How could one justify keeping the Torah while ceasing the Torah sacrifices?

rakovsky · Sep 6, 2019

In researching the major early Jewish Christian group called the "Ebionites", I found that they were Torah-observant like the Nazarenes, but that the Ebionites believed that the Torah's sacrifices were abolished. So I want to understand how one could conceive this. Messianic Jews today are Torah observant Jewish believers, which the Ebionites were, so I want to please ask if you might be able to resolve this issue.
First, let me first lay out the information about those early believers' Torah observance for you to see if I have that part right.
In Matthew 5, Yeshua announced:

17. Think not that I am come to destroy (καταλῦσαι) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That is, Yeshua was not "destroying", "demolishing", or "annulling" the Law, but "fulfilling" it.

Further, Jewish Christians in the First Century, including Paul, were still observing at least major portions of the Torah, like when in Acts 21 the Church leaders in Jerusalem instructed Paul to help four believers undertake the Nazirite oaths, which involved animal sacrifice.

Moreover, in the Second Century, Irenaeus wrote about the Jewish Christian Ebionites as emphatically practicing Torah:

Irenaeus, Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 26)
They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

Do I have this foundational information right?

rakovsky · Sep 6, 2019

Second, let me share with you their theories about the "abolition" or "ending" of the sacrifices to see if I have that information right.
In his Epistle to the Hebrews Chapter 10:8-18, Paul thinks that since Christ's sacrifice takes away people's sin, the animal "guilt offering" sacrifices that were performed to atone for sins before His sacrifice are not effective in doing so. In verses 8-9 Paul writes:

8. Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
9. then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Paul continues along these lines, concluding about the sacrifices in verse 18: "Now where there is remission of these [i.e. sins], there is no longer an offering for sin." Nonetheless, it looks to me as if Paul is only focusing on the end of sacrificial "sin offerings", and isn't declaring an end to all animal sacrifice. Do I have that right?

The Ebionites, on the other hand, appear to have gone further and advocated an end to all sacrifice. In the Fourth Century, Epiphanius wrote that the Ebionites were vegetarians and that the Ebionites said that Yeshua

came also to declare, as the gospel among them called according to the Hebrews has: "I came to abolish the sacrifices, and, if you do not cease to sacrifice, the wrath will not cease from you."[37] ...They [Ebionites] lay down certain ascents and instructions in the supposed “Ascents of James,” as though he were giving orders against the temple and sacrifices, and the fire on the altar—and much else that is full of nonsense.
...
When you say to them, of eating meat,... "Why did Isaac and Jacob sacrifice to God—Moses too, in the wilderness?” he will disbelieve those things and will say, “What need for me to read what is in the Law, when the Gospel has come?”

FOOTNOTE 37: Cf. Clem. Hom. 2.44.2; 3.26.3; 3.45.1-2; 56.4, and Rec. 1.37 1.39.12

SOURCE: Epiphanius, Panarion 30, ia803008.us.archive.org/5/items/PanarionEpiphaniusCOMPLETE_201905/Panarion%20Epiphanius%20COMPLETE.pdf

Unfortunately, it isn't very clear to me from Epiphanius' description what their justification would have been for ending the Torah's sacrifices while otherwise observing the Torah. It sounds like when it came to the topic of whether Jacob's sacrifice implied that it was OK to eat meat, the Ebionites replied that they didn't need to read the Torah because they had the Gospel. Could having the Gospel mean that you can disregard all Torah sacrifices while otherwise keeping the Torah?

Maybe the Ebionites were just claiming that Jesus said that He was specifically abolishing the sacrifices, and so they agree with that particular abolition, even though they otherwise follow the Torah. This is the best answer that comes to my mind, but I am interested in your views.

pinacled · Sep 6, 2019

In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted,
but you have given me an open ear.

Psalms 40
Ears, Eyes, hands and feet with every provision from above..

Blessings Always

rakovsky · Sep 7, 2019

TreWalker said:
We are following our Messiah, King, and Rabbi, to the letter and fullnes of the Spirit.

Especially Matthew 5:17-19 and Jeremiah 31:31-33

Could you please post these versus up and give me your explanation of how our Torah is no longer valid observable or meaningful to the new covenant?

Good discussion in this thread.
If you want my own opinion - and I am not Messianic - I think that there was a dynamic that started in the time of the apostles regarding Jewish Christians' ritual Torah observance that was never resolved fully in the Eastern Orthodox Church, which does not have an across the board ban on Jewish believers observing Torah like having circumcision. Paul seems to have ideas about the atonement sacrifices no longer having the effect of atoning for sins, if they ever did, and seems to have the idea that the Torah is good for instruction, but that it is no longer in the kind of legalistic full ritual force that it was before Yeshua's time. This ideas of Paul seem to be incipient in Yeshua's own attitudes about Torah observance. But none of this means that none of the Torah rituals should be allowed anymore. Notice how Paul is involved in sacrifice in Acts 21.

My answer to my own OP question is that although the Ebionites were generally Torah-observant, they were also vegetarians, and the Ebionites' Gospel was making Christ say that He came to abolish the sacrifices. So the way that they addressed the issue is in their own theory in accordance with what you said, "We are following our Messiah, King, and Rabbi, to the letter and fullnes of the Spirit." That is, they accepted Torah, but when it came to the sacrifices, they were making an exception (or whatever you want to call it) because the Messiah according to them had decreed that He came to end the sacrifices. Epiphanius said that if the Ebionites were asked about Jacob's sacrifice of the ram and applying it to today regarding meat-eating, they replied that they were going by the Gospel on this issue. I don't know if you want to say that in their theory the Gospel created an exception on this issue, or if the Gospel superseded the Torah here, or if Christ abolished the sacrifices by fulfilling the Law on this point, so that the Torah remained but the part about the sacrifices had been "fulfilled" with Christ, so that ongoing sacrifices did not need to continue apart from Christ's sacrifice that had already occurred.

pinacled · Sep 7, 2019

Before time, " Yeshua Is The Holy One

bèlla · Sep 7, 2019

There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to sanctification. Perhaps the Lord allows different approaches which address the areas we need to give attention to as He sloughs away the old and makes us new.

I’m not religious. There have been moments when the Holy Spirit has utilized certain methods for instruction. But once I absorbed them I was free to retain the practice or set it aside. He’s not a micro manager.

I am a simple woman with a deep abiding faith. I suffered much and endured daily warfare for seven years. I know He’s real and know He lives. Its done. All that remains is my fulfillment of the purpose He assigned.

It is the end of a thing that matters most. The vehicle we use en route is His to decide. Whether that’s Torah, denominational or non denominational paths.

What’s most important is who we’ve become in the process. Did we miss the mark? Have we gained a crown? Did we endure or quit?

Who are you in light of the Torah? What fruit have you borne? Those are the things we’re meant to address.

bèlla · Sep 7, 2019

Paul clearly states...

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

That is a spirit of blindness that man cannot lift. Only God can.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

He articulates the cause and effect. Offense: Rejection Correction: Spiritual hardening

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Not all are hardened.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

For your benefit. That is the gain from their sufferance.

They are a ‘type’ of sacrifice.

pinacled · Sep 7, 2019

LaBèlla said:
There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to sanctification. Perhaps the Lord allows different approaches which address the areas we need to give attention to as He sloughs away the old and makes us new.

I’m not religious. There have been moments when the Holy Spirit has utilized certain methods for instruction. But once I absorbed them I was free to retain the practice or set it aside. He’s not a micro manager.

I am a simple woman with a deep abiding faith. I suffered much and endured daily warfare for seven years. I know He’s real and know He lives. Its done. All that remains is my fulfillment of the purpose He assigned.

It is the end of a thing that matters most. The vehicle we use en route is His to decide. Whether that’s Torah, denominational or non denominational paths.

What’s most important is who we’ve become in the process. Did we miss the mark? Have we gained a crown? Did we endure or quit?

Who are you in light of the Torah? What fruit have you borne? Those are the things we’re meant to address.

Sons And Daughters of the kingdom never miss their mark.
They lay crowns at the feet of The Holy One.

Amen

pinacled · Sep 7, 2019

LaBèlla said:
Paul clearly states...

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

That is a spirit of blindness that man cannot lift. Only God can.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

He articulates the cause and effect. Offense: Rejection Correction: Spiritual hardening

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Not all are hardened.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

For your benefit. That is the gain from their sufferance.

They are a ‘type’ of sacrifice.

Time is fluid yet burns with a fan as Light reflects upon the waters.
If only a house were to find clarity at The roots of the Tree of Life.
Perhaps such a place in time would reveal a strength of forgiveness that has always been.
Though removed in the youth of some. In elder days the Tree of Life is given to the children without cost.
While pearls are precious gifts like a grain of sand covered in time. So to are the gates of ones mouth.
As per Torah and wisdom from above.
"Do not build steps to the altar"
And likewise, "do not put a stumbling block before the..."

Blessings Always

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 8, 2019

rakovsky said:
Good discussion in this thread.
If you want my own opinion - and I am not Messianic - I think that there was a dynamic that started in the time of the apostles regarding Jewish Christians' ritual Torah observance that was never resolved fully in the Eastern Orthodox Church, which does not have an across the board ban on Jewish believers observing Torah like having circumcision. Paul seems to have ideas about the atonement sacrifices no longer having the effect of atoning for sins, if they ever did, and seems to have the idea that the Torah is good for instruction, but that it is no longer in the kind of legalistic full ritual force that it was before Yeshua's time. This ideas of Paul seem to be incipient in Yeshua's own attitudes about Torah observance. But none of this means that none of the Torah rituals should be allowed anymore. Notice how Paul is involved in sacrifice in Acts 21.

My answer to my own OP question is that although the Ebionites were generally Torah-observant, they were also vegetarians, and the Ebionites' Gospel was making Christ say that He came to abolish the sacrifices. So the way that they addressed the issue is in their own theory in accordance with what you said, "We are following our Messiah, King, and Rabbi, to the letter and fullnes of the Spirit." That is, they accepted Torah, but when it came to the sacrifices, they were making an exception (or whatever you want to call it) because the Messiah according to them had decreed that He came to end the sacrifices. Epiphanius said that if the Ebionites were asked about Jacob's sacrifice of the ram and applying it to today regarding meat-eating, they replied that they were going by the Gospel on this issue. I don't know if you want to say that in their theory the Gospel created an exception on this issue, or if the Gospel superseded the Torah here, or if Christ abolished the sacrifices by fulfilling the Law on this point, so that the Torah remained but the part about the sacrifices had been "fulfilled" with Christ, so that ongoing sacrifices did not need to continue apart from Christ's sacrifice that had already occurred.

Torah (literally meaning instruction) has been in effect in some way or another since Creation. Many commands can not be kept because there is no Temple, but there were times when there was no Temple and Torah was still kept, such as in the exile in Babylon. You can only keep commands that apply to you at the time.

tampasteve · Sep 9, 2019

MOD HAT ON

This thread is now closed permanently per the OP. It had a major cleaning of posts that were from members that DO NOT IDENTIFY as Messianic in any way. These posts have been removed, along with replies to them from people that may identify as Messianic in some way. Please note that only members of a Faith Community may teach in the congregational and faith group forums. Non-members may not teach in them, but are encouraged to post in fellowship and with genuine questions, but they may not debate.

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How could one justify keeping the Torah while ceasing the Torah sacrifices?

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