Defending Protestant Theology.

It means that he was in Paradise, not Heaven. And note that he is reported to have witnessed to the souls of those who were there. His body, of course, was in the grave.

Neostarwcc said:

Yes. But Jesus also said "today you will be with me in paradise." Which means that his spirit was in heaven. That or hes capable of being in two places at once. After all he IS God in the flesh and can do it anything.

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What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?

“The body without the spirit is dead” James 2:26
“The spirit of God is in my nostrils” Job 27:3

The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

ONE INDIVISIBLE WHOLE. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" Gen. 2:7

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

Neostarwcc said:

I don't need to defend Eternal security because there are already a bazillion threads on the issue

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Do you see ETERNAL SECURITY as a basic protestant doctrine?

A lot of Protestants reject it. Some accept it but reject election and predestination so what their brand of eternal security rests upon is unclear. It does not look like eternal security is a basic protestant belief. It's one of the accoutrements that go along with Calvinism and occasionally get picked up by semi-calvinist theologies too.

GingerBeer said:

Do you see ETERNAL SECURITY as a basic protestant doctrine?

A lot of Protestants reject it. Some accept it but reject election and predestination so what their brand of eternal security rests upon is unclear.ly get picked up by semi-calvinist theologies too.

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That's easy. Eternal Security doesn't depend upon the other TULIP points even if they are usually presented as a package. And if the Bible suggests that the saints will persevere, then there are people who will believe it, all the other points (predestination, limited atonement, etc.) aside.

I'm posting blind after only reading the first page of responses, but my question is perhaps we could ask which Protestant theology.

-CryptoLutheran

Albion said:

I'm not taking sides on the issue by saying the following, but Heiser's comment doesn't make sense.

If I give you a gift but you turn out to be an ingrate, OF COURSE I might decide to take it back.

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Don't you believe God would know an ingrate before the gift was given?
Or are you saying that God is as petty as we humans are?

How many people have you ever heard of where they said God took back their Salvation and the can no longer believe because of it?

Albion said:

I don't know that that is correct. Jesus referred to the Scriptures on a number of occasions in order to prove some point of doctrine or moral behavior.

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Yes, to prove a point! I quote Bible verses for the same reason.

However the Bible does lack information in some very important areas of the Truth. Read John 21:25.

There's actually a huge void of information concerning "The mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven". Jesus talked about it often but almost always talks about it in riddles. Only few He explained but not enough to give the big picture. Jesus did this for a reason.

The Bible only gives tiny bits of clues but not enough to build upon. The Bible is basically just a clue book. The journey to seek God and the Truth doesn't end with the Bible.... The Bible is only the first step.

I think it is deliberately designed this way to test those who will go the lengths to seek God..

"Seek to save your life and you will lose it".... You will not have life and you will not have the Truth (Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life).

The fear of losing one's life, the fear of losing one's soul is what blinds most Christians from seeking further. They are blinded by senseless fears.

timewerx said:

Yes, to prove a point! I quote Bible verses for the same reason.

However the Bible does lack information in some very important areas of the Truth. Read John 21:25.

There's actually a huge void of information concerning "The mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven". Jesus talked about it often but almost always talks about it in riddles. Only few He explained but not enough to give the big picture. Jesus did this for a reason.

The Bible only gives tiny bits of clues but not enough to build upon. The Bible is basically just a clue book. The journey to seek God and the Truth doesn't end with the Bible.... The Bible is only the first step.

I think it is deliberately designed this way to test those who will go the lengths to seek God..

"Seek to save your life and you will lose it".... You will not have life and you will not have the Truth (Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life).

The fear of losing one's life, the fear of losing one's soul is what blinds most Christians from seeking further. They are blinded by senseless fears.

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Actually Jesus said that the reason that He gave parables was so that those who heard could have an example in mind of what He was talking about to ponder on while He gave to His disciples a further understanding. Perhaps all the books have yet to be written as further understandings of His teachings on the Kingdom are yet to be reached.

JIMINZ said:

Don't you believe God would know an ingrate before the gift was given?

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The comment you are referring to was made in reply to what another poster said about Eternal Security, not predestination.

Christ is Lord said:

"That which wasn't attained by moral perfection cannot be lost by moral imperfection".

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Christ is Lord said:

And is everyone saved?

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The only ones saved are the ones Christ wills that they know Him. Or another way of saying this, all those that God gives to Christ., as in All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.

And about losing eternal salvation, can't lose what you never had.

Sort of like getting assigned to a team, God is doing the assigning for those who are to bear good fruit to Him, God is the Manager of Christ the True Vine. Does not the farmer plant his seed in his field, and it grows and produces the expected crop?

Parable of the Tares, and it is explained, so you have no excuse if you dont believe it as HE has so said it. The Son of Man, Christ, sows the good seed, who are growing up and are the sons of the kingdom.
The only other seed sown is that coming from the devil...

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

sdowney717 said:

The only ones saved are the ones Christ wills that they know Him. Or another way of saying this, all those that God gives to Christ., as in All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.

And about losing eternal salvation, can't lose what you never had.

Sort of like getting assigned to a team, God is doing the assigning for those who are to bear good fruit to Him, God is the Manager of Christ the True Vine. Does not the farmer plant his seed in his field, and it grows and produces the expected crop?

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I always have problems with that kind of theology of God picking and choosing who is saved. If I were an unbeliever I would say God is unfair and while that might sound absurd to us Christians to people outside it’s logical.

Christ is Lord said:

I always have problems with that kind of theology of God picking and choosing who is saved. If I were an unbeliever I would say God is unfair and while that might sound absurd to us Christians to people outside it’s logical.

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It is actually very logical.
If you realize that scripture says this about the natural carnal mind, it is at war against God.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Defining enmity is this

noun
the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
"decades of enmity between the two countries"
synonyms: hostility, animosity, antagonism, friction, antipathy, animus, opposition, dissension, rivalry, feud, conflict, discord, contention; acrimony, bitterness, rancor, resentment, aversion, dislike, ill feeling, bad feeling, ill will, bad blood, hatred, hate, loathing, detestation, abhorrence, odium; malice, spite, spitefulness, venom, malevolence, malignity; grudges, grievances;

So since that kind of mind has this kind of enmity, it has no desire to be obedient to the gospel.
It is why people must become born again FIRST before they can believe in Christ, so it is highly logical and also realistic.

Then consider also this.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If God had not chosen us in Christ, Christ would not have had any brethren. No one would have believed in Christ.

sdowney717 said:

It is actually very logical.
If you realize that scripture says this about the natural carnal mind, it is at war against God.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Defining enmity is this

noun
the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
"decades of enmity between the two countries"
synonyms: hostility, animosity, antagonism, friction, antipathy, animus, opposition, dissension, rivalry, feud, conflict, discord, contention; acrimony, bitterness, rancor, resentment, aversion, dislike, ill feeling, bad feeling, ill will, bad blood, hatred, hate, loathing, detestation, abhorrence, odium; malice, spite, spitefulness, venom, malevolence, malignity; grudges, grievances;

So since that kind of mind has this kind of enmity, it has no desire to be obedient to the gospel.
It is why people must become born again FIRST before they can believe in Christ, so it is highly logical and also realistic.

Then consider also this.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If God had not chosen us in Christ, Christ would not have had any brethren. No one would have believed in Christ.

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Yes but you made it sound as if God chooses people individually who will be saved.

Yes, that is the idea--that God chooses certain individuals, usually called "the elect."

Christ is Lord said:

Yes but you made it sound as if God chooses people individually who will be saved.

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He does exactly that.
I am not the one writing scripture.

Revelation 17:14

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

So who is with Christ? And how are they described?

sdowney717 said:

He does exactly that.
I am not the one writing scripture.

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So why would Jesus say he wishes that no one should perish? Doesn’t that make him sound impish? “I wish none of you should parish but don’t worry I’ve already picked who will be saved”.

EDIT: I believe God has specially chosen some people but I think some people take that idea way too far.

Christ is Lord said:

So why would Jesus say he wishes that no one should perish?

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That was his intention in creating humans, wasn't it? Only they had a different idea, not unlike the angels who rebelled in heaven. God obviously (I would say) would rather than none of these had misused the free will that he had endowed them with.

EDIT: I believe God has specially chosen some people but I think some people take that idea way too far.

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On this, I have no idea what you're getting at.