Defending Protestant Theology.

sdowney717

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So why would Jesus say he wishes that no one should perish? Doesn’t that make him sound impish? “I wish none of you should parish but don’t worry I’ve already picked who will be saved”.

EDIT: I believe God has specially chosen some people but I think some people take that idea way too far.
Actually everyone perished, and they are dead. Christ is the Resurrection and the Life.
So unless He makes you alive who were dead, your still dead. Those God makes alive are the ones for whom He has a great love.

What verse in the NT are you thinking about?

If you notice in Ephesians 2, the people He made alive they are following the devil and pursuing the lusts of their flesh. Nothing about them was imminently worthy of God to grant to them eternal life, it was only His love for them that made them live.

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

BUT GOD did not make everyone alive, the difference was His great love only for some persons and not the others. Is it not God's right to chose whom He will love and show mercy and compassion?
 
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Christ is Lord

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That was his intention in creating humans, wasn't it? Only they had a different idea, not unlike the angels who rebelled in heaven. God obviously (I would say) would rather than none of these had misused the free will that he had endowed them with.


On this, I have no idea what you're getting at.

Apologies, I misattributed. I was thinking of 2 Peter 3:9-10

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed."

Why would Peter say something like that after Eden? God wants to save everyone.
 
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Christ is Lord

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On this, I have no idea what you're getting at.

What I a getting at is that I believe that their are some that God has chosen and predestined to be saved. But I don't view that as the same for everyone.
 
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Christ is Lord

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What verse in the NT are you thinking about?

2 Peter 3:9-10 and to an extent John 3:16-17.

John 3:16-17 with the inclusive language of "whoever believes" seems to contradict the idea that God has already picked and choose who would be saved.
 
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Christ is Lord

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2 Peter 3:9-10 and to an extent John 3:16-17.

John 3:16-17 with the inclusive language of "whoever believes" seems to contradict the idea that God has already picked and choose who would be saved.

I know God knows the end from the beginning and ultimately who would be saved. But just because God knows a possible outcome doesn't mean it has to happen.
 
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sdowney717

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2 Peter 3:9-10 and to an extent John 3:16-17.

John 3:16-17 with the inclusive language of "whoever believes" seems to contradict the idea that God has already picked and choose who would be saved.
Sure, read about to whom Peter is writing will clear it up.
He is writing to the Beloved, and if you notice earlier in the chapter Peter mentions the wicked.
So the to you-ward of that verse is the Beloved Elect that God has determined for them to be saved, and so they will be.

1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance; 2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles:

THE WICKED DESCRIBED who will perish.

3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God; 6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

NOW THE BELOVED ELECT who will be saved.
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, (the beloved) not wishing that any (OF YOU BELOVED of GOD) should perish, but that all (OF YOU-WARD) should come to repentance.

His PROMISE is another important study, and that goes back to god's promise to Abraham that through Isaac you seed shall be called... Isaac being the promised son.
 
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Christ is Lord

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Actually everyone perished, and they are dead. Christ is the Resurrection and the Life.
So unless He makes you alive who were dead, your still dead. Those God makes alive are the ones for whom He has a great love.

What verse in the NT are you thinking about?

If you notice in Ephesians 2, the people He made alive they are following the devil and pursuing the lusts of their flesh. Nothing about them was imminently worthy of God to grant to them eternal life, it was only His love for them that made them live.

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

BUT GOD did not make everyone alive, the difference was His great love only for some persons and not the others. Is it not God's right to chose whom He will love and show mercy and compassion?

Ask yourself how the people were ultimately made alive. Didn't they need to response to this grace? See Ephesians 2:8-9

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
 
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sdowney717

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Ask yourself how the people were ultimately made alive. Didn't they need to response to this grace? See Ephesians 2:8-9

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

The faith is God's gift to those He has determined to save. The response to the gift of faith is ours, but it is of course foreknown that we would be His people and respond obediently to the message.

For example about faith is Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

That is God gifted faith to everyone who is in Christ. it was not of themselves it was the gift of God lest anyone should have grounds for boasting...

Reread Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

By Grace Through the gifting of Faith we are kept by the power of God for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
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Christ is Lord

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The faith is God's gift to those He has determined to save. The response to the gift of faith is ours, but it is of course foreknown that we would be His people and respond obediently to the message.

I disagree. What Paul is saying is that you didn't save yourself. It's not because of any work you did that somehow merited your salvation. God has already provided the means of salvation—through the finished work of Christ on the cross. Therefore, all who have faith in his finished work are saved. All are given the means to salvation (i.e the opportunity to be saved) by no contributing factor on our own part nor did we deserve it (i.e grace). We are given the means of salvation through the grace of God through our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
 
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sdowney717

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A further example of God's choosing of us to be saved by His grace is in 2 Thessalonians 2

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
 
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sdowney717

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I disagree. What Paul is saying is that you didn't save yourself. It's not because of any work you did that somehow merited your salvation. God has already provided the means of salvation—through the finished work of Christ on the cross. Therefore, all who have faith in his finished work are saved. All are given the means to salvation (i.e the opportunity to be saved) by no contributing factor on our own part nor did we deserve it (i.e grace). We are given the means of salvation through the grace of God through our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Ok, I wont try to convince you anymore about the scriptures, but scripture can not be broken, so why do you try to do that?
 
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Christ is Lord

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Ok, I wont argue with you anymore, but scripture can not be broken, so why do you try to do that?

Ask yourself why Paul would make sure to say, " that no one may boast.". Why would someone boast?
 
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Christ is Lord

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A further example of God's choosing of us to be saved by His grace is in 2 Thessalonians 2

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

I am not disputing the fact that providentially God has a chosen elect. My issue is that God has chosen from the beginning of time those who will be saved.
 
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sdowney717

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Written to the saints, that means a church is made up of individual members.
You are the body of Christ and individually members of the body.
So dont say this is some kind of generalized corporate electing and also that does not fit the rest of the scriptures., like in John 6 and Luke 10

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

If no one knows Christ except the Son wills it to be so, then you are saved only if Christ wills that you are saved. Individual election, and also reprobation of the wicked in that one verse.
Because unless you know Christ as your savior and believe in Him as God come in the flesh, you can not be saved.
 
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ViaCrucis

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We've been discussing/debating much of the theology in Protestantism but have mostly been talking about Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

We've had some talk about Eternal Security but I've been trying to stay away from that. While I believe it to be scriptural and can defend that part of my theology id like to stay away from the topic because there's already MANY topics on Eternal security.

Oh and we've also been talking about preserverance of the saints. And how a believer cannot lose their salvation. Much debate has gone back and forth about that topic.

So, broadly speaking, Reformed theology then.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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Mainly because of these verses in scripture (John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, John 5:24, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 5:10-13, 1 Peter 1:4-5 & more.) Yes, even in Hebrews and John's letters where the so called "offending" verses were contained there were verses stating when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive it FOREVER and you HAVE eternal life FOREVER and were sanctified ONCE FOR ALL TIME even Christ himself said it (John 14:16). Peter said it, Paul said it (Ephesians 1:13-14, & Romans 8:9) John said it, The writer of Hebrews said it, the list just goes on and on.

Bless you friend but these scriptures are not solid evidence of eternal security as many believe.

John 6:37-40
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37-40‬ ‭NASB

There’s a subtle indication of this in John 6:37 that our English translations doesn’t convey effectively.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the way Jesus says this. Why didn’t He just say all that The Father gives Me will come to Me and I will certainly not cast them out? Notice He adds this part “and the one who COMES to me I will certainly not cast out”. Now look at the definition of the Greek word érchomai which is translated to the English word comes or cometh.

cometh

G2064


Lemma:

ἔρχομαι


Transliteration:

érchomai


Pronounce:

el'-tho


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one


Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

The Greek word érchomai is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense meaning only those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out. That is why He worded it this way and didn’t leave this part out of His statement. If all that The Father gives to Him He will certainly not cast out then the portion of the verse that says “and the one who comes to Me” is unnecessary and redundant. There’s a reason He worded it that way. The one who comes to Him presently and continuously is abiding in Him like He explained in John 15:1-10. Anyone who does not abide in Him (does not continue to come) is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. I will come back to John 15 after I continue explaining the verses you provided.

Next we need to understand the Greek word thélēma which is translated to the English word “will” in verses 38-40.

will

G2307


Lemma:

θέλημα


Transliteration:

thélēma


Pronounce:

thel'-ay-mah


Part of Speech:

Noun Neuter


Language:

greek


Description:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure


Grammar:

from the prolonged form of θέλω; a determination (properly, the thing), i.e. (actively) choice (specially, purpose, decree; abstractly, volition) or (passively) inclination:-- desire, pleasure, will.

Thélēma not only can mean what God has decreed or determined but also what God desires. We can see evidence of this in 1 Timothy 2:3-4. In 1 Tim 2:4 the verb form of the word is used (thélō G2309 instead of the noun form thélēma G2307. We can conclude from this verse that thélēma does not always refer to something God has declared to be but what God desires to be since we know that not all men will repent and be saved. I will address the other scriptures in separate posts so they’re not so long as to get overlooked.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Mainly because of these verses in scripture (John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, John 5:24, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 5:10-13, 1 Peter 1:4-5 & more.) Yes, even in Hebrews and John's letters where the so called "offending" verses were contained there were verses stating when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive it FOREVER and you HAVE eternal life FOREVER and were sanctified ONCE FOR ALL TIME even Christ himself said it (John 14:16). Peter said it, Paul said it (Ephesians 1:13-14, & Romans 8:9) John said it, The writer of Hebrews said it, the list just goes on and on.

John 10:28-29
“and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:28-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Let’s address this passage. First notice the first word in verse 28 is “and” which indicates this is not the beginning of the statement. Jesus’ statement actually begins in verse 27.

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So “them” in verse 28 is referring to “His sheep” who hear and follow and receive eternal life. Again both hear and follow are stated in the present tense. Jesus says no one can snatch them out of The Father’s hand but He does not say we cannot turn away from The Father’s hand or be cast out of The Father’s hand. John 15:6 certainly says that those who do not abide in Christ (who do not continue to hear and follow) are cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Colossians 1:21-23 certainly indicates that our salvation is contingent upon continuing in our faith.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What Jesus is saying in verse 29 is that no one else can take away or cause us to lose our salvation. He has not said that we cannot lose our salvation.

John 5:24 as in every case in the scriptures salvation is contingent upon presently believing. Romans 11 17-23 Paul explains that people who have been grafted into the olive tree by God can be cut off for unbelief and grafted back in if they repent. So some will say that if someone turns to unbelief they never truly believed to begin with. That would mean that God is grafting people into the olive tree who do not believe but yet is cutting them off for unbelief? That doesn’t make any sense. Why would He graft people in who didn’t truly believe and later cut them off for not believing if they never believed to begin with?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Mainly because of these verses in scripture (John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, John 5:24, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 5:10-13, 1 Peter 1:4-5 & more.) Yes, even in Hebrews and John's letters where the so called "offending" verses were contained there were verses stating when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive it FOREVER and you HAVE eternal life FOREVER and were sanctified ONCE FOR ALL TIME even Christ himself said it (John 14:16). Peter said it, Paul said it (Ephesians 1:13-14, & Romans 8:9) John said it, The writer of Hebrews said it, the list just goes on and on.

Your quotes from Revelation begin with “He that overcometh” so that is a condition to receiving salvation.

Hebrews 10:10 is saying Christ died once to save all men not that we are saved once and for all time. Notice the context in comparison to the Pharisees before in the Old Testament.

“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10-12‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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