what the link said. You need to be a little less lazy about this!



You'd be surprised. I don't know what the stats of incest abuse are; but roughly 25% of women and 20% of men are sexually abused before they reach 18 years old. Of females who are abused, only about 10% go into counseling and of the 10% who go into counseling, only 1% stay long enough for it have a positive impact on their mental health. Of the 1% who stay in counseling less than 1/2% of them break ties with the family. I am 48 years old. I have been in counseling pretty steady since I was 13. I fairly regularly attended Al-Anon for about 25 years. I would be considered a success case in the mental health field. I am a statistical anomaly.







You didn't actually read what I wrote; or certainly didn't read it very carefully. I can tell because you are still toting the same "can't hate your family" line you've been toting. And (unless I'm mistaken and you really aren't as intelligent as I think you are); if you'd carefully read what was written, you would not be accusing me of what you are accusing me of.

Well why doesn't one english translation add then to it! And if then is correct- then is not connecting it to the banquets the pharisee held in his house and teh great crowds following Jesus!

And I have not seen you state that you do not believe that hate does not mean loathe or detest. If you did I missed it! There have been many lengthy answers here and other threrads, so it is possible I missed you recanting that Jesus was saying you had to loathe and detest your family (as it is biblically defined) in order to be His disciple.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But if your free will believes and then your free will does not believe while God just sits up in heaven waiting to see if you believe again; explain to me how that is not: "Nobody ever said man has the final say." ?
God is the final judge. He gets the final say in who is really saved and who isn't, because he alone knows our hearts. It's funny you see freewill in that way when God is the one who sovereignly gave us free will. Man is only free because God is sovereign.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

The Greek word érchomai is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense meaning only those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out. That is why He worded it this way and didn’t leave this part out of His statement. If all that The Father gives to Him He will certainly not cast out then the portion of the verse that says “and the one who comes to Me” is unnecessary and redundant. There’s a reason He worded it that way. The one who comes to Him presently and continuously is abiding in Him like He explained in John 15:1-10. Anyone who does not abide in Him (does not continue to come) is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. John 15:6 So we have a discrepancy here between Calvinist doctrine and John 15:2 and John 15:6. John 15:2 Jesus says The Father cuts off every branch IN ME (in Christ) that does not bear fruit. According to the doctrine of total depravity if these branches are not elected by God they cannot be in Christ to begin with, but Jesus says they are in Him. According to the doctrine of irresistible grace these branches cannot be cut off to the point of loss of salvation. Again we see the same dilemma in John 15:6. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. In order for a branch to stay, remain, or continue to remain in Christ they must first be in Christ. A person cannot stay or remain somewhere they have never been and they cannot continue something they have not begun. So how can branches who are not elected by God abide in Christ if they are incapable of being in Christ to begin with? And according to irresistible grace how can branches who are chosen by God fail to abide in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? According to Calvinist doctrines this is an impossibility but yet Jesus says this is possible even for His 11 faithful apostles who we all know were undoubtedly true believers.

I don't know where you got this grammar notation but it is wrong.

Draw in John 6 is the present, passive deponent, participle You cannot have a present imperfect tense.
John 6 says simply anyone who is coming to Jesus (simple statement of action) will not be cast out!


I’m saying God calls all men to repentance.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s a subtle indication of this in John 6:37 that our English translations doesn’t convey effectively.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the way Jesus says this. Why didn’t He just say all that The Father gives Me will come to Me and I will certainly not cast them out? Notice He adds this part “and the one who COMES to me I will certainly not cast out”. Now look at the definition of the Greek word érchomai which is translated to the English word comes or cometh.

Yes the call for all to repent is legitimate, but given the rest of Scriptures and those in the flesh are incapable of true repentance there is something else going on!

JOhn 6:37 is better translated thusly:

All teh Father gives to me will arrive to me (come -heko) and those who leave one polace and arrive to me (erchomai) I will not cast out.


For John 12:32 the word all is "pantas" which is a form of "the all" and not all. What this means is that when Jesus is lifted up- He will draw the all to himself. An English example of this is:

Did you invite ALL the children to the party? This does not mean every child everywhere but all of a specific group! And almost without exdeption when all is pantas, pantos or a derivative liek this- it means the all of a specific group!
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Men choose! They have a say. God has the ultimate say of what their outcome will be.

Long suffering has dimensions.

When it reaches it's end so does that stipulation or qualifier mentioned prior.

God had his say from the start! But here's what he said...."Whosoever may come" Open invitation!

I can see that you honesty don't see where your theology contradicts itself.


Unless you're going to try to claim your prayer was, "If it be your will save them! If it be your will save them!"

That's EXACTLY what my prayer was!

So how would that not even be an action to move God to do something.

I'm comforted by the fact that I know God's will is done; regardless of what out come I see in this life. If I pray for something that obviously was not in God's will because it didn't come to pass; I'm OK with that, because He's still God.

Now just because something I pray for doesn't come to pass, does't mean I'm happy about the outcome; but my hope is still in Him alone! It's not about my will; it's ALL about His! Christ being my example - that too was His outlook!

If according to you he already made his decisions than what's the purpose of your prayer? But than as a Calvinist you fall back and say to get YOU to accept it....What?

I've also told you that for me the purpose of prayer is that I don't always know what God's will is. I don't know who the elect are; so I pray: "God if it be Your will to save them; I'm confident that You will, so I let it go and leave it in Your hands!" I'll never be outside of God's will if that's what I pray!

So why do you Calvinists say you're praying for them?

We are told to pray that God's will be done and since we often don't know what that is; we petition God and eventually based on what comes to pass, we find out what His will is.

You need to consider that you don't understand the full spectrum of the subject and theme of prayer.

Only according to your theology. But according to my theology; there's absolutely nothing wrong with my prayer life! And I confidently say that with God as my witness.

The only thing I see that I lack at times; is even MORE trust! Yeah, I get frustrated and yell at doctors. Yet, if that's what it takes to bring about God's will in this situation; I'm coming to the conclusion that's OK too.

I'm learning persistence is often what accomplishes God's will in the end! He's giving me the presence of mind to persist. Keep putting one foot in front of the other; don't give up; you are MINE! I will make good on MY promise that your life has a purpose! You did not suffer in vain. I WILL use you as a testimony to MY SOVEREIGN GRACE. MY word will not return unto ME void. This thread isn't just an argument about free will. MY elect are reading this! The power of MY faith imparted to you, is what MY elect will see and MY FAITHFULNESS is what gives them comfort! Just as you seeing MY faithfulness gives you comfort!

And what ever the outcome is (in any situation); I can say with confidence "I've run the good race. I've fought the good fight." I've done all I could. I've exhausted every possibility. I can rest in the fact that I know; this outcome (whether it's what I desired or not) is God's will!

My goal in life is that my life be ALL about HIM!

I and others could be the best friend you've got to bring to your attention other things about prayer. Not sharing them is most unkind.

3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.

4 And when he putts forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

MY sheep hear MY voice! (John 10)

But look you've come on here and you're injecting your personal life situations and speaking of them as a criteria we should use to define scriptural truth.

My life, (in so much as it displays the faithfulness of God) is an example of how Scriptural truth operates in the elect. This is why I share it.

If there's things you're not genuinely understanding about prayer your circumstances don't change that fact.

The elect see. The non elect don't. I pray for God's wisdom to communicate HIS gospel clearly.

37 years ago I had a similar experience with one of my children. She was in the hospital for about 6 months and had various surgeries. There was concerns she might not make it as well.

I'm glad your daughter survived. What do you say to the parents who's kids don't?

I met a pastor at a convention a couple of years after I got out military who's 12 year old son had died of cancer. He'd had pictures of his son's funeral; which included the child laid out in an open casket.

Me, as a 20 something who didn't understand what it was like to lose a child, said some things about the open casket that weren't considerate of the family's feelings. Later on, I heard another parent (who I knew well) talking about "someone said to them...... which was very hurtful....". After this, I went back and apologized to the father; explaining that I had no idea what it was like to lose a kid. I'd heard from someone else that what I said hurt you guys and I want to apologize for that.

The testimony he gave in response to my apology blew me away. He thanked me for my apology and said they'd decided to have an open casket because death is real. Many people are uncomfortable with looking at dead children. But it reminds us that sin has real consequences. He said his son was a believer and had first been diagnosed with cancer when he was about 5. He'd been through several rounds of treatment and when the cancer came back the last time; the kid said to his parents: "I don't want to do this any more. I'm ready to go home." So that's what the family decided. The child received hospice care and they let him die. The doctors agree with the family's decision and they prepared to bury him.

The father said that security in the sovereignty of God is what kept him sane. His son didn't die in vain; he's now with Christ. The kid faced his end in security; in the understanding that this was God's will. He was a testimony to God's faithfulness to sustain His people, even in a 12 year old facing death!

I asked the dad about his own feelings looking back at all this. He admitted his son dying was emotionally very hard on him. They are there one day and gone the next. It's not an experience he'd wish on anyone. His kid was whole now. His kid was home now; and though he still dealt with the emotional repercussions of the loss; he said: I agree with Job. Though He slay me. Still I trust in Him!

I walked away from that conference saying: "God, that's the kind of believer I want to be!" I may not like the outcome; (I haven't liked the outcome of a lot of things that have happened) but God, I want You to use my life, so other's see who You are, powerfully displayed in the ability of Your sovereign will to hold your people secure!

Because I suggest to you there may be some things about prayer and destiny you're not rightly understanding?

No, I rightly understand the power of God's faithfulness to securely hold me!

We're to close our mouths and just let you influence others to your way of thinking because it's taboo to respectfully challenge someone when they bring up their personal story. Look if you're trying to influence what people think it's only fair that we have a right to respond.

You and respond all you want; you WILL NOT STOP GOD from saving HIS elect!

Well again you're being presumptuous. You know nothing, nothing, NOTHING of the trials and tests I've had in my life.

You're right, I don't. Do you care to share?

Well I'm a work in progress and I'm sure we all are.

Agreed!

You seeking to throw stones at me doesn't mean the things you're saying are truth.

The truth I speak is backed up by Scripture.

But we were talking about fatalism from the standpoint of your not believing it's right for people to ask God to change a situation. You spoke against that before suggesting we who do believe that as looking at God like a Santa Claus. Sorry but you weren't speaking in line with scripture and it's more than just to challenge you on it.

A fatalist is someone who feels that no matter what he or she does, the outcome will be the same because it's predetermined. Fatalists share a sense of being powerless to change the world.

Someone who feels that what she is compelled by God's Spirit to do, will bring about HIS predetermined outcome; is not fatalism. That's faith in God!

Now the question is DO YOU BELIEVE THAT yes or no? From everything in your writings it suggests that you do.

No, your definition of fatalism does not match my definition of faith!
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
God wiped them out because He had to in order to accomplish His plan.

Good answer! :oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup: Agreed.

He made an example of them so that His glory and might would be told throughout the centuries in order to bring more people to repentance.

I would add one more piece of information to this. I agree that He made an example out of them that His glory and might would be told throughout the centuries. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven" (Testifying to humanity that they are accountable). I also agree that the end result is that people come to repentance. The argument of this thread is about how that happens.

He had endured with them much patience to the point where there were only 8 people left in the entire world who were worthy of saving.

Not that they were worthy of saving; because no one is worthy. Noah found grace. Unmerited favor.

To me it appears that He waited as long as He could giving them every opportunity to repent and they wouldn’t.

God knew they wouldn't because He knew they were all dead in their trespass and sin.

OR - I just had a thought! We assume based on Genesis saying that the thoughts and intents of their hearts were evil continuously. Yet in order for your thoughts and intent of the heart to be evil, you have to be capable of forming a thought. This of course raises the question about infants developmentally being able to actually formulate thoughts. Obviously there were infants and likely in-utero human beings destroyed in the flood. And if you're incapable of formulating a thought, you can't formulate and evil one.

This of course raises questions on how atonement operates as it relates to humans incapable of formulating thought (as well as what possibilities of those incapable of articulating thoughts they may be having to us). Those are a whole different set of questions!

Like I posted 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants all men to repent and be saved not wanting ANY to perish. So why is it that most will perish? Is it because God has not enabled them to repent or is it because these men have condemned themselves of their own free will by choosing to reject God because of their love of evil?

It is because all humanity have condemned themselves of their own free will (which they freely sin by) And on account of both their fallen nature (assumed to be inherited from Adam) and their own sin; they are spiritually dead in that sin. Now because they are spiritually dead in that sin is why they reject God.

If these evil men perish because God has not enabled them to repent then ultimately God is responsible for their disobedience and is judging and condemning them knowing full well that they are incapable of repentance because of His choice.

Go back to Eden. Who ate the fruit they weren't suppose to? (That was not God's doing.) What was the consequence of eating that fruit? (Spiritual death). Now as the result of being spiritually dead; what are they capable of passing on to their progeny? How can a spiritually dead race produce spiritual life in their offspring?

Is every human being conceived with a "clean slate" (i.e. they are not spiritually dead)? The Scripture declares that all are under sin because all have transgressed the law. Does this mean that every human being experiences their own personal "garden of eden moment fall"?

It's a good question.

I know the concept of original sin denies this; yet God gives the breath of life to all life, which makes men "living souls". So does everyone start conditionally in the same position Adam did? If this is the case then every individual person's decline into spiritual death becomes a result of their own choice to sin. Just as happened to Adam and Eve.

Now of course this gets into the question of why Adam and Eve fell? Clearly, they fell of their own choice. Scripture says that Eve was deceived and the reason she ate the fruit is that she wanted to be wise like God. Now if we think about that for a moment; the ability of her to be wise like God is not possible because of the nature of what she is created as, being a temporal entity. To be "wise like God" would have to mean one is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal etc.

So this means the fall was inevitable based on the nature of Adam and Eve being created entities.

Now where did evil come from? That's a whole other different question!

I want to thank you for your honest response; even though we don't agree theologically on how the outcome of salvation is obtained.

You have though given me reason to go now and research the doctrine of original sin.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
But let me note....a passage

Gal 2;16..and dint quote me look it up

It goes something like this in the kjv
Even we have believed in Him...in order to be justified by the faith of Him...

Another words there is faith to believe who He is....but one must put their trust in Him where God does the Justifying of the believer

The part I only use to see....was merely believing something about Him....but the part I am now exercising is the word belief too...but actually putting trust in him.

For an example one can believe a Mechanic can fix their car....but actually bringing your car there to be fixed...is the faith..or action of faith that will confirm what it is one really believes.....and these are those chosen or determined...my word to transform to His image

Faith and Belief are generally the same word in the Greek. What does it mean to have faith or believe though? You said: "To have trust." And I think that is an accurate definition of faith.

Trust comes about as a result of being raised to spiritual life. That is an act of the Holy Spirit. Thus your previously quoted verse: "by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast" and your recognition that the faith is a gift. It's a gift that results from spiritual resurrection.

And you are correct here too; the exhibit of faith is the profession (the act of bringing the car to the mechanic as your analogy here) And those who are elect / predestine are those who exhibit this.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I agree and disagree....we all have a chose to act on what we believe....this we know: its impossible to please God without faith.

And this also is mentioned in James
And Jesus Modeled it..

Remember the devil believed....but the faith that delivers[saves]us and those we come in contact with is active...not dead...and God is the God of the living not the dead.
Therefore we are given a measure of faith...[in my opinion] to believe who He is....the Son of the most High God...in order to exercise the faith in the one we say we believe....And so this is how we come to be justified by God....through a living/walking/intending to follow faith

You make an accurate distinction that the intellectual ascent to an idea does not constitute faith. "Even the devils believe and tremble..." Note they tremble!

Faith as granted by the Living God, is living not dead. (Great way of putting it - by the way!) :oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup::oldthumbsup:

God granting to each "the measure of faith". Note the "measure of faith" is granted by God and the manifestation of that imparted measure of faith, is that we proclaim belief.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
He will enable us to what?

There are somethings we can do on our own
Grace is unmerited favor...but many favors doesn't mean that the person is inactive.

For example...I bring a gift of an exercise machine to your house...one you must accept it....and open the door, so I can bring it in....
And...another side to this that brings up another point, through this Analogy...A Doctor says in order to be delivered [saved] from heart disease you must work out on the exercise machine...which it was the reason it was given to you and a gift in the first place and a favor. Can you be saved [delivered] from heart disease according to the doctor if you do not get on it? No..you must have an interaction with it....The interaction puts you into a place where you soon can be delivered from heart disease

Another way of looking at it could be. (Using your doctor / heart disease analogy).

Spiritual awakening could be described this way: You don't know you have heart disease until something happens. That initial event of "something happening" is the spiritual resurrection from the dead that is ignited by the Holy Ghost. You're aware now. You know something is wrong. (Maybe someone took you in an ambulance to the hospital.) And now that you are aware, you are under dogged conviction that you can't just let this slide; you need to investigate this, because you know if you ignore it, your dead.

So, you go about looking to find a doctor because you know if you don't, your dead. You pursue this course of action until you get an answer. The only doctor who can help you says: "I need to do.... or you're going to die." Your automatic response is: "OK, let's get it done!" You don't sit around hemming and hawing about it because if you do; you're going to be dead!

You willfully act based on undeniable conviction that if you don't; you know you are dead!

That's redemption!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,625
7,382
Dallas
✟888,644.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not that they were worthy of saving; because no one is worthy. Noah found grace. Unmerited favor.

I agree but Noah found favor by God because of his righteousness.

“These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,625
7,382
Dallas
✟888,644.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
OR - I just had a thought! We assume based on Genesis saying that the thoughts and intents of their hearts were evil continuously. Yet in order for your thoughts and intent of the heart to be evil, you have to be capable of forming a thought. This of course raises the question about infants developmentally being able to actually formulate thoughts. Obviously there were infants and likely in-utero human beings destroyed in the flood. And if you're incapable of formulating a thought, you can't formulate and evil one.

This of course raises questions on how atonement operates as it relates to humans incapable of formulating thought (as well as what possibilities of those incapable of articulating thoughts they may be having to us). Those are a whole different set of questions!

God being both omniscient and omnipresent could foresee their future.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Well why doesn't one english translation add then to it! And if then is correct- then is not connecting it to the banquets the pharisee held in his house and teh great crowds following Jesus!

Congratulations; you have discovered the specter that hides behind every attempt to translate.

That word is translated "then"; it's just not translated "then" in any of the English translations of that particular verse. The most common words used in that verse are: "and" & "now". And they are at the beginning of the sentence because the Greek word order is different from the English word order and if you read it word for word strait translation, it doesn't read very well in English.

You could insert "then" though and it would still make contextual sense. (This happened "then" that happened.)

And here's another good piece of information to know about how the Bible is written. It behooves readers to pay close attention to detail because there's a lot of information there. And here's another clue as to answering your objection about the events being connected together.

You are correct that chapter / verse designations are added later. That's not part of the original way it was written. In the Old Testament, this becomes more of an obvious challenge because Hebrew doesn't have capital letters (it's all capital letters) or punctuation. Also, having been written in scroll format; to find the "chapter divider" you'd have to look for breaks in the way the text was laid out on the scroll. Hebrew sentences ended with a space that was bigger than the space between the words.

New Testament Greek though is set up more like modern western languages and did have capital letters. Capital letters marked the beginning of the next sentence. Also, the new testament was not written in scroll form (you probably already know this) it was written in page / letter form. So in the Greek, groups of text that were intended to go together are usually "lumped" together.

Your most common leader into the next "lump" of texts is usually: "And it came to pass....". You also see "time markers": "Three days before the Passover....", "On the next sabbath...." Those are the most frequent types of "text breaks" that let you know time has passed between what you just read and what you are about to read.

Luke 14:
Now chapter 14 leads in with an: "It came to pass..." and we don't see another "And it came to pass..." until we get to verse 11 of chapter 17. Now what precedes between 14 and 17 is pretty much just a string of parables.

So were all these parables spoken in the same day? That's absolutely plausible and we can see this based on the unfolding of the accounts in the text.

We start in chapter 14; it's the sabbath and Jesus is invited to a pharisee's house. And it's not just any old pharisee. The text describes it as "a chief Pharisee".

So Jesus is walking and there are crowds following Him. We know He's going to this pharisee's house. It appears that Jesus gets to the house; then someone with dropsy is introduced into the story line. Jesus asks the pharisees: "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" They don't answer. Jesus heals this man and "lets him go".

Now knowing this whole pharisee issue; do you think it's plausible that they invited a man with dropsy to their dinner? (Not likely.)

They all got nothing to say and Jesus begins to speak a parable to them as He's observing how they are beginning to arrange themselves regarding the rooms in the house. Were there multiple entrances? Important people go here, less important people go there. That's possible because the beginning of verse seven tells us Jesus "speaks a parable to those who were bidden". Now would it make contextual sense to state "to those who were bidden" if only "those who were bidden" were present?

Here is an example of the importance of paying attention to little details like this.

Jesus precedes with this parable about a wedding feast. The next verse (12) "Then said He also to him who bade Him......" Now look at the next parable! What is it about? (Again, these little details are important.) Jesus starts talking about inviting people who can't pay you back.

Now ask yourself; what would be the point of Jesus presenting this parable to a group of pharisees that he's "alone" in this house with? Remember these guys were out to get Him. Would you go into a house with a group of guys who you knew wanted to kill you? (Not likely.)

Verse 15:
In a prior verse; I talked about verse 15. (Greek order) - Having heard then one of those reclining with (them), he said to him: Blessed is he who will eat bread in the kingdom of God.

"reclining with them" is a verb, present participle middle or passive voice. Genitive masculine Plural (here is another detail to pay attention to). "Them" is supplied by context because the verb is plural; even though the actual word "them" is not in the text. All English translations that i've looked at translate this "him"; yet because the verb is plural, it would be more accurately translated "them".

"Having heard then one..." - We have two things here: "having heard" and our previously discussed connective conjunction "then". "Having heard" is translated as such because the verb "heard" has an adjective attached to it which denotes the one who is performing the action of the verb. This is why it's translated "having heard". It's also aorist participle active - which means the "hearing" is not rooted in a specific time. Compare this to aorist subjective active which indicates the main verb is occurring at the time the speaker is speaking.

So therefore we can conclude that "Having heard then....." is not in the immediate time vicinity of the parable stated by Jesus. The person making the statement "Blessed is he who will eat bread in the kingdom of God" is not making it in direct time response of the parable Jesus just set forth. It's likely this parable was reported through a 3rd party to the person who makes this statement.

This would give explanation to the odd verb tenses used in "Having heard then one...."

The word "heard" here is interesting too; because it is where we get our word "acoustic" from. It is an add on to the base of "hear" which means "to lend ear" to or "pay attention" to. The base word is usually in connotation to spiritual hearing and not just the literal act of hearing with the ears. The base word means to absorb and internalize what is said. This word here though "Having heard then..." is more a kin to "having heard about", "messaged back", "reported to".

From here, let's take a look at Jesus's response:
"But He said to him...." The word "said" here is Strong's #2036. It's meaning is given as "answer", "bid", "bring word" or "command". It's a primary verb, used only in definitive past tense. It means to speak or say by word or writing.

Strong's Greek: 2036ἔπω () -- answer, bid, bring word, command

Now you had relayed to me in an earlier post that the pharisees would investigate people who claimed to be the messiah. Taking for granted that is true (I don't see why it would not be.) And you apparently holding an interest in investigating Jewish culture; might be able to shed some light on the rest of what I'm about to say, in regards to "pharisee investigations of messianic claims".

We know from Scripture that when Nicodemus came to Jesus; Nicodemus makes a very interesting statement. He says: "We know you are of God, because no one could do the things that you do unless God was with him."

Note the word "we". Nicodemus, as a member of the council (speaking for the council) says "we". This tells us that they knew EXACTLY who Jesus was. They knew He was the Messiah with a capital "M".

Now take that information into this invitation to this chief pharisee's house. They know He's the Messiah; yet who comes to invite Him to the house? We know it's not the one who makes this statement "Blessed is he who will eat bread in the Kingdom of God". The person who made that statement was probably this chief pharisee.

So here's the scenario. The "pope" of Judaism invites the Messiah to his "Vatican". And he sends a local parish priest to go invite Him. And when he gets to the "Vatican", He's directed to go around the back of St. Peter's Basilica through the basement door.

LOL

Note the parable Jesus gives in direct response to His observation of people's behavior in the house. He talks about a "wedding". Now think about that a minute. Who's the "bride groom"?

Now considering that; look at the content of the 1st parable. He says: Don't take the highest seats lest one who is more honorable be invited and you have to move to the lowest seat. Take the lowest seat and wait to be moved up accordingly that you would be praised in the eyes of others. Who is the "host"? (The bride groom). Jesus is actually the one "throwing the wedding" and all these people have usurped His place of honor!

That's what that parable is about.

Now go from there to the second parable. The one about inviting the poor, blind and maimed. Invite those who can't pay you back.

And AFTER this parable; says this person to Him: "Blessed is he who will eat in the kingdom of God." Then in response comes the 3rd parable. And that parable is about those who've made excuses, so the Master tells the servants, go into the streets and highways and countryside and collect whom ever you can.

Chapter 15:
Now here's where it gets REALLY interesting.

Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receives sinners, and eats with them.

To this, Jesus issues more parables. The fist is about finding lost sheep. The second is about the woman who found a lost coin and the third is the prodigal son.

Now chapter 16, Jesus is talking to the disciples. Probably the end of the day; the sabbath is over. It was a busy day... etc.

Now all that I got from just studying the text itself. None of it was from "studying the culture". Not that I think it would not be useful to know some of the cultural stuff. I do look at the history too; although I know more about Roman culture than Jewish culture. Studying the culture though is not necessary to understanding the Bible.

And I have not seen you state that you do not believe that hate does not mean loathe or detest. If you did I missed it! There have been many lengthy answers here and other threrads, so it is possible I missed you recanting that Jesus was saying you had to loathe and detest your family (as it is biblically defined) in order to be His disciple.

This one too; you have to go back and look at the entirety of how to interpret this using Scripture. What is "hate" Biblically defined?

I'm sure you know the verse: The wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. Scripturally, we have "hate" on two different paradigms. We have the wrath of man and we have the wrath of God. One is usually driven by sin and the other is driven by righteousness.

Can humans have legitimate righteous anger? Yes they can. Now that doesn't mean that human righteous anger isn't clouded by sin also. Yet like that word "hate" entails a choice made based on a moral standing. Forsaking one's family in a moral standing, does not automatically equate to sinful vengeance.

Psalm 139:22 - "I hate them with a perfect hatred and I count them my enemies." That's a Messianic psalm. How did Jesus hate His enemies with a perfect hatred? Are you able to grasp the concept of that? Jesus hating someone with a perfect hatred. If you look in the gospels you will see some of this. There was more than one pharisee who was on the receiving end of some not so pretty inditements!

So what does it mean to "hate" (loath or detest) on moral grounds? Be ye holy as I am holy. Does Holy God never get angry? Does Holy God never acknowledge when something is really ... FUBR? I know you understand there are people God hates. There are people who will come under His wrath. So when Jesus says to hate your parents, kids, spouse EVEN YOUR OWN LIFE! What do you suppose that would look like in the context of making a decision based on a moral standing?
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,605
3,095
✟216,676.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God wiped them out because He had to in order to accomplish His plan.

I'd suggest it's more like this. Water boils at 212F. When a certain state is duplicated the results become the same. God knows at what point things are. I believe it comes when God would no longer be good to allow things to continue one more moment that's when judgement comes.

God is long suffering but it has length and can be measured. Long suffering is good. But it also becomes good for it to eventually end. It's just to allow culture time to repent but becomes unjust to allow evil to continue on forever. One thing critics in the world actually ask is if God is loving and just why doesn't he stop evil from existing?

They feel a loving God wouldn't allow it. Well the fact is he has it a part of the plan to put an end of evil but there's a timetable for doing so. Both are good. Long suffering is good but there comes a line where judgement becomes the good thing.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I agree but Noah found favor by God because of his righteousness.

“These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.”

Hebrews 11:7:
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

And here is the sticking point of this whole thread. Where does the faith come from?

God being both omniscient and omnipresent could foresee their future.

Now are you speaking here of those who endure God's wrath, or those who are predestine unto redemption.

Predestination is not product of "God foresaw down the corridors of time that they would choose Him". Those elect unto redemption were elect from the foundation of the world. Not because God "saw faith in them"; because none of us have faith. That is not something we can muster out of ourselves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Man is only free because God is sovereign.

Except the unredeemed are not free. Humanity in his fallen state is a slave to his sin! And those who become free are only free because of the sovereign power of the operation of God's will!
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Predestination is not product of "God foresaw down the corridors of time that they would choose Him". Those elect unto redemption were elect from the foundation of the world. Not because God "saw faith in them"; because none of us have faith. That is not something we can muster out of ourselves.
You claim to know how God interacts with time? Where does the Bible explain how God chooses a certain plan?
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Except the unredeemed are not free. Humanity in his fallen state is a slave to his sin! And those who become free are only free because of the sovereign power of the operation of God's will!
I agree to a point. Man can only become saved by listening to God's call. But everyone has a conscience also. If God is just irresistibly quickening some, we could not be held accountable for our response or lack of it.
Do you believe that God is madly in love with you? Do you think you are unique in that regard? Do you believe God truly wills for all to be saved? If not, you don't begin to understand him.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You claim to know how God interacts with time? Where does the Bible explain how God chooses a certain plan?

You want to know who the elect are and that is not information God gives us.

He tells us the elect were chosen not based on any merit found in them.
He tells us the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.

Question for you? Why are you so hostile to this? Why do you care if anyone else believes in "calvinism"? If you're so convinced your arminian gospel is the truth; why should you care what anyone else believes? Do you have these kinds of arguments with Muslims and Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons?

If someone believes God's sovereignty saves them; what's that to you?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
If God is just irresistibly quickening some, we could not be held accountable for our response or lack of it.

If God doesn't irresistibly quicken some; no one is redeemed.

Do you believe that God is madly in love with you?

:doh:Why would He be? LOL - I got nothing holy God would ever want or need.

Do you think you are unique in that regard?

Nope!

Do you believe God truly wills for all to be saved?

Nope - if He was, they would be.
 
Upvote 0