Salvation Cannot be Lost

renniks · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, now you're getting this from a absolute NON-Calvinist.

Uh, no, I did not do that. But I dare you to prove your claim.

I don't play games. I ask straightforward questions. And I find not many Arminnians willing to answer my questions.

But I do find it amusing that you seem not to want to explain what "has not believed" means to you. Is the question to difficult to answer? Or do you actually realize that the answer is exactly what I said it means: "has NEVER believed".

So, the phrase "has not believed" cannot be answered in your world. OK, got it.

It means someone who hasn't believed yet obviously. It says nothing about those who have believed, but currently don't, because that isn't what is being discussed! Those answers are found in numerous passages that do discuss falling away and/ or falling into false belief.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

Phil W said:
You must believe Paul knew of Romans 6 before he wrote Romans 7, so, if he knew his old man was dead and buried, (Rom 6:3-6), it is impossible for him to be talking about his life in the flesh in the present tense while writing Rom 7.

Me thinks you just don't really want to learn. I'm tired of your twisting things all out of shape. Romans 7 has NO evidence of being a "present historical". And you STILL haven't shown which words fulfill that criteria.

I said:
"When he reminisced, he was clear that he was. But there is no evidence of reminiscing in ch 7. And you can't prove your claim."

I have proved it but you are an unbeliever.

What in the world are you talking about? Sounds as though you are claiming I'm not saved. That violates forum rules. Knock it off please.

And you STILL haven't proven your claim. All you've done is make that claim. Not the same.

"When we were in the flesh..." sounds like a remembrance of a past time.

It sure it. But finish the context.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Do you understand the red words? They aren't a present historical. He is noting a CHANGE from the past to present. And he continues in the present tense in the rest of ch 7.

"When we were in the flesh..."
It isn't his present.

But the beginning of v.6 IS his present.

Then you are also an unbeliever of 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
All things includes natures.

Do you deny that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, or did He lose one of His natures? Your argument is ridiculous.

Because 2 Cor 5:17 refutes the notion of dual personalities.

I'm NOT talking about 2 personalities. A nature isn't a personality. And Jesus, though having 2 natures, didn't have a dual personality.

It is written..."A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8)
That doesn't seem to describe Jesus...who was one with God.

Just answer the question, please. Was Jesus both fully man and fully God, or not?

Acts 10:45 wasn't enough for you?

What does that mean?

Show one other place where anyone in the NT received the gift of the Holy Ghost before baptism.

Why? Wasn't Acts 10:45 enough for you?

Well, I realized that I forgot to include verses from the next chapter. Recall that ch 11 is Peter's defense for going to a Gentile house.

16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

These verses clearly link to ch 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
So your argument is flawed seriously. You have no case.

Believers get baptized...INTO CHRIST.

By the sealing with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

Even then, if there was no turn from sin, there is no gift of the Holy Ghost from God

You give your opinion a lot, but with zero support from Scripture.

I said:
"Says you. Paul says Gal 3:2,5. I believe Paul.
Where does the Bible support your opinions?
Again, Paul says we receive the Spirit by faith. Gal 3:2,5
That's your freedom. To make mistake
Where does the Bible say that. What Luke said about Simon he said about the rest of the people who believed.
Acts 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
You have opinions. I have Scripture.
Water baptism is a symbol only. 1 Pet 3:21
We are "immersed" into Christ when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer. At the moment of faith in Christ."

Please learn how to edit your posts. The above that I posted previous to your post shows up in your post as though you posted it.

If you can't figure out how to post and edit, what's the point of posting?

And you didn't respond to what I posted.

My words:
"John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Red words are present tense. We have eternal life NOW, when we believe.
Blue words are future tense. No condemnation.
Green words are past tense. That's justification. Once justified, always justified.
My method"??? No, I followed the Bible. I placed my faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for my sins to be saved."

That is the proof you are not "in Christ".

Again, you are insinuating that I am unsaved. That is full of nonsense.

I HAVE believed in Christ for salvation.

That PROVES that I HAVE eternal life.
That PROVES that I WILL NOT be judged.
That PROVES that I HAVE CROSSED OVER from death to life.

So don't push that crap about I'm "not in Christ".

Further, Eph 1:13,14 says-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

These 2 verses PROVE that:
I WAS INCLUDED IN CHRIST when I heard the message of truth.
I was marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit WHEN I BELIEVED.
I was GUARANTEED my inheritance until the redemption of myself, who is God's possession.

Paul had crucified his old man of sin at his water baptism...which he had just laid out in Romans 6.

Were you present at Paul's baptism? Or, where did Paul describe his baptism?

Your opinions need to have support from Scripture, if you want to be taken seriously.

If I could convince you with scripture to live without sin, would you?

You mean you think you actually have verses that support your opinions?

Sure. If you have a clear verse, I'll be convinced.

But given the verses I've already shared, all you will have done is prove that the Bible is contradicted.

So, if that is your goal, knock yourself out.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

Phil W said:
As you have made it clear you are still in your old body, with its sinful nature, I don"t expect you to believe anything I post from God.

Well, so far, you haven't posted ANYTHING "from God", since all you've posted is just your own opinion, and all without any Scripture that says that you opine.

And I sure don't believe anything you post. Esp because you provide NO evidence for your opinions from Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

Phil W said: ↑
As you have made it clear you are still in your old body, with its sinful nature, I don"t expect you to believe anything I post from God.

Paul McGraw said:
Phil W - your post gives me the impression that you are being boastful. I know it is irritating when we get into disagreements, but each of us does the best we can do.

Do I understand correctly that you are boasting that you are without sin?

That is my understanding from what he posts.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

I said:
"So, the phrase "has not believed" cannot be answered in your world. OK, got it."

renniks said:
It means someone who hasn't believed yet obviously.

Well, I'm glad that at least one has acknowledged the obvious. Thank you. But you may be alone among those who are in disagreement with me.

It says nothing about those who have believed, but currently don't, because that isn't what is being discussed! Those answers are found in numerous passages that do discuss falling away and/ or falling into false belief.

The point of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 is that condemnation is for those who have not believed. They never believed.

And, there are NO verses about "former believers", "ex believers" who will be condemned.

Paul McGraw · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously? So, "has NOT believed" can mean someone who HAS believed at some point?

Me thinks you aren't all that familiar with how the English language works. Or what its words mean.

OK, now just stop. We're not talking about advantage, etc. We're only talking about what the phrase "has NOT believed" means. And it seems you don't like what it really means either. But it means just what it says.

"has not" means "has never".

"not" never means "sometimes", or "used to". As you seem to want it to mean.

Once again, I ask for the best and clearest verse that supports your theory here.

That is absurd. If someone EVER DID believe, then it is complete nonsense to say "they have NOT believed". The Bible never put a timeframe on either verse.

When the Bible speaks of someone who "has not believed", it means they have never believed.

I can hardly believe I'm having to explain the clear meaning of English words to those who would claim that English is their native language.

Yes, I am a native English speaker. Born in the U.S.A. in 1953. I hold three college degrees, from back in the good old days when a college degree actually meant something.

"Not" is not a synonym for never. Look it up. I am not in the shower. That does not mean I have never been in the shower, it simply means I am not in the shower now. This is so basic that I am surprised by your position. If God wanted the verse to mean what you say, it would read hath never believed.

Perhaps you can find a thesaurus that shows never to be a synonym for not. If so I will certainly yield this point to you, with extreme surprise. Blessing to you, my friend. If God wanted us to have a complete and perfect understanding, He would have given it to us in a way that can not be misread.

renniks · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"So, the phrase "has not believed" cannot be answered in your world. OK, got it."

Well, I'm glad that at least one has acknowledged the obvious. Thank you. But you may be alone among those who are in disagreement with me.

The point of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 is that condemnation is for those who have not believed. They never believed.

And, there are NO verses about "former believers", "ex believers" who will be condemned.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

If you devote yourselves to teachings of demons, you won't be condemned?

Hebrews 3:12 ESV
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Here we find out that brothers, obviously real believers, who can become unbelievers. As you have already pointed out, unbelievers are condemned.

Now, I'm sure you can writhe around on the floor and find some way to claim these verses don't mean what they seem to mean, but I'll just take them as they are.

Gr8Grace · Sep 8, 2019

Paul McGraw said:
Yes, I am a native English speaker. Born in the U.S.A. in 1953. I hold three college degrees, from back in the good old days when a college degree actually meant something.

"Not" is not a synonym for never. Look it up. I am not in the shower. That does not mean I have never been in the shower, it simply means I am not in the shower now. This is so basic that I am surprised by your position. If God wanted the verse to mean what you say, it would read hath never believed.

Perhaps you can find a thesaurus that shows never to be a synonym for not. If so I will certainly yield this point to you, with extreme surprise. Blessing to you, my friend. If God wanted us to have a complete and perfect understanding, He would have given it to us in a way that can not be misread.

It's so basic, that I am surprised someone with 3 LEGIT degrees can't get it.

Rather than a thesaurus, go to the GREEK meaning.

3361 mḗ (a particle which functions as an adverb) – no, not. 3361 (mḗ) negates "subjectively," ruling out any implications ("suggestions") that could be involved with what should (could, would) apply.

3361 /mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities, i.e. all that it suggests on a conceptual or hypothetical plane.

[3361 /mḗ ("not, no") then negates the implications (suggestions) that naturally spring from the negated statement.]

Ironic that when we do quote a verse that says 'NEVER' you and the loss of salvation crowd will defy logic and His Word to say that 'never' really doesn't mean NEVER.John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

It's amazing to me that grown, educated adults can't see this. But I have studied His word enough to know why they can't.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

I said:
"You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously? So, "has NOT believed" can mean someone who HAS believed at some point?

Me thinks you aren't all that familiar with how the English language works. Or what its words mean."

Paul McGraw said:
Yes, I am a native English speaker. Born in the U.S.A. in 1953. I hold three college degrees, from back in the good old days when a college degree actually meant something.

Then how come you think that "has NOT believed" can mean "has AT ONE TIME believed"? It's a total contradiction.

"has not believed" CANNOT EVER mean "once did believe", or "did believe in the past".

"Not" is not a synonym for never. Look it up. I am not in the shower. That does not mean I have never been in the shower, it simply means I am not in the shower now. This is so basic that I am surprised by your position. If God wanted the verse to mean what you say, it would read hath never believed.

"has not..." CANNOT mean "used to", or "once did", or anything like that.

Your example fails precisely because the context is a shower. Everyone understands "I am not..." as a present tense situation. Even the phrase "I have not showered" by the very definition doesn't mean hasn't ever. Because it would be highly stupid of a person to have NEVER showered. Even Palestinians took baths.

John 10:10 - 10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

But "believing" isn't like taking showers. Our bodies NEED ongoing showers. Duh.

The Bible NEVER teaches that we need on-going saving faith, although I expect you'll claim the opposite, all the while WITHOUT any Scriptural evidence.

Perhaps you can find a thesaurus that shows never to be a synonym for not. If so I will certainly yield this point to you, with extreme surprise.

Believing in Christ for salvation is NOT an on-going process. That's why the aorist tense is used many times for believing for salvation. It's a point in time event.

And from that point in time event, we experience:
1. we have salvation
2. we are forgiveness
3. we are born again, regeneration, new birth, new creature
4. we have eternal life
5. we are sons of God

None of this requires continual believing. It's a done deal at the MOMENT we believe.

Blessing to you, my friend. If God wanted us to have a complete and perfect understanding, He would have given it to us in a way that can not be misread.

Well, I'm not misreading it.

The 2 verses clearly state that condemnation is for those who have not believed.

Have you ever believed? Then you will not be condemned.

That's why Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Do you notice that He, unlike Arminians, didn't include conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

But, this is how Arminians read John 10:28.

I give them eternal life, AND IF THEY DO THIS AND DON'T DO THAT, they shall never perish.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 8, 2019

renniks said:
1 Timothy 4:1 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

If you devote yourselves to teachings of demons, you won't be condemned?

Condemned in the sense of divine discipline. But once given eternal life, Jesus said recipients shall never perish. I do believe what Jesus said. And I'm reading Him correctly.

Hebrews 3:12 ESV
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Here we find out that brothers, obviously real believers, who can become unbelievers. As you have already pointed out, unbelievers are condemned.

The problem is that the Bible NEVER describes a fallen away believer as an unbeliever. That's a false construction.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the permanent things that God does when one believes:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The red words are present tense. The believer has eternal life NOW. When they believe.
The blue words are future tense.
The green words are past tense. Already a done deal.

btw, can eternal life die? That would be contradictory. Eternal life is eternal. It cannot die. Once we're given eternal life, our souls cannot die in the second death (lake of fire).

Now, I'm sure you can writhe around on the floor and find some way to claim these verses don't mean what they seem to mean, but I'll just take them as they are.

I know what they "seem" to mean to you, but you are reading them through the rose tinted glasses of Armininanism.

renniks · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
know what they "seem" to mean to you, but you are reading them through the rose tinted glasses of Armininanism.

Rose tinted? What is rosy about believing I can fall away from God? It would be more convenient to believe one could not, but a dishonest reading of scripture.

renniks · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently you aren't familiar with the permanent things that God does when one believes:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Exactly. The believer has crossed over. He currently has eternal life, and will not be judged if he dies in his current condition. So does God take non-believers to heaven? Because that's what you are saying. In the same chapter Jesus said: "those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned." Seems pretty conditional to me.

Paul McGraw · Sep 8, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
It's so basic, that I am surprised someone with 3 LEGIT degrees can't get it.

Rather than a thesaurus, go to the GREEK meaning.

3361 mḗ (a particle which functions as an adverb) – no, not. 3361 (mḗ) negates "subjectively," ruling out any implications ("suggestions") that could be involved with what should (could, would) apply.

3361 /mḗ ("not") negates the underlying idea (concept) of a statement, ruling out its possibilities, i.e. all that it suggests on a conceptual or hypothetical plane.

[3361 /mḗ ("not, no") then negates the implications (suggestions) that naturally spring from the negated statement.]

Ironic that when we do quote a verse that says 'NEVER' you and the loss of salvation crowd will defy logic and His Word to say that 'never' really doesn't mean NEVER.John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

It's amazing to me that grown, educated adults can't see this. But I have studied His word enough to know why they can't.

I am not a Greek scholoar, and too old to learn that now. But I trust the dedicated people who have created our Bible translations. If God meant never, He would have said never. What else is there to say?

Paul McGraw · Sep 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"You gotta be kidding me!! Seriously? So, "has NOT believed" can mean someone who HAS believed at some point?

Me thinks you aren't all that familiar with how the English language works. Or what its words mean."

Then how come you think that "has NOT believed" can mean "has AT ONE TIME believed"? It's a total contradiction.

"has not believed" CANNOT EVER mean "once did believe", or "did believe in the past".

"has not..." CANNOT mean "used to", or "once did", or anything like that.

Your example fails precisely because the context is a shower. Everyone understands "I am not..." as a present tense situation. Even the phrase "I have not showered" by the very definition doesn't mean hasn't ever. Because it would be highly stupid of a person to have NEVER showered. Even Palestinians took baths.

John 10:10 - 10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

But "believing" isn't like taking showers. Our bodies NEED ongoing showers. Duh.

The Bible NEVER teaches that we need on-going saving faith, although I expect you'll claim the opposite, all the while WITHOUT any Scriptural evidence.

Believing in Christ for salvation is NOT an on-going process. That's why the aorist tense is used many times for believing for salvation. It's a point in time event.

And from that point in time event, we experience:
1. we have salvation
2. we are forgiveness
3. we are born again, regeneration, new birth, new creature
4. we have eternal life
5. we are sons of God

None of this requires continual believing. It's a done deal at the MOMENT we believe.

Well, I'm not misreading it.

The 2 verses clearly state that condemnation is for those who have not believed.

Have you ever believed? Then you will not be condemned.

That's why Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Do you notice that He, unlike Arminians, didn't include conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

But, this is how Arminians read John 10:28.

I give them eternal life, AND IF THEY DO THIS AND DON'T DO THAT, they shall never perish.

I am just using words in the normal way that you and I would use them to have a conversation. You mentioned I was changing the meaning of never. I, of course, deny that. For the person who finishes the race in Christ, he will never die. And that person can never be ripped from His hand. Where we differ regards a person who no longer is even trying or wanting to be in Christ, by renouncing their faith.

I also have doubts about the organized crime people who murder the innocent, then make confession and believe they can enter heaven.

FreeGrace2 - please do not get angry. But I am very certain that you are avoiding the truth here. But God bless you. You are contending for the faith as you see it. And we mere mortals will not have a perfect understanding outside of Heaven.

Gr8Grace · Sep 8, 2019

Paul McGraw said:
I am not a Greek scholoar, and too old to learn that now. But I trust the dedicated people who have created our Bible translations. If God meant never, He would have said never. What else is there to say?

Simple. Very simple.

The Lord Jesus Christ has not sinned. Anyone who has not believed is condemned.

I don't need to explain. You know.

Gr8Grace · Sep 8, 2019

Paul McGraw said:
Where we differ regards a person who no longer is even trying or wanting to be in Christ, by renouncing their faith.

Look, salvation cannot be lost, John 10:28 and MANY more. So I view you as saved.

But your renouncing the faith that The bible verifies:
We are sealed for the day of redemption.
His gift is irrevocable.
He will never leave us.
He will never forsake us.
He will lose NONE.
He is faithful.
He will not judge us.
He will not condemn us.
He is the power in our salvation.
He will NEVER separate us from His love.
And so many more. .......The milk, the elementary truths.

This is THE faith, and many believers have renounced what He has done for them. They don't abide in Him. they abide in their religious works, deeds and 'good'.
Heb 5:12~~New International Version
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Gr8Grace · Sep 8, 2019

Paul McGraw said:
I am not a Greek scholoar, and too old to learn that now.

Never, never to old to learn it. It's amazing to run into a teacher of the word that is so good at it..............you can prove him wrong when he's wrong......... And he taught you how to do it.

Today is full of 'teachers' that teach you what THEY think and not what His Word teaches.

Paul McGraw · Sep 8, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Simple. Very simple.

The Lord Jesus Christ has not sinned. Anyone who has not believed is condemned.

I don't need to explain. You know.

We can fully agree, hurrah!

And can we agree that Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God, without any blemish or stain? He was tempted yet He did not sin. He was the only man who has ever lived or ever will live that committed no sin. And yet He died for me, a sinner, and by His blood, I am saved. Not by works but by grace.

(Now you will probably disagree) Because I believe in Jesus, I will try to be in agreement with God and obedient to Him in all things. I have worked to pick up my cross daily so as to rid my life of sin. Not as a source of salvation, I can never be good enough to meet Gods Holy standard, which is perfection, but out of love for my Savior I try to be obedient to Him. I repent of my sins, past, present, and future. I proclaim my faith in Jesus to anyone who will listen, and I will not deny Him, lest He deny me to our Father in Heaven. I now come close to the finish of my race, I have cancer, and I pray that God will hold me up, and not let me fall, so that I can finish my race while in Christ. If Jesus will just let me squeeze into Heaven through the back door, I will be content. I don't need a mansion.

Phil W · Sep 8, 2019

renniks said:
Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

BTW, it's arminian, not Armenian.
The other extreme from extreme irresistible grace is of course, the belief in sinless perfection. I find that as problematic as Calvinism, just in different ways.

Can't God use His extreme irresistible grace to make a man sinlessly perfect?
Yes, He can.

Phil W · Sep 8, 2019

Paul McGraw said:
We can fully agree, hurrah!

(Now you will probably disagree) Because I believe in Jesus, I will try to be in agreement with God and obedient to Him in all things. I have worked to pick up my cross daily so as to rid my life of sin. Not as a source of salvation,

I can never be good enough to meet Gods Holy standard, which is perfection, but out of love for my Savior I try to be obedient to Him. I repent of my sins, past, present, and future. I proclaim my faith in Jesus to anyone who will listen, and I will not deny Him, lest He deny me to our Father in Heaven.

Peter thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
Paul thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
John thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Jesus commanded it..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

Instead of picking up that cross daily, allow yourself to be killed on it, and then bury the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

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