Why reject OSAS ? Because the Bible does not support it.? or..?

BobRyan

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If one continues living a sinful life without asking for forgiveness and repents (turns away from sin) they won't be saved ... the Lords word is clear on that.

True and I would venture to say that most Christian groups even those who teach OSAS would agree with you on that point.

The question in the OP is about cases where someone does repent and is saved and is "forgiven all that debt" Matt 18 but then experiences "forgiveness revoked" and must then "repay all" .

We were created with free will and that fact never changes while we are alive on earth.

Free will - the ability to act at one's own discretion
Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Hebrews 10:26

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Well there you have it - no guesswork or extreme inference needed -it is right there in the text as you point out
 
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Neostarwcc

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There is a group of Baptists - "Free Will Baptists" that affirm that the Bible does not support OSAS.

But they're a small minority of Bapists. The Majority of the Protestants do believe that the Bible does in fact, support OSAS/Eternal Security.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
There is a group of Baptists - "Free Will Baptists" that affirm that the Bible does not support OSAS.

But they're a small minority of Bapists. The Majority of the Protestants do believe that the Bible does in fact, support OSAS/Eternal Security.

Certainly it is true that "Free Will Baptists" are a small segment of Baptists among the many different Baptist groups

It is also true that the SDA denomination is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world according to a "Christianity Today" article in Feb 2015 - and they also affirm the fact that OSAS is not supported in scripture.

It is also true that John Wesley and a great many Methodists after him are on record as knowing that the are aware that the Bible does not support OSAS.

So aside from Presbyterian and Baptists that are not Free Will Baptists, who are the other OSAS groups that you classify as Protestant??
 
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JIMINZ

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If one continues living a sinful life without asking for forgiveness and repents (turns away from sin) they won't be saved ... the Lords word is clear on that.

We were created with free will and that fact never changes while we are alive on earth.

Free will - the ability to act at one's own discretion

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Hebrews 10:26

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

With this being the Definition of SIN, either Willfully, or Un-willfully

1 Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

How then does a Born Again Believer, commit SIN when they are dead to the Law?

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
 
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JIMINZ

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Everyone and his brother declares proudly, WE have Free Will even though Free Will is not supported in the Bible in the way you believe it to be, any more than OSAS is, but you all believe it anyway.

What does Free Will afford you, how do you express it, today you chose to wear a blue shirt rather than a red one?

1) Are you able to stop Sinning by exercising your Free Will to do so?
2) Are you able to stop Sinning once you receive Salvation?

Free Will only pertains to the Physical, Temporal World, it does not possess the ability to Operate in the Spiritual realm.

Free Will is not independent unto itself, it is only able to operate under the umbrella of Dominion, which is the God given ability to Order your life in the Physical Realm, and make decisions on how and what to do in it.

But when it comes to the Spiritual Realm, it is a non entity, your Free Will is useless, you say, you have the Free Will to walk away from Salvation either when it is offered or after receiving it.

But can any one of you choose to receive Salvation, when you decide to?
Did any one of you decide to receive Salvation before you actually received it?
 
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JIMINZ

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Could you possibly find better wording for your post, it does sound sort of contradictory.

If you truly have God in you,
you will know OSAS is an evil doctrine.
Doesn't need intelligence or logic to confirm this.
It is the truth from God.

What makes you so positive it's an evil Doctrine?
 
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Danthemailman

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Neostarwcc

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Certainly it is true that "Free Will Baptists" are a small segment of Baptists among the many different Baptist groups

It is also true that the SDA denomination is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world according to a "Christianity Today" article in Feb 2015 - and they also affirm the fact that OSAS is not supported in scripture.

It is also true that John Wesley and a great many Methodists after him are on record as knowing that the are aware that the Bible does not support OSAS.

So aside from Presbyterian and Baptists that are not Free Will Baptists, who are the other OSAS groups that you classify as Protestant??

Virtually every other Protestant group because the vast majority of Protestants agree with Luther's findings and theologies that he made in the 1,500's a.k.a sola scriptura, sola fide, and Eternal Security. And it's not that they aren't "Protestant" it's just that a majority of Baptists and Protestants will disagree with their theology.

Not every Catholic agrees with the mainstream views of Catholicism either but it doesn't make them any more or less Catholic.

Yes, your denomination IS large in number but some of what it teaches is just not in line with what the Bible, the Apostles, and Christ himself taught. Your denomination claims that we have to keep the Sabbath and the Law to be saved something that just isn't found in scripture and wasn't taught by Christ or by the Apostles and Early church. It was taught that the Israelites had to keep the Sabbath and the Law in order to be quote on quote "saved" but after Christ came and perfectly fulfilled the Law humanity doesn't have to perfectly keep the Law anymore. If you try to keep the Law you will only fail because you are not sinless nor are you capable of perfectly keeping the Law your entire life. In order for God to justify you under the Law you have to PERFECTLY keep the Law your entire life (see Romans 3:20, James 2:8-13).

While the apostles and the Early church DID keep the Sabbath (As did Christ, he had to in order to fulfill the Law) they also never said or claimed that you HAD to for salvation. They also, couldn't and didn't do it PERFECTLY so they never would have BEEN saved had they actually been justified by the Law. They taught that Salvation was by faith and not by our works (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 5:1-2, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:28).

So, I could use that as an example. At least there are evidences for Protestant (and Catholic) theology in the Bible if you actually read the Bible as a whole. I don't mean to attack you or anything it's not my intention but I do see your point of "Just because it's a minority doesn't mean that it isn't true."

A majority of the Church didn't believe in, doesn't believe in OSAS but that doesn't mean that it isn't taught in scripture. It's taught throughout the Bible. I've already given my points on OSAS in post #21.
 
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Bob S

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Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies


John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
Jude 24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?
I find that quite amusing due to the fact that you would use "Our Catholic friends" when your Seventh-day Adventist prophet, (Ellen White) has written so much regarding Catholics, none of it in friendly terms.
 
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BobRyan

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Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies


John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?


Jude 24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
=====================

1. A good example of a text that does not say "unto Him who is able to keep you from having free will after you are born again".
2. A good example of a text that does not say "Unto Him who has deleted all the warning texts in scripture for those who are forgiven all since there is no possibility of failing to persevere"
3. In the OP the position is not that there is no way to employ "extreme inference" with some "other texts" ..
4. In the OP the position is that "the details" in "the details" in those texts quoted present "the challenge" for a sola scriptura basis for OSAS. Details that your post also does not address. The OP does not claim that it is impossible to just ignore the texts and "look at something else" instead.

I find that quite amusing due to the fact that you would use "Our Catholic friends"

Indeed our Catholic friends often catch some criticism on this area of the board when it comes to the topic of "sola scriptura testing" of this or that doctrine. Which was the point in that OP... that you also do not address.

Not stating anything here that we all do not see clearly - just pointing to the obvious ... admittedly
 
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BobRyan

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Virtually every other Protestant group because the vast majority of Protestants agree with Luther's findings and theologies that he made in the 1,500's a.k.a sola scriptura, sola fide, and Eternal Security.

Perhaps a "quote" will be useful just then when it comes to Martin Luther and Once Saved Always Saved.

from; Out There: Eternal Security/Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS)

Like “Faith Alone”, “Eternal Security” made its first appearance at the Reformation, being introduced by leaders such as Bucer and Calvin. Interestingly though, it was never taught by Luther:

So then we have this

Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief” – Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22
 
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BobRyan

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, your denomination IS large in number but some of what it teaches is just not in line with what the Bible, the Apostles, and Christ himself taught.

Every denomination includes at least one doctrinal difference with another denomination - and on that it is always the case that denomination-A will say our doctrine on that point is fully in line with the Bible as opposed to an exact opposite on that doctrine held by denomination-B.

No real "news" in someone taking that view. That is the every-day fact of life.


Your denomination claims that we have to keep the Sabbath

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the Catholic Catechism section on the TEN Commandments and almost every other major denomination has a statement of faith that also agrees that all TEN of the TEN commandments are included in the "moral law of God" applicable to all mankind and written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-12.

No real news there either it is an every day fact of life. But if you want to discuss that topic in a forum dedicated to it and a thread dedicated to it .. we have this.
Sunday at 6:51 PM #1


A majority of the Church didn't believe in, doesn't believe in OSAS but that doesn't mean that it isn't taught in scripture.

I agree that just because most of the Christian church does not teach a given doctrine does not make it wrong.

It's taught (OSAS is taught) throughout the Bible.

The claim in the OP is that OSAS does not survive an objective detailed sola scriptura close review and the texts given in the OP are given as an example of proof of it.
 
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BobRyan

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I've already given my points on OSAS in post #21.

Okay, so. I don't see how most if not all of the Protestant theology is not taught throughout the Bible.

I could name many examples but since this thread is about Eternal Security I'll post on that. If it were not true that our salvation were not eternally secure than why would Christ have said numerous times that it was? see (John 6:37-40, John 10:27-30, John 5:24, John 3:16, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7)

Why would Paul say in Romans 10:13 that EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus will be saved? This fits in with Christs statement in John 6:37 that he will not cast out ONE person who comes to him for salvation with a genuinely repentant heart. Not to mention Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:5? Or many of his other statements that said that we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone? (Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:22, Romans 4:1-25, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9, Acts 16:31, & more)

Why would even the apostle John say so in one of his letters? (1 John 5:10-13) and also in (John 1:12)

The apostle Peter? (1 Peter 1:4-5)

Why would the writer of Hebrews say in Hebrews 10:10-14 that those who have been born of God are perfected forever?

Why would both the Prophet Micah and Isaiah say that our sins our completely wiped out by God? Micah 7:18-19, Isaiah 43:25.

The list just goes on and on. There is plenty of evidence throughout the Bible for eternal security and for most of the Protestant theology.


Your OSAS arguments are based on inference not explicit statements that once someone is born again they cannot choose to "fall from grace and be severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 even though scripture says that is what happens in some cases.

For example you say --
"I could name many examples but since this thread is about Eternal Security I'll post on that. If it were not true that our salvation were not eternally secure than why would Christ have said numerous times that it was? see (John 6:37-40, John 10:27-30, John 5:24, John 3:16, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7)" -- where not a single one of those texts say "once someone is born again they cannot choose to "fall from grace and be severed from Christ"

Inference alone cannot solve the problem of the OP list of texts and even your own post does not go to those texts and try a sola scriptura exegetical review to show that the problem for OSAS given in those texts.. is solved in some way.

Not doubt that "not looking at those texts" is a way to temporarily get around the point.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Perhaps a "quote" will be useful just then when it comes to Martin Luther and Once Saved Always Saved.



So then we have this

Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief” – Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22

Idk how accurate this is but apparently, here's a chart explaining the Church's as a whole's beliefs on Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura:

Three-in-ten U.S. Protestants believe in both sola fide and sola scriptura


I am aware of that quote from Luther but here's an article saying what Luther believed about Sola Fide and many of his teachings.

Martin Luther's Explanation of Faith, Faith Alone and Faith That Is Not Alone • EFCA

Luther believed that we were saved by faith alone but the faith that saves, is never alone. Therefore a faith that saves is a Christian willing to do good works, to live a Godly life for God, To completely and totally change their prior ways, To get baptized (Luther never really commented on whether or not infant baptism counts but the Baptists argue that the only valid form of baptism is by full immersion, and there are some Protestant denominations that argue for infant baptism) ...etc. Luther argued that a Christian who is not willing to do these things, than they never really believed or accepted Christ at all. I have to say, I agree.

The fact that so many "Christians" are leaving the faith only shows to me, that they never had saving faith to begin with, never had the Holy Spirit, and Eternal Security doesn't apply to them. Because one of the signs of the Holy Spirit is that a person remains in the faith for life. You have to have the Holy Spirit to have Eternal Security.
 
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jerry kelso

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Idk how accurate this is but apparently, here's a chart explaining the Church's as a whole's beliefs on Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura:

Three-in-ten U.S. Protestants believe in both sola fide and sola scriptura


I am aware of that quote from Luther but here's an article saying what Luther believed about Sola Fide and many of his teachings.

Martin Luther's Explanation of Faith, Faith Alone and Faith That Is Not Alone • EFCA

Luther believed that we were saved by faith alone but the faith that saves, is never alone. Therefore a faith that saves is a Christian willing to do good works, to live a Godly life for God, To completely and totally change their prior ways, To get baptized (Luther never really commented on whether or not infant baptism counts but the Baptists argue that the only valid form of baptism is by full immersion, and there are some Protestant denominations that argue for infant baptism) ...etc. Luther argued that a Christian who is not willing to do these things, than they never really believed or accepted Christ at all. I have to say, I agree.

The fact that so many "Christians" are leaving the faith only shows to me, that they never had saving faith to begin with, never had the Holy Spirit, and Eternal Security doesn't apply to them. Because one of the signs of the Holy Spirit is that a person remains in the faith for life. You have to have the Holy Spirit to have Eternal Security.

neosrarwcc,

1. As I said before in post 32# the question is not whether one believes in eternal security or not.
Both Arminians and Calvinists both believe in Eternal Security.
Armininists believe in ES conditionally as far as having free will and having to cooperate with God’s requirements of works of obedience not works to merit.

2. Full Calvinists of the Reformed theology believe more in line with no free will but God’s sovereign choice.
This is why they pretty much ascribe to if you leave and never come back you were never saved in the first place.

2. This is why Justification by Grace and Justification by works has to be properly understood in their separate context to get a clearer picture on this subject.

3. Faith without works is dead and saved by grace and not works has to be reconciled to not be a contradiction.
And they are reconciled through proper understanding of Justification by works and grace.

4. Free will choice is always with us whether Christian or not a Christian.
We are to be imitators of Christ and the more we choose his ways we grow in relationship and our choices automatically will be what his will is.
At the same time it doesn’t mean free will has left us at all to make a wrong choice even to the point of going apostate. That is highly unlikely with most true Christians but it is a possibility.

3. The T-U-L-I-P believes in God’s complete sovereignty in salvation from beginning to end, so they say.
In truth it is not true in their daily lives for they know they can sin and they believe they are sinners saved by grace.
We were sinners saved by grace is a better way to put it because most of them use we are sinners saved by grace to prove how much they can sin and most of that crowd results in living carnal while being saved. But since they are eternally secure they can lay the blame of sin on the Savior. I’ve actually heard some say this.

4. The truth is Satan is out there to steal, kill, and destroy Christian lives not just their testimony. If he destroys their lives he has destroyed their testimony.
1 John is but one example of people who were never saved at to begin with. But this doesn’t mean that every person who leaves the faith was never saved.
There are plenty of accounts in the Bible of saved people losing their salvation.
Under the Old Testament all were baptized under the cloud and sea and drank of that spiritual drink which was Christ, but those in Korah sinned and died in their sin. In Ezekiel the Lord would not remember their righteousness anymore if the Jew didn’t repent.
Annanias and Sapphira were part of the early church who were in one accord and they lied to the Holy Spirit and were stricken dead.
Jesus gave the parable of the woman and the lost coin but she found it again. That lost coin could be lost more than once and be found more than once.

5. Eternal life is an eternal substance, but that doesn’t mean it is an automatic guarantee eternal possession anymore than a coin that can’t be lost or a person that can’t get lost in the woods etc.
There are professors and possessors and God knows the heart. And he knows which we’re never saved and which ones were saved and left the faith.
There are some on the side of UES as a license to sin and some on the side of CES that just profess and both parties use their free will choice of their own volition.
So it is the faithful who choose freely to follow God to the end that will be accepted into Heaven.
The sinful and unfaithful God cannot save on either side of this issue.
Jerry Kelso
 
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JIMINZ

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Does everyone believe that what Luther did and said about Sola Scriptura makes him the absolute authority from then on, about every point of Christianity.

His thought and beliefs on the subject of Sola Scriptura does not make him an authority on OSAS nor doe it give him understanding on the subject, he still had his Catholic Prejudices against it, having been a Priest.

Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church he wanted it to stop is practice of indulgences, he remained a Catholic at heart, even with his new
Denomination.

Lutheranism, is nothing more than Catholic Lite.
 
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