The resurrection of the dead...

devin553344 said:

Well I kinda think God will make the new bodies from His spirit as energy. That's how Jesus was made. From the Holy Spirit making a baby. I think Adam was formed from the elements in the earth, right? Dust of the earth.

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If we are in Messiah and He in us...we are already spiritual. Yahshua is the incorruptible Seed, which we have also received. Adam was formed as a union between a man and a woman. Originally, this marriage was to propagate children of Yah, but we know this was temporarily thwarted. However, from the beginning, the promise of the Seed of the woman was given to ensure spiritual descendants.

devin553344 said:

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead is a spiritual resurrection? A resurrection where the spirit can be to the measure of body?

1 Corinthians 15:44

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

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Jesus is discribed as the first fruits of thosew raised from the dead. ie he is the first to be raised to eternal life.
If he is the first then it follows that we will be like him.

Don't get sucked into unscriptual nonsence about the body/flesh being evil and the spirit being good etc.
Those in greece believed this sort of nonsence, as do many in the 'new age'.
#The bible is clear about a physical resurection.
It only talks about it as a real bodily resurection and of those trying to spread false teachings who talk about only a spiritual resurection.

ViaCrucis said:

Concupiscence will be gone, as such the bondage and slavery to sin which yokes us even now in our own bodily members

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First off, sexual desire was created by God and is NOT sinful at all.

devin553344 said:

I don't see marriage in heaven: Matthew 22:30

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Read it carefully. “Marry or given in marriage” indicates a NEW marriage; not an existing one. Marriages already done in this life probably will carry on in the New Earth.

devin553344 said:

Well I kinda think God will make the new bodies from His spirit as energy. That's how Jesus was made. From the Holy Spirit making a baby. I think Adam was formed from the elements in the earth, right? Dust of the earth.

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That borders on the Gnostic error of assuming the physical is evil. God made the physical and intends to redeem it.

devin553344 said:

Trying to get an idea of what you mean: So you'll be gathered from the dust like how he made Adam? Because most bodies in the grave are dust within the earth at this point. Withered over the years.

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Indeed. As Derek prince taught it, God knows where every atom and molecule of your body is, even millennia after you die and can reconstruct it just as you were.

While there may not be chapter and verse to prove that, there is also nothing to disprove it and it seems to fit the resurrection scenario rather well.

Dave-W said:

First off, sexual desire was created by God and is NOT sinful at all.

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I'm not talking pure sexual desire, but in the context of selfish, inward desire. Desire broken, twisted, and bent by sin toward selfishness. What in Lutheranism is called homo incurvatus in se, man bent inward upon himself. The curve of man's will and desire is toward himself, it faces inward, it seeks itself and puts self before all. God's way is that we be turned outward in love, love toward God and our neighbor. It's not about sexuality, it's about selfishness, pride, greed, malice, dishonesty, envy, covetousness, anger, hatred, violence, etc.

This inward brokenness is what I mean by concupiscence, the innate sinfulness of man. Our fallen inheritance from Adam. It is concupiscence that makes us sinners, and it is because we are sinners that our ways are sinful; it is the spring from which flows every sinful thought, word, and action.

It's why the commandments of God cannot make me just. I am not simply in need of slight behavior modification, I have a wretchedness at the core of my humanity, telling the old man what he ought to do accomplishes nothing except bring condemnation; what is needed is for the old man to die. The death of the old man has begun in this life through regeneration, our new birth from God by His grace; having been crucified and buried with Christ, and raised up together with Him to new life. And so there is now also the new man, the new creature in Jesus Christ, who lives by the gift, grace, and life of the Spirit, who can call out "Abba! Father!". But here in this world I am caught between the old man and the new man. Both a sinner and a saint. I desire that the old man should die and the new man should live, to drown the old and feed the new.

One day the old man shall finally be put to rest once and for all, and all that shall remain is the new man. At the resurrection of the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

devin553344 said:

Trying to get an idea of what you mean: So you'll be gathered from the dust like how he made Adam? Because most bodies in the grave are dust within the earth at this point. Withered over the years.

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Over the course of your mortal life your cells die and regenerate. You do not have the same cells you were born with. Likewise all the atoms which constitute your body are not the same atoms which constituted you when you were born. If I recall correctly about every seven years all the matter in our bodies is different than it was seven years prior. Meaning that you aren't made of the same atoms you were made of seven years ago.

And yet, in spite of the fact that all the matter which makes up your body changes, your body's identity still exists. You are still you.

There's an old philosophical question that asks this: There is a very famous wooden ship, now the ship has been taken and preserved for posterity. However as the years pass the wood degenerates and the nails rust, and in order to preserve the ship new wooden boards are brought in to place the rotting ones, and new nails are brought in to replace the rusted ones. This continues to happen for several centuries until every board and nail has been replaced.

Is it the same ship?

I think the answer is yes. Because it's not the individual wooden boards and nails that are the most important. Just as it isn't the particular atoms which make up your body which matter.

You are still you. Your body isn't a completely different body--even though it is constnatly recycling matter, cells are dying, new cells are replacing the old ones. The old atoms are being expelled through excretion, respiration, and other bodily processes while new atoms are replacing the old ones as you breathe, intake food and water, and other bodily processes.

In the resurrection what matters isn't that you are comprised of the precise same atoms--since even in this life you have been comprised of different atoms as you have lived and aged--what matters is that bodily identity.

The acorn "dies" and "rises" to become an oak tree. Not a peach tree. Not a birch tree. But an oak tree.

-CryptoLutheran

devin553344 said:

Can you show me where? I'd like to have a look. Thanks.

I have a hard time imagining them rising from actual graves in the literal sense. Because they're now buried 6 feet down and most are just bones at this point. In Jesus' time they would just roll away a stone to access the body.

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Sure. Consider these verses and not that the word grave does not just refer to the literal grave but anywhere the dead are. So if you drown in the sea, that is your grave.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

devin553344 said:

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead is a spiritual resurrection? A resurrection where the spirit can be to the measure of body?

1 Corinthians 15:44

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

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I think the confusion on this issue comes from a lack of defintion of what is meant by "Spiritual". The Lord's resurrection body (which we too will have - see Romans 6) was a physical body that could be touched, could eat, and still bore the marks of the cross. Spiritual does not mean "not-physical" but is in contrast to our current corrupted physical bodies that are subject to decay. Our new physical bodies will be spiritual (i.e. eternal), that is NOT subject to the ravages of time, sin and death, disease and weakness.

devin553344 said:

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead is a spiritual resurrection? A resurrection where the spirit can be to the measure of body?

1 Corinthians 15:44

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

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Jesus Christ of Nazareth physically resurrected. We will follow suit one day.

Dave-W said:

Read it carefully. “Marry or given in marriage” indicates a NEW marriage; not an existing one. Marriages already done in this life probably will carry on in the New Earth.

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No marriages in heaven between men and women. we are married to Christ as His bride, part of the church. Marriage is till death you do part. Mormons believe in celestial marriage, and having their own spirit children that will worship them.

We also dont get resurrected with new bodies , then come back and live in earthly houses and eat earthly food and have sexual relations.

sdowney717 said:

We also dont get resurrected with new bodies , then come back and live in earthly houses and eat earthly food and have sexual relations.

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That is all conjecture.

We will be living on the "New Earth;" (see Rev 22) and NOT in Heaven. There is nothing that says that marriages (or any other covenant relationships) here are dissolved in the after life.

There is NOTHING that says whether there will be sex in the after life or not. The verses in the Gospels that are taken as "proof texts" are stretched to say a lot of things that are not actually stated. (I have no idea why)

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

From that we are supposed to glean that angels are genderless, cannot engage in any kind of sexual activity; and that all marriages here become null and void. It says none of that.

Dave-W said:

That is all conjecture.

We will be living on the "New Earth;" (see Rev 22) and NOT in Heaven. There is nothing that says that marriages (or any other covenant relationships) here are dissolved in the after life.

There is NOTHING that says whether there will be sex in the after life or not. The verses in the Gospels that are taken as "proof texts" are stretched to say a lot of things that are not actually stated. (I have no idea why)

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

From that we are supposed to glean that angels are genderless, cannot engage in any kind of sexual activity; and that all marriages here become null and void. It says none of that.

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Angels can change themselves, into different things, and they have in scripture shown the capability.
But we are changed or transformed by the Lord and given our new bodies. So how can we change ourselves, not being angels?
And the angels that fell, left their proper abode and sinned creating the Nephilim and corrupting the whole world, that is actually of the flesh, involving the body and they got locked up by God to stop them. Their wisdom became earthly, carnal, devilish.

We though are given new spirits, and a new nature that can not sin. And that nature is a spiritual body not a flesh and blood body, and that new body is like His body.

We have a different nature than angels, even in the Resurrection.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written: “The first man Adam was made a living soul.” The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit.

46 However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

More of 1 Corinthians 15

35 But some man will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, unless it die.

37 And that which thou sowest is not that body which shall be, but bare grain, by chance of wheat or of some other grain.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written: “The first man Adam was made a living soul.” The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit.

46 However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

sdowney717 said:

Angels can change themselves, into different things, and they have in scripture shown the capability.
But we are changed or transformed by the Lord and given our new bodies. So how can we change ourselves, not being angels?
And the angels that fell, left their proper abode and sinned creating the Nephilim and corrupting the whole world, that is actually of the flesh, involving the body and they got locked up by God to stop them. Their wisdom became earthly, carnal, devilish.

We though are given new spirits, and a new nature that can not sin. And that nature is a spiritual body not a flesh and blood body, and that new body is like His body.

We have a different nature than angels, even in the Resurrection.

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Nothing you wrote there contradicts what I said.

BTW - I have never seen anywhere in scripture that angels could change their form.

You do know there are several different "species" of angels, right? Seraphim and Cherubim are mentioned by name. There is another class that appears completely human.

Dave-W said:

Nothing you wrote there contradicts what I said.

BTW - I have never seen anywhere in scripture that angels could change their form.

You do know there are several different "species" of angels, right? Seraphim and Cherubim are mentioned by name. There is another class that appears completely human.

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Sometimes they eat food as a man, and then turn into the fire. Is that not changing their form?