Why reject OSAS ? Because the Bible does not support it.? or..?

Okay, so. I don't see how most if not all of the Protestant theology is not taught throughout the Bible.

I could name many examples but since this thread is about Eternal Security I'll post on that. If it were not true that our salvation were not eternally secure than why would Christ have said numerous times that it was? see (John 6:37-40, John 10:27-30, John 5:24, John 3:16, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7)

Why would Paul say in Romans 10:13 that EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus will be saved? This fits in with Christs statement in John 6:37 that he will not cast out ONE person who comes to him for salvation with a genuinely repentant heart. Not to mention Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:5? Or many of his other statements that said that we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone? (Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:22, Romans 4:1-25, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9, Acts 16:31, & more)

Why would even the apostle John say so in one of his letters? (1 John 5:10-13) and also in (John 1:12)

The apostle Peter? (1 Peter 1:4-5)

Why would the writer of Hebrews say in Hebrews 10:10-14 that those who have been born of God are perfected forever?

Why would both the Prophet Micah and Isaiah say that our sins our completely wiped out by God? Micah 7:18-19, Isaiah 43:25.

The list just goes on and on. There is plenty of evidence throughout the Bible for eternal security and for most of the Protestant theology.

BobRyan said:

Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies

John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?

Click to expand...

= salvation by works.

BobRyan said:

In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS

Click to expand...

There are people who believe you can not lose your salvation, and they are not Calvinists. What I think might be their explanation is you make your free will choice to get saved, and then you can not lose your salvation.

So, I do not believe that any special group is the only one that holds to "once saved, always saved" or the claim that you can lose your salvation. So, I do not bring Calvinism into this, or any other group. I go by what I find in the Bible and how I find God has me understanding His word > as well as I can, I do.

There might be a certain way that Calvinists officially believe in "once saved, always saved". But others have other ways of believing you can't lose your salvation.

There are ones who do not even get saved; but they do some copy-cat thing, and assume they now are saved and can not lose it.

Others might suppose that because they were baptized as babies, that they can not lose their salvation, but they never have trusted in Jesus like Paul means in Ephesians 1:12.

There are others who understand they make their own free will choice to trust in Jesus, then they are guaranteed.

And there are variations of emphasis.

There are people who say they made their free will choice, but then feel they will keep on sinning as long as they live, and they might commit murder just before they die but they will be saved. Well, how can you live like this, if you have denied yourself and taken up your cross and begun to follow Jesus? > Luke 9:23. And God's grace is almighty to correct and mature us in how our Father has us loving.

Others make a free will choice, but understand God will change them so they are less and less able to sin and they will be ready for Jesus and this is sure to happen, they can not lose this. If you are maturing in Jesus, you do better and better in His love; but this means, I would offer, leaving your own human free will behind, and living in how God succeeds in us > Philippians 2:13.

So, it can be too easy to just say Calvinists hold to whatever. This can be lazy lolololololololol

I have been told, by the way, that official Roman Catholicism teaches free will and predestination and you can lose your salvation.

So, what works for me is if you trust in Jesus; there is no such thing as you truly trusting in Him, then dumping Him for some do-it-yourself thing in your own human-capability free will!! If you get with Jesus, you should be busy with then sharing with Him and getting real correction. You do not perhaps have much time for wondering if and debating about if you can lose your salvation. Because it is like if you are a little child sitting on Daddy's lap. While you are so affectionately sharing with and learning from Daddy, how much are you thinking about if and how you could lose your relationship with your Dad? Why would this even get your attention???

Yet, there are ones very busy with if you can lose your salvation. Why?

Some people are not living right; so yes they might want some false assurance that they will get away with it; they see how they are failing; but instead of getting with God in His grace almighty to succeed in them, they listen to comfort-food ideas saying they will go to Heaven. They might not have gotten started with the Jesus who gives us real correction and "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:29). So, they could be doomed to struggling with their sin and emotional torments, until and if they get with Jesus and how His almighty peace takes care of us in our "hearts" > Colossians 3:15.

And there are others who want to judge people; they want to have the only right doctrine so they can busy themselves with talking down on others. Ones of these can talk "once save, always saved", or they can be self-righteous you-can-lose-it people. So - - either way > they, too, are not first busy with submitting to our Father and how He gives us real correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > so we become more and more maturely submissive to how He rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, yes there are ones who say you can lose your salvation, but they themselves have not gotten started with the Jesus who personally takes care of us in His own peace.

BobRyan said:

Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies

John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?

Click to expand...

I used to believe in OSAS and no longer do, but saying that, I believe the scriptural basis of OSAS is not actually that bad, and a lot of the fighting about it here and elsewhere is unwarranted. OSAS is actually quite scripturally solid. I've rejected it because I don't think it quite passes muster, but I don't think that a view against it as as rock-solid as many non-OSAS believers seem to think it is. We can rather spend our time arguing about more interesting things, like Open Theism

com7fy8 said:

Jesus has free will and He is unable to sin, because of His nature.

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If Jesus is unable to sin because of His Nature, then He could not be tempted like as we are yet without sin because, WE can and do sin.

Heb. 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

How did Jesus feel our infirmities if He is not like we are, not having the Human Nature which can be tempted, "but was in all points tempted like as we are,"

The Scriptural Basis For O.s.a.s. | Christian Forums

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

Osas: God Saves Us And He Keeps Us. | Christian Forums

Thanks for making a new thread. Wow..when you go to some of those others.. they can get SO far off topic.. best to start new..

You use a word "reject". There is no verse that specifically says it. So what we get are verses being tossed back and forth as to "what it really means, really is saying"

"in whom you are sealed". Eph 11 do you know how much meat in in that chapter alone? This is what were talking about "meat" of the word. You know..when I was a child I did childish things.. but I put that away. What once I did question I don't any more. Hes not going to cast me out because of some sin. Sin can't enter heaven... I can never walk in heaven right now in this flesh. That was not made new..this flesh is not the new man which after God is created in righteousness and try holiness. Because that which is born of God does not sin". What are you? Just flesh and made some choice? Hard to talk meat when some only stay with milk.

Some can't see understand the new man and.. then jump to understanding this gift of salvation? For me when I say meat its knowing I am secure in Christ..my faith. Its knowing He the Father is faithful to what Christ already did for the world. Lol I just can't see the Father saying "as easily as I took you out of chains pardoned you. I can put you back in chains". One problem is.. .He never put us in chains. What SIN did He set the world free from? GONE NO MORE. Can't be put back on.. can't be found..its no more. What SIN? Or is all you see is YOUR daily moment by moment sins as the sin.

Christ left heaven became man. Did for the worlds sin. Is that really all it was? We do not know what it cost this God to die for the world. He didn't just come.. die rise then go back as if .. all good! It really cost God something. Take Israel.. God tells it like.. Israel (she) men standing in line to be with her and He waits in line and buys her... takes her back. He can't lie. He HAS to be faithful to what He already said.

I praise God I don't have any say ..I don't get to know who He writes in His books.. I am in the lambs book. Is that the same book of life ? Did not David say "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." So who's "they"? They WERE written in with the righteous.. no? I always WONDERED if that is not about this life here. Anyway I don't worry about OSAS or I can lose my salvation. Its this moment now.. repent move on.

BobRyan said:

Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies

John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?

Click to expand...

bobryan,

1. God gave creative beings the power of free will choice, including Lucifer who was sinless till the day iniquity as found in him Ezekiel 28:15.
Adam and Eve had the power of free will choice to either choose to eat of the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Satan having no tempter and Adam and Eve having a tempter shows that God gives this power to making a freewill choice.
This is the most sure way of seeing who will really live and love God in a complete sense as a true possessor or false professor for their time on earth.

2. The argument with Calvinists and non calvinists is not Eternal Security at all, but whether it is conditional or unconditional.
Calvinists belief is on complete sovereignty of God concerning salvation from beginning to end no matter what you do including backsliding and not living for God. This is the most extreme of those that habitually sin and still claim of being saved.
The most extreme of all are those who believe not only OSAS but, also, Once a Christian you cannot sin. This is based on 1 John 3:8-9. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin and because his seed remains in him.

3. The truth is that one can be eternally secure but it has to be based on God’s requirements of our cooperating by trusting and obeying him.
Works of obedience would be confessing and believing to receive salvation Romans 10:9-10.
This is not works to merit for we are not saved by works Romans 4:1-7.

4. One may think this is double talk or making up things, but this is not the case.
For example, Romans 4:2 says; For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.
Many believe because salvation is Justification by Grace they believe there is no Justification by works in salvation because it sounds like a contradiction.
This is where correct context is very important to understand.
James 2:20-26 is the context for Justification of Works I the act of salvation.
Faith without works is dead. Abraham was Justified by works when he offered up Isaac.
He cooperated in obedience by offering Isaac up; but believing is when he was imputed unto him for righteousness.
This shows how one is justified by works and not faith only.
The work of Grace at Calvary was only of God.
The act of free will choice to trust and obey and believe God shows whether one is serious or not.
God sees the heart and only he can put his stamp of approval on a person and say whether or not one is saved.
So the work of Grace at Calvary and the stamp of approval claiming one to be saved is the work of God only.
One can have a body but cannot live without a spirit.
So if one doesn’t cooperate with works of obedience then there is no true faith.
God desires we freely choose him of our own volition before he accepts us as his child.

5. As far as many Catholics believe in works bringinging forth salvation such as baptismal regeneration. But there are many that believe in BR and live like the Devil.
False professors believe they can do works and it will lead to the result of being saved and that is not true because they are really relying on works without true believing faith.

6. Romans 8:28-31 is not speaking of individual conformity to God but the plan of God who obey him.
For those who accept Christ and obey him accordingly to his plan and purpose of the Christian life he has foreordained, predestined and predetermined.
This is why Calvin’s belief of God choosing some and those whom he wants and damns others and who he wants is ludicrous for God is not respect of persons. James 2:9 says, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
God is holy and righteous so he cannot pick and choose who he wants to save or damn according to his own laws.
Calvin didn’t believe in missionary work because the elect would come to God and those who reject would not elect.

7. Foreknowledge is another reason some believe in God’s right to no free will and or in God having the right to pick and choose who he wants to save or damn.

8. This is the major thinkings on this subjects. Jerry Kelso

BobRyan said:

Recon means to "consider it as" not "you are physically dead" which is why in Romans 6 Paul "argues for" obedience rather than "assuming it".

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but when you are Defining a Word found in the Bible, you have to Define it in the Language in which it was used originally and not the one which it was translated in to.

Therefore.

Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon G-3049 ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Which is in reference to.

Rom. 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
log-id'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, that is, estimate (literally or figuratively): - conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

When you say we are not physically dead you are 100% correct but we are dead to the Flesh.

BobRyan said:

Jesus "has" free will and "IS" unable to sin because of his nature -- that does not speak about Jesus on Earth - but rather Jesus today - as God in heaven our high priest.

Sin "works" because we do not see the end from the beginning. IT is the "Hot stove" that looks to you like a park bench or ice cream. but God sees the "hot stove" clearly and is not fooled at all ... so not possible for Him to be tempted in His God state.

Satan does not tempt Eve with this "here bite this fruit and you will die after a few years.. your children will all die the animals will turn violent and many souls will go to hell. God the Son will have to choose to either die for your sins or not..." ... sin would never work under such conditions.

Click to expand...

You are soooooo wrong on so many different levels, I don't know where to begin to explain.

BobRyan said:

Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

So even though the Gospel is that of being "Saved by grace through faith" it is a gospel where the saints still have free will to choose. And while it is true that one is not lost each time they sin 1 John 2:1 yet the Bible texts about someone losing salvation are very clear.

IS that idea of the Bible not supporting OSAS something you also believe? Is that sufficient reason to reject OSAS?

Matthew 18 -- the chapter ends with "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ. Notice in that chapter "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then what happens? Notice how Christ "applies" the lesson "SO SHALL My Father do to each of you IF..."

Ezek 18 - Forgiveness revoked clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 11 - salvation revoked "you stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's goodness IF you continue.. otherwise you will be cut off"

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" Indeed disqualified from it in that case

Matt 13 - seed on ground that "comes to LIFE" and springs up .. but then dies

John 15 "branches IN ME" that are "cut off" and tossed into the fire

Gal 5 "severed from Christ... fallen from grace".. you can't be severed from something you never were joined to.

(In my opinion OSAS is not at all reasonable unless one is first inclined to accept at least some key features of Calvinism. I don't understand how any non-Calvinist gets to the point of believing in OSAS, and since I too am not one who holds to 4 or 5 point Calvinism.. I don't have a basis for OSAS either)
=====================

Our Catholic friends sometimes get criticism that they do not follow "sola scriptura testing" but here is a case were a popular non-Catholic teaching does not appear to pass the "Sola Scriptura" test.

I find that interesting. How about you?

Click to expand...

If one continues living a sinful life without asking for forgiveness and repents (turns away from sin) they won't be saved ... the Lords word is clear on that.

We were created with free will and that fact never changes while we are alive on earth.

Free will - the ability to act at one's own discretion

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Hebrews 10:26

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Apart from Calvin, how many of the Reformers / churches or movements which sprang from the Reformers, actually embraced osas?

Not Luther. Not the Anglicans. Not the Anabaptists / Mennonites.

I think most Baptists are osas, but perhaps not all. It's good to look at Scripture, but sometimes looking at history helps, too.

Because none of our theologies developed in a vacuum. And, as others have mentioned, we're all reading, essentially, at least 90% of the same Scriptures. And yet the conclusions we come to are all vastly different.

BobRyan said:

Most Christians who reject OSAS will say they reject it because the Bible does not support it.

Click to expand...

I reject it because it is not a part of Historic Christianity

charsan said:

I reject it because it is not a part of Historic Christianity

Click to expand...

I think what helps, at least helps me, is comparing and contrasting what the Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Catholic Church say on various topics. Granted, these Churches have their differences. Some considerable ones.

And yet, all affirm the Real Presence. All ask the Saints for their prayers and intercession. All venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary with hymns, prayers, liturgies, and holy days. All affirm that our salvation is a journey of God's grace saving us as we *work out* our salvation with more than just faith. All affirm that we can loose our salvation. All have Bibles with at least 73 books. All baptize infants and hold that Baptism is salvific.

So, that's a lot in common.

We don't agree on Christology, ecclesiology, Church history, or every single Creed, but we have all that above stuff in common. That's pretty neat, and compelling.

Gracia Singh said:

Because none of our theologies developed in a vacuum. And, as others have mentioned, we're all reading, essentially, at least 90% of the same Scriptures. And yet the conclusions we come to are all vastly different.

Click to expand...

The problem is, these different Theology's Teach their Doctrine to their Parishioners, thus they have learned what the Denomination believes, therefore when these people read the Scriptures (Bible), they inherently read everything through the lens of their particular Theology, and not with a completely open mind, therefore an Anglican, and a Catholic will not read the same verses with the same understanding, they have been taught what the verses mean and they cannot see any other meaning (Understanding) otherwise the new meaning will begin the questioning of all other taught Beliefs, Doctrine, Theology

Remember you cannot put a new piece of cloth on an old torn garment, otherwise the tear becomes worse and the garment is destroyed.

Look at Denominations the same way, you cannot introduce new Theology into the Old Established Beliefs.... Its called Prejudice, in the belief, they already possess all of the truth to be found in the Bible

A belief that is not held by any given Denomination is viewed and has been Pre Judged as false.