Defending Protestant Theology.

Neostarwcc

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Yes, and that is always the argument,"they were never saved to begin with", therefore "once saved always saved" is a misnomer IMO. This is misleading at best and a deception at worst. This OSAS should be renamed as it has caused much confusion in The Body of Christ. Maybe FTTE "faithful till the end".
Blessings

What's wrong with that argument? If you don't have the Holy Spirit than you can't be saved right? We both agree on this? Jesus tells us all about that to Nicodemus in Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. To claim that they had the Holy Spirit at one point and then lost it goes against scripture because scripture as I said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades. Which, of course I'm sure you're not claiming. You're claiming that they lose the Holy Spirit. But please, explain to me how that is possible because of the verses that I linked above in the OP.

Because if it is possible for us to lose the Holy Spirit than Christ, the Apostles, and the writer of Hebrews all lied when they said that salvation was once for all time.
 
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Skittles

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But a Protestant (and I) would argue that that man was never saved to begin with and never had the Holy Spirit. Because, the Holy Spirit resides in a believer for forever and seals him. We argue that one of the signs and jobs of the Holy Spirit is to keep a person in the faith for forever to make any of Christ's (and God's) promises even possible because Christ did promise to save his sheep for forever (See John 6:37-40 & John 10:27-29). David said it as well in Psalm 37:18 so it isn't a foreign concept.

There are "believers" who leave the faith, yes. But they were never saved to begin with.

While those believers are still “in the faith” and believe themselves to be saved....are they saved? If not then how does anyone know they have an assurance of salvation. Wouldn’t they all be deluding themselves unless they persevere in faith until the end?

As to your description of Sola Fide - a faith that bears works is truly a saving faith. That is consistent with Catholic teaching. What isn’t consistent is the idea that just having intellectual faith (absent works that flow from that faith) saves you.

Thanks for responding on the Clement quote - still missing how it supports Sola Scriptura.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Well I'm a Protestant I believe you can forfeit your salvation, by longer believing, and I'm not so sure about solo scriptoria as some people define it. The Spirit won't tell us anything that contradicts the Bible but that is not the same as saying the Bible is the only source of Truth.

Yup, never meant to claim that there weren't some of us out there that claim differently. But, the majority of the church does believe and claim these basic Protestant beliefs.
 
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Christ is Lord

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What's wrong with that argument? If you don't have the Holy Spirit than you can't be saved right? We both agree on this? Jesus tells us all about that to Nicodemus in Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. To claim that they had the Holy Spirit at one point and then lost it goes against scripture because scripture as I said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades. Which, of course I'm sure you're not claiming. You're claiming that they lose the Holy Spirit. But please, explain to me how that is possible because of the verses that I linked above in the OP.

Because if it is possible for us to lose the Holy Spirit than Christ, the Apostles, and the writer of Hebrews all lied when they said that salvation was once for all time.

Salvation is always linked to belief. If you no longer believe and reject that you aren’t saved.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Exactly. In the OT and NT people were saved by faith however, that doesn't mean that they can go and worship other Gods (which would be rejecting God and not showing loyalty to him).

I've yet to see a genuine believer go out and worship other god's though. That's just implied when we tell Christ/God "I accept you and only you for eternity."
 
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Neostarwcc

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Salvation is always linked to belief. If you no longer believe and reject that you aren’t saved.

But, this doesn't wash. The people who quote on quote "no longer believe" never had the Holy Spirit to begin with because if they did it would reside in them for forever and it would seal them for all time.
 
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Athanasius377

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The first pope was Peter not Clement (Clement was the 4th Pope after Peter, Linus and Cletus). But if Clement lives in the late 1st Century (he served as Pope from 88-97) how can he observe Sola Scriptura when the texts that would make up the full New Testament were only just completed and wouldn’t be canonized for another 300 years?
If you are referring to Carthage, Rome and Hippo in the fourth century recall those were local councils and not universally binding. The See of Rome did not make an ecumenical pronouncement until 1546 at Trent. Besides the "table of contents" argument is a poor argument because the church does not declare something to be scripture she merely recognizes that something is scripture.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What's wrong with that argument? If you don't have the Holy Spirit than you can't be saved right? We both agree on this? Jesus tells us all about that to Nicodemus in Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. To claim that they had the Holy Spirit at one point and then lost it goes against scripture because scripture as I said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades. Which, of course I'm sure you're not claiming. You're claiming that they lose the Holy Spirit. But please, explain to me how that is possible because of the verses that I linked above in the OP.

Because if it is possible for us to lose the Holy Spirit than Christ, the Apostles, and the writer of Hebrews all lied when they said that salvation was once for all time.
What is wrong with the argument? Lots of people who call themselves Christians sin willfully, most apparent, fornication. Scripture makes it clear this is a sin that will keep you out of the Body yet many who engage in sexual relations before marriage simply rely on "I am saved" so I do not have to worry about it. I know this first hand as I also sinned in this way until I repented. I know many other couples who do the same yet have not come to realization that they are being deceived by OSAS. You can continue to argue that these people are not saved at all however, this is a moot point as they think they are and would have difficulty repenting.
Blessings
 
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Albion

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I know many other couples who do the same yet have not come to realization that they are being deceived by OSAS.
They are being deceived by an erroneous understanding of OSAS that they picked up somewhere, not by OSAS itself.
 
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timewerx

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Second Sola Scriptura. The main argument that Luther had against the Catholic church was that how can we claim to follow God yet, not follow God's word but the words of a Pope who can be corrupted? The word of God on the other hand, cannot be corrupted because every person who has written scripture was carried along by the Holy Spirit and it is in fact, inerrant. Both Paul and Peter said it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 & 2 Peter 1:21..

Ironically, Jesus did not instruct us to depend on the scriptures for the Truth after He has left.

He gave rather explicit instruction to depend on the Holy Spirit only for The Truth. Even St. John confirms this in the New Testament. This instruction is confirmed twice. - John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27

Remember that the Word is God and the Word becoming flesh is Christ (John 1:1). And Jesus is the way, The Truth, and the life. And eventually comes back to us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Even though Apostle Paul said "All scriptures is good for teaching", Paul gave no explicit instruction to depend on it for the Truth.

Indeed, the scriptures / Bible is good for teaching - it does tell us what to look for!


Sadly, most Christians treat this other way around - they Think the Holy Spirit will point you back to the Bible. This isn't the case in reality....

Why we have so many denominations, why so many divisions within Christianity??? There you go! We have undeniable facts to prove the majority have misused / used the Bible for the wrong reasons and have denied themselves the Truth.

Worldly ways, worldly thoughts, the ways of the flesh is what makes one doubt the Holy Spirit and cannot see beyond the physical (like the physical Bible). Because the world opposes the Spirit.

We can only cheer for one team, not two, you cannot serve two masters.
 
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Neostarwcc

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While those believers are still “in the faith” and believe themselves to be saved....are they saved? If not then how does anyone know they have an assurance of salvation. Wouldn’t they all be deluding themselves unless they persevere in faith until the end?

As to your description of Sola Fide - a faith that bears works is truly a saving faith. That is consistent with Catholic teaching. What isn’t consistent is the idea that just having intellectual faith (absent works that flow from that faith) saves you.

Thanks for responding on the Clement quote - still missing how it supports Sola Scriptura.

That's a good question. A person can believe that they're saved and still not be saved you're right.

In order to have assurance of salvation you have to for one, know that you're making an eternal commitment to Christ. My personal conversion, I feel like I didn't choose God, but God chose me. Because I was perfectly content with being miserable and stuck in my sin my entire life. If your life shows fruits of the spirit, another way to know that you have the Holy Spirit is if there is a general sense of Happiness in your life where there wasn't happiness before, you start being convicted of and repenting of your sins, you no longer live in sin, several things really. A majority of the cases of "Ex-Christians"

Christ also put it this way in Luke 8:13:


"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

While Christ doesn't directly say "They never had the Holy Spirit" he kind of implies it.

I'm too tired right now to give Bible verses but there are plenty of verses in the Bible that talk about how you know for without a doubt that you are eternally saved.

Like I said, salvation isn't as simple as "believing" and being done with it. It's a faith that is never alone. It will ALWAYS show works and obedience. If it is not immediate it will come over time. And most of all, they will notice a COMPLETE and total change of life. I told many people here about my previous life, right? About how bad of a person I was, about I basically had no remorse and didn't care for others ...etc. I know I have the Holy Spirit for two main reasons. For one, I actually saw Christ give me the Holy Spirit in a vision (But 99.99% of Christians don't get to experience that.), and for two, I've seen the DRASTIC change that my life has made since I accepted Christ. I cannot explain it, but I KNOW that I will have faith for the rest of my life and I KNOW that nothing will separate me from that faith. I couldn't even leave Christ if I WANTED to. Hence his statements in John 10:27-29 making sense.

These examples of Christians who have left the faith never fully believed because if they did they would have shown examples of fruits of the spirit, they would have naturally had good works as God , they would have been happy with their lives, they would have been convicted of their sins (Let's face it a majority of them actually LIVED in their sin and had no remorse over their sins at all), they tend to blame God for all of their problems and cannot understand how God can be love and do all of these "horrible" things. The list just goes on and on.

I never claimed it supported Sola Scriptura but hasn't that been a Catholic belief for like forever? You believe the word of God to be the word of God right? So why not go by scripture alone? It seems the early popes thought that way. Peter certainly did if it's true that he was a pope.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Ironically, Jesus did not instruct us to depend on the scriptures for the Truth after He has left.

He gave rather explicit instruction to depend on the Holy Spirit only for The Truth. Even St. John confirms this in the New Testament. This instruction is confirmed twice. - John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27

Remember that the Word is God and the Word becoming flesh is Christ (John 1:1). And Jesus is the way, The Truth, and the life. And eventually comes back to us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Even though Apostle Paul said "All scriptures is good for teaching", Paul gave no explicit instruction to depend on it for the Truth.

Indeed, the scriptures / Bible is good for teaching - it does tell us what to look for!


Sadly, most Christians treat this other way around - they Think the Holy Spirit will point you back to the Bible. This isn't the case in reality....

Why we have so many denominations, why so many divisions within Christianity??? There you go! We have undeniable facts to prove the majority have misused / used the Bible for the wrong reasons and have denied themselves the Truth.

Worldly ways, worldly thoughts, the ways of the flesh is what makes one doubt the Holy Spirit and cannot see beyond the physical (like the physical Bible). Because the world opposes the Spirit.

We can only cheer for one team, not two, you cannot serve two masters.

But it's widely accepted that Scripture was mostly written by the Holy Spirit, yes? Or those who were under guidance of the Holy Spirit anyway.

But, I do agree with you that Christians should be listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit as he leads them into sanctification. Sola Scriptura doesn't deny this fact it just states that a majority of our doctrine should come from scripture as it is the very word of God and is taught through the entirety of it to be inerrant.

When Christ was being tempted by the Devil he used the word of God to overcome those temptations. The same goes with us, really.
 
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Albion

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Ironically, Jesus did not instruct us to depend on the scriptures for the Truth after He has left.
I don't know that that is correct. Jesus referred to the Scriptures on a number of occasions in order to prove some point of doctrine or moral behavior.
 
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Christ is Lord

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said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

Yeah. We’re sealed once we continue to believe this is why the author of Hebrews was so concerned about continual belief.
 
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Neostarwcc

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What is wrong with the argument? Lots of people who call themselves Christians sin willfully, most apparent, fornication. Scripture makes it clear this is a sin that will keep you out of the Body yet many who engage in sexual relations before marriage simply rely on "I am saved" so I do not have to worry about it. I know this first hand as I also sinned in this way until I repented. I know many other couples who do the same yet have not come to realization that they are being deceived by OSAS. You can continue to argue that these people are not saved at all however, this is a moot point as they think they are and would have difficulty repenting.
Blessings

Yes but it's not just me that doesn't call these people "not Christians" It's Luther as well as his main points of Sola Fide was that while we were saved by Faith alone the faith that saves was never alone. He was VERY clear on this and Protestants who claim to follow Luther yet don't follow this very basic teaching of his in my opinion, not a Protestant. That or a minority. They're not only protestants but they aren't true Christians. Christ even says that he desires his followers to be "all in" in multiple parts of the gospel.

When a person accepts Christ they accept ALL of Christ that comes with it. The willingness to completely and totally leave their old lives behind and begin a new life with Christ, the willingness to obey with what God wants for their lives and not what they personally want for their lives, the list just goes on and on.

Just because I believe that Protestants and Luther have the right interpretation of scripture does not mean that I cannot accept that there are not Christians of many other beliefs that are still genuinely saved. You don't have to be a Protestant to be saved despite what some Protestant preachers preach.

When I accepted Christ I went "all in" and I believe that every Christian should be "all in". This is the kind of faith that saves. Whether you are a Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or... whatever random denomination of Christianity if you went "all in" for Christ than you are saved. Period. Done and nothing can take your salvation away. Period.

Otherwise, there is no salvation and you are not a true born again Christian. But, that's just my opinion.
 
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The only difference is though, the Early church did not believe that we couldn't lose our salvation by a lack of faith and Luther defended and started the argument that we CANNOT lose our salvation for ANY reason.
I'm a big fan of sola fide, but FYI, this is factually untrue. Luther did believe you could lose your salvation through walking away from faith. (But you don't lose it as a result of sin).
 
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Neostarwcc

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I'm a big fan of sola fide, but FYI, this is factually untrue. Luther did believe you could lose your salvation through walking away from faith. (But you don't lose it as a result of sin).

Really? I wasn't aware of this. Mind posting an article?
 
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Dave L

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Okay so my wife and I were discussing last night about how the basic theologies of Protestantism were found in scripture and that we should make a topic defending it so, here it goes.

I don't need to defend Eternal security because there are already a bazillion threads on the issue at the moment and this thread would easily get to 100+ pages in a week but I would like to defend Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

First Sola Fide. The fact of the matter is Sola Fide wasn't just believed/taught by Luther and Protestants throughout history it was in fact, believed by the Early Church and the Apostles as well. Yes, even the Catholic Church. The very first pope, Pope Clement I believed in Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. The only difference is though, the Early church did not believe that we couldn't lose our salvation by a lack of faith and Luther defended and started the argument that we CANNOT lose our salvation for ANY reason. This particular belief did not start in the church until Luther (And it is argued that the apostles taught it but that it died with the church after they all died) but it is scriptural. Mainly because of these verses in scripture (John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, John 5:24, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 5:10-13, 1 Peter 1:4-5 & more.) Yes, even in Hebrews and John's letters where the so called "offending" verses were contained there were verses stating when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive it FOREVER and you HAVE eternal life FOREVER and were sanctified ONCE FOR ALL TIME even Christ himself said it (John 14:16). Peter said it, Paul said it (Ephesians 1:13-14, & Romans 8:9) John said it, The writer of Hebrews said it, the list just goes on and on.

So tell me, if we have the Holy Spirit for forever, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation for forever, just how is it that we can lose our salvation again? Was the Early church and the church today who believes that you can lose your salvation by lack of faith trying to claim that the Holy Spirit will be living inside of us when we go to Hades, or the Lake of Fire? Because if they are, that sounds preposterous! How could this have been taught by the Early church?

So far there has not been a single viable argument that Christians who do believe that you can lose your salvation by a lack of faith or that Sola Fide is a false doctrine can come up with that has satisfied Protestants or really anybody else capable of reading and applying the Bible as a whole (and we've been fighting about these topics for over 500 years now). However, Protestants can explain each and every offending verse in scripture because otherwise the Reformation would have died years and years ago since we believe in Sola Scriptura as well which, I'll get to in a moment. So, after saying all of this why is it that Protestants and Luther aren't right about scripture again? Especially when literally ALL of our basic teachings are taught THROUGHOUT the Bible? Just because our church is divided by people who are pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro women pastors, pro feminism, and other minor issues does NOT mean that we don't agree with each other on these basic points and it does NOT mean that Protestantism is a false church or w/e other Christians who disagree with the Reformation claim it to be. It also doesn't mean that those of us Protestants that do believe in Sola Scriptura should NOT defend the Bible say that those particular beliefs are WRONG and against God because the Bible teaches that they are from Genesis to Revelation.


Now that we've covered the part of Sola Fide that says that you cannot lose your salvation let's take a look at what the Bible says salvation even is. The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 4:1-25, Romans 3:28, Ephesians 2:8-10, Acts 16:31, John 3:16, 1 John 5:10-13, Philippians 3:9, John 5:24, to name a few)

While it's true that the words faith alone are never stated anywhere in the Bible it is implied throughout scripture. Nowhere in scripture does it say that we are saved by our faith + works, or by our faith + baptism or by our faith + anything. The Bible just says faith. When Paul was asked by the Jailer "Sir, what must I do to be saved?" notice Paul didn't say "You have to be baptized or you have to do good works...etc" he said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

In Romans 10:13 Paul states that EVERYONE who calls upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved and this matches up with what Christ says in John 6:37 where Christ promises not to cast a SINGLE person out.

When the thief on the cross was saved by Christ, he was saved by his faith. He didn't have a chance to do any works or baptism because he was condemned to death along with Jesus. Yet, he is with Christ right now from the moment he died over 2,000 years ago to this very moment. And he will be with Christ, FOR FOREVER.

The words "Holy Trinity" are also not contained in the Bible but yet that has been a mainstream belief among Christians for a REALLY long time now. That doesn't necessarily mean that the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong. There is plenty of evidence supporting the Holy Trinity. Just like there is plenty of evidence supporting Sola Fide.

We ARE saved by our faith alone but the faith that saves, is never alone. It will ALWAYS have works and obedience. When we were saved we dedicated our lives to Christ and God's will for our lives not our own.

Second Sola Scriptura. The main argument that Luther had against the Catholic church was that how can we claim to follow God yet, not follow God's word but the words of a Pope who can be corrupted? The word of God on the other hand, cannot be corrupted because every person who has written scripture was carried along by the Holy Spirit and it is in fact, inerrant. Both Paul and Peter said it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 & 2 Peter 1:21. So why is it that we should obey the doctrine of man and the "changing times" when scripture should be the #1 source of our theology. It's true, each Christian denomination has a separate interpretation of scripture but the fact of the matter is, that ALL Christians should go to the word of God FIRST and ONLY before they obey the doctrines of men. Even Paul (and Christ) warned us not to be conformed to this world (Romans 12:2 & John 17:16). The world has been evil from the beginning and many evil and Godless things are being "allowed" into this world ever since the beginning of time. So why take your theology from the world when the word of God cannot become corrupted?

Oh I realize that there are now Bibles that have been corrupted to say that homosexual marriage is "okay" and abortion is "okay" and divorce ...etc is "okay" but when you translate/look at the Bible as a whole and use 99.9% of the English translations of the Bible they ALL state that they are in fact, not okay.
Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works = no works no salvation.
 
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Albion

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I'm a big fan of sola fide, but FYI, this is factually untrue. Luther did believe you could lose your salvation through walking away from faith. (But you don't lose it as a result of sin).
That's my understanding also, FWIW.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Yeah. We’re sealed once we continue to believe this is why the author of Hebrews was so concerned about continual belief.

So what you're saying is that seal can be broken? But this goes against what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:22 when he said that this seal was a "guarantee" of our salvation. It would also go against many of the statements of eternal security that Christ & the apostles said. Especially John 6:37-40 when he said that he wouldn't lose a single believer.

I didn't mean to make this thread a debate about Eternal Security since there are so many threads already arguing this subject but, it kind of has to be brought up I guess.
 
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