Faith and Obedience

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So you agree that faith and obedience are not really two separate things?

Faith and works are two things but they are united together as one. Think of it sort of like a marriage. Man and woman are distinctly different, but they are to become one flesh if they are married. The question remains does works of faith save? Well, even if you didn't believe works in and of themselves save; Such a thing would need to be there to at least prove that one's faith is genuine. So in short, works are needed to show that one has truly been saved. So no matter how you slice it, works play a part in our salvation (Unless you believe a person can have a belief alone in the Savior and they can be unfruitful for the Lord and or not live holy for Him and yet they are still saved). If Faith Alone is true, then no amount of works is needed and no amount of holy living is needed. Just a belief in a set of historical facts.
 
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Sounds like what Martin Luther said. "We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone."

Martin Luther also said,
"No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day""

He doesn't sound like a person I want to follow.
 
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Romans 3:28 for good measure - "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

When I say "faith alone", I mean "faith apart from works".

Paul is referring to the Old Law (i.e. via by the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism).
This heresy of Circumcision Salvationism was addressed at the Jerusalem council.

Here are the verses:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

I hope this helps, and may God bless you today.
 
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You have made my point and the same can be repeated over and over again when reading scripture.
There are many apparent contradictions---one must come to understand first Life and the Life Giver. Not the penned words, but the Lord behind them. Come to 'know' Him and He will reveal Himself to you.
To truly walk with Him and be taught by Him, is not near the same thing as studying.

The Bible says that anyone does not hear the prophet Jesus shall be destroyed.

"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).​

Jesus says if any man does not receive His words, those very words will judge them on the last day.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).​

What words of Jesus can judge us on the last day if we do not receive them?

For starters, please read: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.
 
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huiothesia

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Regardless of where any of us stand on doctrine--we will all be judged in that great day. All of the things we have done in the flesh since Salvation will be judged to be this or that. These things will be obvious at that time. What I am saying is simple. Its not these works of either wood hay and stubble or gold that save us---these things have no bearing on the Adoption. The Lord does not give eternal Life and then take it away. That is ludicrous. Again---one must first understand the simplicity of the Gospel first and accept it as 'little children', before the Paraclete can speak to us of Christ and Life. Studying and accumulating earthly knowledge is secondary and more often than not a hindrance to maturity. Why? The principle of the tree of knowledge and the tower building attempt to reach him.
 
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Regardless of where any of us stand on doctrine--we will all be judged in that great day. All of the things we have done in the flesh since Salvation will be judged to be this or that. These things will be obvious at that time. What I am saying is simple. Its not these works of either wood hay and stubble or gold that save us---these things have no bearing on the Adoption. The Lord does not give eternal Life and then take it away. That is ludicrous. Again---one must first understand the simplicity of the Gospel first and accept it as 'little children', before the Paraclete can speak to us of Christ and Life. Studying and accumulating earthly knowledge is secondary and more often than not a hindrance to maturity. Why? The principle of the tree of knowledge and the tower building attempt to reach him.

Yet, you are not explaining any of the verses I brought forth so as to help others believe what you do.

As for the building materials of 1 Corinthians 3:

Hebrews 5:13-14 says,
13 “For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

Strong meat belongs to those who know how to discern between good and evil.

Paul condemned the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5 for allowing sexual immorality to take place among them. They were to kick out that brother who was in an immoral sexual affair. Paul said not to keep company with a brother who was sexually immoral.

See, “sin” is about “self” and it about uplifting man instead of God. It is why some boasted they were of Paul and others boasted they were of Apollos.

In 1 Corinthians 3 it is talking about works of gold. This is the type of work you do based on what is in your heart. Hence, it makes up who you are (a part of God's building). But do not confuse sin as being stubble or hay. Those are not works that will be burned. They are good works you do for the Lord that turn out to not be true pure works that God desires as a part of His building. But you cannot have gold and sin in your building. For 1 Corinthians 3:17 says if any man defile the temple (which is obviously by sin), then God will destroy them. This means they are not saved because they will be destroyed and not saved through the fire.

But what about when Paul said the Corinthians were still yet carnal and he needed to speak to them as if they were babes in Christ?

The word “carnal” actually means unregenerate; unsaved. How can we have unsaved Christians? Paul states in the second letter to the Corinthians that he was afraid when he came to them he would be embarrassed and find many which had sinned and not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lasciviousness which they had committed. He feared there would be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder (2 Corinthians 12:20 through 2 Corinthians 13:5).

As for eternal life:
Well, eternal life is not a superpower. Eternal life is a person. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.
 
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huiothesia

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What is it exactly that you are struggling against, here?

As for have a battle of scripture, I won't do that. I have done far more than enough of that over the years. What I will do is beg those reading to seek their Lord as little children without understanding and to ask Him to reveal Himself. Walk with Him and come to know Him as He deals with you and your failures and know always that if you confess, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse.
There are bible teachers more than can be counted saying all kinds of disparate things. This can't be avoided. The Way is Christ and the One He left to dwell in us and with us--the Helper. Avail yourself of Him and trust Him. He is the One that walks along side.
 
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What is it exactly that you are struggling against, here?

As for have a battle of scripture, I won't do that. I have done far more than enough of that over the years. What I will do is beg those reading to seek their Lord as little children without understanding and to ask Him to reveal Himself. Walk with Him and come to know Him as He deals with you and your failures and know always that if you confess, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse.
There are bible teachers more than can be counted saying all kinds of disparate things. This can't be avoided. The Way is Christ and the One He left to dwell in us and with us--the Helper. Avail yourself of Him and trust Him. He is the One that walks along side.

The problem is that Christ is holy and He cannot justify our agreement with sin on any level.
1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.
The mind of Christ never justified sin in any way.
So if this is the case, then we cannot have a mindset that justifies sin.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
 
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Your responses don't seem to be related to mine.
What is it that you are struggling against?

Not true. You suggested that sin are the inferior works that will be burned in 1 Corinthians 3. This is not biblical nor is it moral.
 
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I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

Good post. John tells us how to have assurance, and not the false assurance of OSAS, but the way to live. 1 John 3:21-23. Not only obedience, but John shows us many times that we must abide in Jesus, and those who do, their prayers are answered. Before I was born again of the Spirit, not one prayer was answered in 30 years.
 
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Good works/obedience flow out of that as a byproduct of salvation, not a requirement

How assured is you salvation without obedience? You need to rethink that according to what John calls assurance.

1 John 3:21-23
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

I also love my prayers being answered. That didn't happen before I was 30 and I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, then my nature was completely changed, and since then 100% of my prayers are answered. But the gifts of the Spirit are involved. God prophesies what I am to pray, I repeat His words, and the prayer is answered miraculously.
 
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Danthemailman

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1. Given that OSAS is not a doctrine found in the Bible as we see explained here...
Yesterday at 5:39 PM #1
All we saw explained there was misinterpreted passages of scripture taken out of context.

2. And given that only those who make the constant choice to "persevere" firm until the end "SHALL be " saved.
The same one's who "persevere" firm until the end are the same one's who truly have been and shall be saved.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you shall become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast firm until the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast firm until the end."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Matt 24:13 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Works-salvationists tend to confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. The one's who endure to the end are the same one's who are saved. Believers do not merely persevere in their own strength and are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:8) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's very important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

4. and given that it is indeed possible to be "severed from Christ ... fallen from grace" Gal 5:4
Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness revoked for the one who has been "forgiven all that debt"
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? In Galatians 3:3, we read: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

There are those today who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" who have not yet found access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:2)

Then it is certain that two things a true.

A. Obedience is only possible for the one that is forgiven, born-again, saved Rom 8:4-11
Amen! Without faith it's impossible to please God and we are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Attempted obedience (on our terms and not the Lord's) "apart from faith" is not obedience.

B. Failure to persevere on the part of the saved saint - will get them into hell.
Those who fail to persevere demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Only genuine saints persevere and are preserved by God. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James. To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.
 
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huiothesia

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Not true. You suggested that sin are the inferior works that will be burned in 1 Corinthians 3. This is not biblical nor is it moral.
You must have misunderstood me. I did not mean that at all. I know well that is not the case.
Now I see at least in part what you are struggling against.
 
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huiothesia

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All we saw explained there was misinterpreted passages of scripture taken out of context.

The same one's who "persevere" firm until the end are the same one's who truly have been and shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you shall become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast firm until the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast firm until the end."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Works-salvationists tend to confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. The one's who endure to the end are the same one's who are saved. Believers do not merely persevere in their own strength and are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:8) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's very important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? In Galatians 3:3, we read: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

There are those today who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" who have not yet found access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:2)

Amen! Without faith it's impossible to please God and we are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Attempted obedience (on our terms and not the Lord's) "apart from faith" is not obedience.

Those who fail to persevere demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Only genuine saints persevere and are preserved by God. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James. To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.
This is very good. Very good indeed.
You have illustrated wonderfully, just what I meant when inferring how easily scriptures--particularly NT letters can be twisted to mean what isn't said and why it is so important to first be well grounded in the simplicity of the Gospel of Life and understanding what it is that God desired to accomplish 'In Christ'. Old man----New Man. These things are as simple as night and day and yet folks prefer to operate under the principle of the tree of knowledge and the towers that follow.
We cannot build a tower to God, nor can we assist. We can work along side Him 'In Christ' and because of Christ, but this is not the same thing. The 'works' were prepared by Him and ordained 'In Him' before the beginning.
Grace my friends. Unmerited favor.
The heart of man is forever adept at imagining 'speciality'. I am more special than you.
Its these things that divide.
 
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You must have misunderstood me. I did not mean that at all. I know well that is not the case.

#1. Do you believe in Belief Alone-ism (Saved by a Belief Alone and not works)?
#2. Do you believe in Eternal Security?
#3. Do you believe future sin is forgiven a believer?
#4. Do you believe that a saint or Christian can die in one or two unconfessed sins and still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life?

Please answer these four questions above with a "yes" or a "no."

Please understand that I am a Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura (Bible alone + the Anointing in 1 John 2:27), non-denominational Christian.

I believe a Christian is to obey the New Covenant commands and not the Old Law (as a whole or as a contract). For the Old Law is no longer binding on the life of a believer (Hence, why Paul talks about how we are not under the "Law", i.e. the Old Law or the Torah). But make no mistake, Paul was not against the commands of Jesus Christ and those of his followers (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I believe a Christian is saved by "Justification" (i.e. accepting Christ as Savior, believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him involving a godly sorrow), and in "Sanctification" (i.e. the process of living holy and being fruitful by God working through us).

You said:
Now I see at least in part what you are struggling against.

You see a struggle where none exists. I have no struggle. It exists only in your own imagination.
I challenge you to give a commentary on such verses like Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, 1 John 3:15, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 8:13, and Revelation 22:14. Don't do it for me, do it so as to help somebody who is coming across this website (who just happens to be reading). If you truly stand behind what you believe, you should have an explanation for these verses in light of your belief. So far, I don't see you doing that.
 
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This is very good. Very good indeed.
You have illustrated wonderfully, just what I meant when inferring how easily scriptures--particularly NT letters can be twisted to mean what isn't said and why it is so important to first be well grounded in the simplicity of the Gospel of Life and understanding what it is that God desired to accomplish 'In Christ'. Old man----New Man. These things are as simple as night and day and yet folks prefer to operate under the principle of the tree of knowledge and the towers that follow.
We cannot build a tower to God, nor can we assist. We can work along side Him 'In Christ' and because of Christ, but this is not the same thing. The 'works' were prepared by Him and ordained 'In Him' before the beginning.
Grace my friends. Unmerited favor.
The heart of man is forever adept at imagining 'speciality'. I am more special than you.
Its these things that divide.

So you believe as I suspected. I have argued with Dan before. He is an advocate of Eternal Security or that future sin is forgiven you. This is also what you believe because you are in agreement with him. The problem with Eternal Security is that while it says that a Christian will live holy and or do good works as a natural result of being saved by faith alone (or a belief alone in Christ), it can easily lead others to contradict themselves when it comes to talking about sin and forgiveness. It is a type of unbiblical belief that seeks to minimize sin and the reality that we have to endure to the end to be saved.
 
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huiothesia

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#1. Do you believe in Belief Alone-ism (Saved by a Belief Alone and not works)?
#2. Do you believe in Eternal Security?
#3. Do you believe future sin is forgiven a believer?
#4. Do you believe that a saint or Christian can die in one or two unconfessed sins and still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life?

Please answer these four questions above with a "yes" or a "no."

Please understand that I am a Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura (Bible alone + the Anointing in 1 John 2:27), non-denominational Christian.

I believe a Christian is to obey the New Covenant commands and not the Old Law (as a whole or as a contract). For the Old Law is no longer binding on the life of a believer (Hence, why Paul talks about how we are not under the "Law", i.e. the Old Law or the Torah). But make no mistake, Paul was not against the commands of Jesus Christ and those of his followers (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I believe a Christian is saved by "Justification" (i.e. accepting Christ as Savior, believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness with Him involving a godly sorrow), and in "Sanctification" (i.e. the process of living holy and being fruitful by God working through us).



You see a struggle where none exists. I have no struggle. It exists only in your own imagination.
I challenge you to give a commentary on such verses like Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, 1 John 3:15, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 8:13, and Revelation 22:14. Don't do it for me, do it so as to help somebody who is coming across this website (who just happens to be reading). If you truly stand behind what you believe, you should have an explanation for these verses in light of your belief. So far, I don't see you doing that.
It is so easy to pigeon hole people isn't it?
This is one of the problems with factions--the spirit behind it seeks to build walls between brothers and sisters and to set one against the other. This is the greatest sorrow of the 'Church Age' and what grieves our Father more than any other.
I will share that dream the Lord sent some years ago. I mentioned it in that other thread I added to.
-----There was a great field and in that field were a great many bodies that had been dismembered in the most heinous fashion. Parts and pieces all over. As I was looking at the scene a word came to my mind that described it. It was a word that has no human equivalent, but was a combination of things like horror, disgust and atrocity. I didn't know the word then and I haven't since, but it was a powerful impression. Very powerful and impossible to describe. I woke like a shot from a cannon and said, "Lord, what the heck was that". He said, "that is how I feel when I see my body divided".
The impact that lesson had on me can't be overstated.--------

I will play.
#1. No--'the devils believe and tremble'
#2. Yes--to those who God made eternally secure.
#3. Yes--but the question is leading the witness.
#4. Yes--But again, the question itself suggests a lack of understanding

A thing to consider...what is the Holy Spirit's role in this age?
1. To convict of sin
2. To point to and glorify Christ.

Anything else--anything at all--and He is not involved. This is the metric that we all need to keep in mind as we walk. The vast majority of the 'activity' within christendom does not fit within this metric.
We can and ought to judge ourselves, as we will one day judge a great deal more.
 
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Oldmantook

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Jesus says a good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. So no. They never really truly operated by God's power if they were not abiding in Christ. Salvation is a person, and it is not believing in a set of historical facts alone. Just having one's mind involved does not mean anything unless one's heart is involved. Faith is matter of the heart. If there is no heart in accepting Christ, there is no salvation. A person must be broken with a godly sorrow whereby they will then seek forgiveness with the Lord and make good on their promise to Him. The truth (Jesus) can only abide in a person who keeps his commandments (See: 1 John 2:3-4).

1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Did they have the Son? Did they have life?
This is where we disagree. Matt 7:21-23 goes on to state “21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus never backs up your claim that they "never really truly operated by God's power." The verse states IN YOUR NAME they cast out demons, prophesied, and did many wonders which indicates the opposite of your assertion. Only genuine believers are given the authority and power to do such things. Unbelievers are never given the authority and power to use the Savior's name to accomplish such things. Witness the sons of Sceva who attempted to do the same thing but were unsuccessful to say the least. V.21 states that only those who do the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven. This is the requirement. Despite prophesying, casting out demons and wonder in His name, they practiced lawless (v.23) and as a result they failed to do the will of the Father (obey Him) and are told to depart. These believers who did supernatural things in Jesus' name still practiced disobedience/lawlessness in their personal lives contrary to the Father's will and consequently reaped what they sowed - departure from the Father.
 
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Romans 3 -
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true

The question comes from the Romans 2 fact that Paul was giving salvation "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" then also dooming both to hell if they chose rebellion "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" where he even goes to so far as to say "the Name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you" and ends Romans 2 this way ...

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In saying that in chapter 2 - Paul appears to have wiped out any sense of "advantage" even among Christians that a Jew had vs a gentile. So in Chapter 3 he points out that the long history of the Jews with God including the giving of scripture through the Jews - vs the pagan history of gentiles... is an Advantage for physical Jews.

Well, I disagree, friend. Paul says to the Galatians that if you seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law) you have fallen from grace. We are all one in Christ. There is no set of laws that are different between Jews and Gentiles under the New Covenant as a part of following the Messiah. There is only one set of laws for us to both follow and that are the laws given to us by Jesus and His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Jesus was even making changes to the Law even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with his death.
 
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