Did we miss our turn somewhere?

mkgal1 said:

No. It's just that's our mutual point of agreement.

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You don't think the world is rejecting Christ and will suffer tribulation for it like the Jews did for theirs?

Ricky M said:

You don't think the world is rejecting Christ and will suffer tribulation for it like the Jews did for theirs?

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This thread isn't about the future - that's off topic - it's about the past and, as Dave eloquently put it, looking at the map again to see if a turn was missed somewhere that caused us to be off course.

mkgal1 said:

This thread isn't about the future - that's off topic - it's about the past and, as Dave eloquently put it, looking at the map again to see if a turn was passed somewhere that caused us to be off course.

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Not off topic at all. Re read the op.

Dave L said:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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Yes shortly (tachos) does mean speedily. However we must look at the full revelation of the revelation. It all has to come to pass. As with the preterists- they must answer the questions of:

The mark,
when did it come to pass,
the angel travelling the globe
the two witnesses,
the seals, bowls and trumpets
the antichrist who conquers 3 rulers of teh world and 7 others give their allegiance to HIm
antichrist entering the temple and declaring himself god
etc.etc.etc..

Dave L said:

If you look for the symbols to appear, you'll miss it altogether. If you look for what they represent, history shows some striking fulfillments. And through them, we can have a rough view of the future.

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No I fully understand that symbols are symbols and that they stand for something literal. Some fulfilment is not biblical.

Gods standard for prophesy is it has to be right 100% , 100% of the time! 99 44/100% correct makes it a false prophesy and false prophet!

Teh bible clearly defines all the symbolic things in teh Revelation, and there are some similarities in history, but no fulfillment yet.

Dave L said:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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Most people don't understand "Things which must shortly be done" is because they interpret these things as being eternal, rather than internal. When you interpret scripture literally, you are never going to come out of it smelling like roses. God is spirit, and his word is spirit.

Honestly a thousand years is as a day to God.
And did not Jesus say you would long to see the Day of the Son of Man and you wont see it?

Luke 17, Did this really already happen? no.
Jesus compares this return as to the time of Noah, when the flood came and destroyed all people, (except them in the ark).
So no its not happened yet, the wicked are still here.

This time is His returning, which Paul also describes in 2 Thessalonians 1.

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Eagles EAT their prey, these bodies are the wicked dead, the great supper of God. The wicked are taken away, swept off their feet, in an instantaneous destruction, (sudden destruction comes upon them). 'if it was warfare of armies, that is not a sudden destruction.

The flood of Noah destroyed all the world, this is not a local destruction, it is world wide.

MasterYourLife said:

I'll refer you to one of my old posts:
Explain this (link)

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The transfiguration -- What Was the Transfiguration of Jesus?

Dave L said:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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I have trouble with Revelation because you wouldn't be asking this question if most of us know, including yourself. What strikes me is the 2060 year forecast by Sir Isaac Newton, but he thought we lived in a fixed universe. Yet, while he was wrong about gravitation, we can still use his laws of gravitation calculations for most of the universe. The last thing I looked for was if Iran was going to get weapons of mass destruction using Bruce Bueno de Mesquita articles. I think we're suppose to have WW III first, so I don't think we missed the turn. However, if I follow your argument correctly, then I'm not sure what kind of things we were suppose to be on the lookout for back then. I agreed with the 70 AD. We also had Noah's Flood. We may have some famines coming our way. I mean if some of us don't make until 2060, then we just have to wait as even if we missed our turn then it will still happen.

ETA: One more thing. I've been reading about artist Edward Hopper and he belonged to my parents generation and earlier. They experienced two world wars. I'm sure they must've thought it was the end somewhere. There is a lot of isolation in the eyes of people he painted.

Dave L said:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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Thanks @Dave L, I agree with you on this one.
I was always taught the futurist view, despite the above verses completely contradicting it.

My wife and I have just been reading and praying together through the book of Revelation, twice in a row, because of this very conundrum.
We are now studying the Historicist view together, although I don't necessarily agree with what I am reading yet.

And you missed this key verse out.-
Rev22v10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

But probably the most convincing thing is when you compare the Revelation verses with what The Lord said to Daniel.
Dan12v4“But as for you, Daniel, seal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
and
Dan12v9He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

So effectively, the Lord tells Daniel to seal the book up as it relates to the distant future, which only took 500 years before things kicked off.

In contrast the events of Revelation are shortly to come to pass, but they pushed over 2000 years ahead!
That makes no sense at all.

Dave L said:

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

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Good question, the answer Sola Scriptura everyone can decide for themselves what it says and if no agrees oh well that person has the Holy Spirit so what they say is right no matter what.

Dave L said:

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago? Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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We look for them to be fulfilled because they obviously have not all been fulfilled - even if you think that some of them were fulfilled early on in church history.

We are like people who have obviously not reached their final destination because they haven't yet seen Jesus riding down the highway toward us on a white horse or ruling the earth with a rod of iron.

Those of us who value the study of Revelation do quite often look at the map again and again to see the things we may have passed by.

I, for instance, have changed views on certain things in eschatology several times in the last 6 decades or so of study on the subject. I may revamp a few more ideas before I cross over.

But one thing I know for sure - the end of the vision is still future and anyone who says different simply must be looking for a different Jesus than the one I see revealed in the Book of Revelation.

Maria Billingsley said:

Who pierced Jesus? These people will "see Him" so are they alive or are they dead?

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Berean Tim said:

Revelation 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

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Again,it says....EVERY eye will see him.Makes no matter whether they are alive or dead.He is God....

Dave L said:

If you look for the symbols to appear, you'll miss it altogether. If you look for what they represent, history shows some striking fulfillments. And through them, we can have a rough view of the future.

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Post 24 isn't symbolic. But if it is, that's what your position is. You think its all symbolic. So tell us how it was all fulfilled?

Rebecca4Christ said:

Again,it says....EVERY eye will see him.Makes no matter whether they are alive or dead.He is God....

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If they are dead then it is on the last day. The same day all are resurrected, the good and the evil.
If it is when they are alive then it is in 70AD. It really does matter.
Blessings

Dave L said:

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900)

“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” Revelation 22:6 (KJV 1900)

Why is it most still look for the visions of Revelation to be fulfilled in the distant future? When Jesus said they would soon come to pass - nearly 2000 years ago?

Could it be we are like a person who misses his turn and still looks for it 2000 miles down the road? Someone too stubborn to take another look at the map?

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Its a good point Dave. "Shortly ..." What does it mean? It doesnt help the futurist very much, especially those who fuss about taking words literally. However, I prefer the Historicist model than Preterist or Futurist. It seems more reasonable to me to interpret prophecy as unfolding gradually than applied rigidly to a past era, or to a future 7 year period.

(Having said that, I admit Historicism has had its share of oddballs)

Maria Billingsley said:

If it is when they are alive then it is in 70AD. It really does matter.

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Can you explain the 70 AD part? I know what happened, but how does it relate to seeing?

Also, do we really want to see that badly and that waiting isn't a bad state? It may be a good state when one understands what happens near the end. Be careful of what you wish for.

jamesbond007 said:

Can you explain the 70 AD part? I know what happened, but how does it relate to seeing?

Also, do we really want to see that badly and that waiting isn't a bad state? It may be a good state when one understands what happens near the end. Be careful of what you wish for.

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You will need to read all my posts to get the full subject and context of what I am talking about.