we are ALL PREDESTINED
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renniks
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Because you read them with determinism lenses on. " You can't please me unless I irresistibly cause you to please me by forcing you to have faith" ok then, nothing matters, because either you vill obey because I vill force you to obey, or you vill not because I force you not to. Eat drink and be merry because you have no say in anything, despite a thousand verses saying otherwise.
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No it is Scripture- Satan is lim ited in HIs capacity for evil according to bounds set by God!
And I did not say that everything that has happened is gods sovereing will either. He allows things in what is called His permissive will and He will will it out according to His sovereign will.
Sorry but man nor devil can thwart the will of God no matter who tells you.
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Well human logic doesn't always = biblical truth.
The Word is absolutely clear on this. Unsaved man has no ability or capacity to accept Christ. He already is in rejection by nature. Human nature is opposed to the things of God. It doesn't even want god! How can a person choose Christ with everything ion them rejecting Christ?
The elect have been the elect from before the foundation of the world! They are given the ability to accept Christ- IOW god intervenes in their life to get them to receive Christ! No one in and of themselves thinks trusting in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved is desirable in the least!
The Bible is clear all unsaved are slaves to sin and obey their master. when a person is born from above their free will is restored to them, for it is only the saved who can truly accept or reject or obey or disobey God.
People can make choices like who to marry, what clothes to wear, car to buy etc.etc.etc. But when it come to doing righteousness from divine perspective- God say even unsaved mans righteousness is filthy rags!
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1. The person with dropsy was in the house of the pharisee. Jesus was under continual observation by the pharisees according to Jewish rules.
So you are saying there were great multitudes in the pharisees house? I do not think so.
And does not always connect the new thought with the prior thought. That is known as the Sharps Granville Rule and it does not apply here with two thoughts. This is simply saying that great multitudes (Now is a better translation). so within this chapter (which is a man made seperation, the gospels were written without chapter breaks or verse numbers) vse. 25 is starting a new narrative. That is the correct grammatical way of parsing this.
My heart is truly saddened over your family situation. I was blessed to pray with my mom and dad and brother to recieve Christ before they all passed away! It is so tragic! I cannot even imagination the ache in your heart over all this. I will pray for you and yoru borther, especially He finds Christ!
Well you are free to believe that Jesus is calling you to loather your husband and children and the rest of your family if you wish to be His disciple, but I have learned far better from the Savior who calls us to love our family!
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renniks
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Except that God is the one who tells me different. So excuse me if I listen to him instead of you. Was it God's will for Lucifer to become evil? Chapter and verse please. Was it God's will for Adam and Eve to eat the apple? Where is that scripture?
God constantly speaks of himself as a lover who has been rejected. And yet you want to pretend that rejection is exactly what he wanted. Bizarre!
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You either really don't get it; or you're purposefully being deceptive!
(Which is it?)
Let's start from the beginning of Luke 14:
And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Strong's #1519 - preposition "to" or "into". Jesus has come to this pharisee's house. He's not inside it. We know this is the case based on the following verses. Who do you suppose "they" are, who are watching Jesus?
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
Where'd the guy with dropsy come from? I'm sure he wasn't a guest in the pharisee's house. This is obviously evidence that Jesus is not in the pharisee's house either!
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
Apparently the man with dropsy was not one of the Pharisee's guests now was he?
The most likely scenario was that Jesus was preaching; note it was the sabbath and this pharisee at some point comes out of his own house and comes to Jesus and says: "Come to my house for a meal."
The pharisee's dinner party had probably already started. Remember verse 1; "that they watched him". Let's invite this guy to our party so we can ensnare him. So Jesus follows this pharisee toward his house.
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
Now apparently there were more than just "those who were bidden" (to the pharisee's house) standing in Jesus's presence. Is Jesus standing in the street, the yard, the doorway maybe? The text never states Jesus actually went into the house; just that He was bidden to come. Yet, Jesus is standing there watching their behavior and then gives them this next parable.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honorable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted.
12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou make a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee.
Note again, more than just the people invited to the pharisee's house are present. The "poor", "lame", "maimed" and "blind" are still "present" (even if more remotely so)! Have you caught that?
It would not make a whole lot of contextual sense for Jesus to give this parable, if these people He uses in the parable were not in the immediate vicinity of the house, where all these pharisees could see them! Jesus just healed someone with dropsy 5 minutes earlier! This statement would have had maximum impact if stated that the people who were not invited would hear it also!
13 But when thou make a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Now pay attention to verse 15 because this is where it gets interesting!
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with, heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
Luke 14:15 Interlinear: And one of those reclining with him, having heard these things, said to him, 'Happy is he who shall eat bread in the reign of God;'
Greek word order:
Having heard then, one of those reclining with said unto him; Blessed is he that shall eat in the kingdom of God.
The word "then" in this passage is Strong's #1161. This is the form of a "connector conjunction". It connects what's said next, to what happened earlier. This form of connector conjunction is in this passage in two places. This is place #1.
Now, this could have two different contextual interpretations. It's not particularly clear from the Greek itself, who the person speaking is speaking to. He could be speaking to Jesus, but could also be speaking to the pharisee who invited him. We know from the context that he'd been in the house with the pharisee; because "one of those reclining with said to him". (The "him" connected to "reclining with" is not in the original Greek. It's inserted with the intent to make the translation more readable in English; so therefor who "reclined with" is not clear from the order of the Greek words themselves.
The person who makes this statement "Blessed is he that shall eat in the kingdom of God." may have been making it to the pharisee in response to what Jesus had just said, or he may have been making it to Jesus as a way of showing how smart he is. The context of the verse is not real clear on that and really translation wise; it does't matter.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
Here is another place this Strong's #1161 is used; yet it is not the same form as the previous verse. And this is because it leads the subject of the sentence. It has a word in front of it that is not translated which is "the". "The but, said he (Jesus) unto him (the person who said "Blessed is he that shall eat in the kingdom of God".
Both of these connectors; but especially the one in verse 15 shows you that what is said next is strung to what has just previously happened.
Jesus goes on to give them this next parable about the man who sends his servant out at supper time to collect people to the dinner.
Note, Jesus just gave a parable to the pharisee who invited Him to eat about inviting the lame, blind, maimed etc. So in this, Jesus is setting up a precedence. "Are you going to invite these people too?"
And given this context and what these parables were teaching; what message do you think it would have sent to the masses outside if Jesus went and joined this party? That would have contradicted what He was just teaching!
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
"Were going with then him, crowds great..... " There's your connecting conjunction again! Note "then" is not actually the lead word in the sentence. And the fact that it isn't the lead word, demonstrates the strength of its connecting operation between this parable and the next thing stated (which is about hating family and life, as being the price of discipleship).
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
So, this is why I say that at this point you are being dishonest and the dishonesty is likely intentional; seeing how what you assert makes no contextual or theological sense. You seem to me to be intelligent enough to recognize this; so therefore I've come to the conclusion that you're simply being dishonest.
Now if that isn't a condescending statement - I don't know what is?
The context of that passage is that one is willing to forsake all (family and own life) if that is what it comes to. If you can't see that in this passage (and how that jives with the rest of Scripture); you are blinded by your own adherence to a cultural interpretation.
It's just another form of "Judiazation".
And in that clinging to a cultural interpretation (that makes no contextual or theological sense); you now come off as self righteous and condescending! (Which is too bad.) But I've learned over the years too, that just because someone acquiesces to the doctrine of election as taught in the Scripture; doesn't mean they really know Christ either.
Speaking of pompous! That statement is just plain uncalled for!
But if you must know this too: my husband is also dead. We had been living apart for 6 years, after he threw myself and his 8 year old developmentally disabled son out of the apartment, about a year after a catastrophic car accident that left me permanently mobility impaired. The accident was in 2010.
He filed for divorce in February of 2017, so he could marry girlfriend number two and on March 3, she broke up with him and he committed suicide that night! When he didn't show up for work 2 days in a row (which was very unusual - he always went to work) his employer called the police. They found his body in his apartment Sunday afternoon!
I found the suicide note a week and a half later. I turned it into the police. It was addressed to the girlfriend. She and his brother told the county investigator that I'd murdered him!
So, do you really want to talk about who's been loathed by whom?
Due to God's interesting way of working all things to the purpose of His will; the divorce paperwork never even got to the judge. So as soon as I waked into the county clerks office with the death certificate; that stopped the divorce proceedings and I was still legally the next of kin. Even if we had been legally divorced; because he died without a will, his son would have been the legal next of kin. Because the kid was only 15 years old at the time; they still had to deal with me. I'm his legal guardian and had been his sole custodial guardian for the past 6 years.
So after 6 years of no child support and his greedy brother (the one with the 6 figure income mind you) who attempted to intimidate me to signing over the entire estate to him! The greedy girlfriend and the shifty landlord, who also wanted a part of the estate. (I found a list of items the girlfriend left in the apartment that she wanted! And the list was obviously written post mortem.)
Me and my son were left with only three weeks to clean out the apartment. I hired some moving men though and we got it done! We removed everything; except for the girlfriend's junk that his sorry soul had collected and left in a pile on the living room floor. Some of it was in the back of his car. The girlfriend got her ... poo back and shifty brother got a plant, a flag that had belonged to their uncle, a ring that had belonged to their uncle and his brother's high school yearbooks.
He also got the grandparent's antique silverware that he'd stolen out of the apartment. I called the police over that one. Which the police and the lawyer made it very clear to the landlord, that the only people allowed in that apartment were myself and his son! If anything else turned up missing; they were holding the landlord responsible. The police could see a mile away, these people were shifty!
All the furniture (with the exception of one cedar chest, a chair, a lamp and a couple of paintings) and household items got donated to Habitat for Humanity. So, the furniture the brother wanted, he had to go purchase from Habitat! (LOL - Poetic justice for being a butt hole!) The car I gave to a friend's son. My son has epilepsy, he'll never be able to drive. And the single most valuable thing left in the apartment (the coin collection) I gave to my son. He also got the baseball card collection.
So again - do YOU really want to talk about who's been loathed by whom?
Seems to me for someone who's allegedly "learned far better from (the) Savior" you make an awful lot of stupid and unfounded accusations!
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Do you want the explanation of those verses or not?
If not; believe what you want.
Not my circus.
Not my monkeys.
Not my problem!
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Why? Yes I know a strange question. I would and do too for my dad who died a great many years ago but you see I'm not a Calvinist. If Calvinists were to be consistent why would you be hoping for something different than what God decided beforehand? It seems like a hidden hope you're trying to move God off of how you envision him to be sovereign. By the way you were right to pray for your parents. But you need to change your understanding of what God's sovereignty means. It's not as hard a line thing as you think.
And again why were you praying? There must be something in you which would lean to the possibility that just maybe your prayer might move God to do which to Calvinists would be the unthinkable....that men would actually play a part in moving God to save one. And yet you believe it was already decided before the world began.
No it wasn't and isn't. It is never a part of God's plan for people not to make heaven their home. It's men that reject the plan of God. If you want to say that it was God's plan to allow men to reject him or receive him than fine, but I'm sorry you're wrong to say the other.
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This may surprise you - LOL - but I'm not omniscient! I don't have the master list of who the elect are.
I didn't get to the hospital before dad died. My husband refused to watch his own child; so I had to find someone else to. In the mean time dad died. My sister kept calling saying dad was asking for me; but I couldn't come because I was not going to take my 4 year old into the ICU. Nor could I take my 4 year old into the ICU! So of what ever questions, hopes or fears dad may have had about his standing with God; it was left solely between him and God. What happened in those 36 hours; I have no idea!
Do I hope he left this world in peace? Yes I do! Why you would think that is inconsistent with the doctrines of grace; I have no idea? God is still sovereign. Maybe it was in His plan to redeem dad at the very end? I don't know? I hope so. Dad was kind of like Lot living in Sodom and Gomorra. Though he was surrounded with all manner of wickedness and he certainly suffered from depression; he still held to a certain level of morality.
And again; I don't have the master list of who the elect are!
How does that jive with omnipotence? God is either unwilling or unable. He can't be both!
Yet.... why is it not fine for God to allow men to reject Him; yet initiate life in those who end up becoming redeemed, simply on the knowledge that all men would do is reject Him?
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That's not the point and I think you know this. The point is if Calvinists truly believe God has already decided before the foundations of the earth who he was going to save than to pray for someone to be saved would come off as being pretty presumptuous.
And I hope along with you that your loved one was saved. I commend you for doing so. It seems to me though for a Calvinist to be consistent they shouldn't have hope or non-hope either way.
And you understand I don't accept what YOU call the doctrines of grace as being the ACTUAL doctrines of grace. And Calvinists can't claim to own the terms and define them as they please. But YOUR doctrines of grace and how you define them has it that God already decided before you were born who he was going to save and not. And yet you prayed that God would save certain ones.
Sorry but on the surface you give support for Calvinistic thinking but deep down in your heart when it comes to how your consciousness really works you're really living out your life like a non-Calvinistic, which is good by the way. You're envisioning God might just not have made a locked in decision as to who he was going to save and who he wasn't. That he watches the prayer life of those who are saved and moves also on that. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't have prayed.
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I said : It is never a part of God's plan for people not to make heaven their home.
But you see this is just it. You hold that God MUST exercise his omnipotence in every situation and at every time or he's denied himself? I'd suggest you need to consider he'd deny his true character of LOVE if he did things merely because he could. Love relationships don't work on the basis of being forced. A man may have the physical ability to force a woman to marry him but would he have stayed in the realm of LOVE? Most certainly not. God doesn't leave that realm therefore he didn't always exercise just what his ability is.
Because God allows all spirit beings LIBERTY and FREEDOM to make their choice. As painful as it is for God to see men choose wrongly LOVE must allow this to be the case.
But you see this is just it. You hold that God MUST exercise his omnipotence in every situation and at every time or he's denied himself? I'd suggest you need to consider he'd deny his true character of LOVE if he did things merely because he could. Love relationships don't work on the basis of being forced. A man may have the physical ability to force a woman to marry him but would he have stayed in the realm of LOVE? Most certainly not. God doesn't leave that realm therefore he didn't always exercise just what his ability is.
Because God allows all spirit beings LIBERTY and FREEDOM to make their choice. As painful as it is for God to see men choose wrongly LOVE must allow this to be the case.
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That is EXACTLY the point! And you know it! You just won't admit it!
Scripture says that if you pray in God's will; He will act to get it accomplished, because that's what He wants anyways. Yet if any given human being doesn't know what His will is; one makes a petition to God and then leaves it at "not my will but Your's be done".
Prayer doesn't change God; prayer (is suppose to) change us! We are suppose to learn to trust, that what ever God does, has a purpose for our greater good because God is holy. We're suppose to learn both not to fear and how to deal with fear when it does arise. Prayer isn't about getting what you want. Prayer is about understanding, executing and being at peace with God's will.
Some times God uses prior information, intuition, training and common sense to tell you exactly what He wants you to do in the moment.
I watch a lot of "real crime" and forensic shows. And in one of these cases I'd seen; a college campus rapist was using a particular tactic to distract victims before he attacked them. He'd run up to them saying: "Are you OK? Are you OK. I thought you were in trouble."
Well one night I had my son in a bike trailer on a popular bicycle path, it was dark out and we were headed back to the car. I'd stopped at the port-a-john and before I got back on the bike I checked on my son to see if he was still asleep.
Then all the sudden this guy is running toward me: "Are you OK? Are you OK? I thought you were in trouble." And the voice in my head immediately said "Get the hell out of here - NOW!" I jumped on that bike and started peddling as fast as I could in the same direction he was coming. I was headed toward this guy and I yelled at him in a loud, serious, and angry voice: "I'M FINE! WHY WOULDN'T I BE?" He suddenly stopped; seemed dumbfounded and then he said: "But, don't you trust me?" and I yelled in the same angry tone "WHY SHOULD I?" as I went past him, probably doing at least 25 mph at that point. And I just kept going like a bat out of hell. I was watching in my rearview mirror to make sure he wasn't chasing me. He just stood there like he couldn't believe it.
Now what this guy's real intention was; I don't know (And I don't care!); but I sure as hell wasn't going to stick around to find out!
God is not the author of sin and I knew it would not be His will to let this guy attack me and certainly not if I could avoid it! Be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Military training has been useful. Engage brain and don't panic! God used my experience and knowledge to save both our lives that night!
It's not about hope for a particular outcome; it's about trust that an outcome that may be unavoidable will still be used to God's glory.
My 17 year old is very sick right now. His epilepsy is not very well under control, we have no answers to what kind of epilepsy it actually is and we can't just throw more meds at it without killing the kid; because the medication is effecting his liver.
This has one of two possible outcomes; we either find an answer or we don't and if we don't the consequence can be pretty dire. He will continue to loose ability to function and could die of complications to the epilepsy.
Yet if we find out what form of epilepsy it is; we're not guaranteed that treatment options are going to be successful. So, we are left to manage the illness as best as possible and do what we can to improve his quality of life and prepare for the inevitable, because in the end, we all die anyways.
So what is this kid's goal in prayer? That he learn to trust in faith (not fatalism) what ever the outcome ends up being! We all have our crosses to bear and this is his.
He verbally expresses belief and he already has a notable amount of trust in God. He has displayed that on many occasions in the past when he's gone into the ER for symptoms of severe headache and "mom I can't see strait".
The first time this happened; the ER doctor ordered a CT scan of his head. He has a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his brain. She said she was ordering the CT scan to see if the angioma was bleeding. She left the room and he said to me: "Mom am I going to die?" I told him: "I don't know. Only God knows the number of the days of our lives." Then I explained to him that if his angioma is bleeding, they would perform emergency surgery to stop the bleeding and drain the blood to take the pressure off his brain. His next words were: "I think I'm going to pray now." I said: "I think that's a good idea. I'm going to pray too." We prayed silently and then I prayed out loud. Next time the doctor came back into the room. He looked right at her and said "I'm ready!"
So what did prayer do? It didn't change the kid's situation. It gave him the courage to deal with it. If he was going to die that night? He was prepared to face that! Because he knew that if this meant his number was up; the struggle would be over and that's the hope he has. In life or death; God holds our mortal existence and learning to be secure in that, is the reason why we pray!
If you think prayer is about manipulating God to get what you want; you don't understand it's purpose!
After the CT results came back, the ER doctor said the angioma was not bleeding and it was most likely a complex migraine. Call his neurologist in the morning. He was 14 when that happened!
If you don't accept what the Scripture says; that's not my problem.
Scripture is pretty clear that those who are predestine to election are predestine from the foundations of the world. If you can't accept that; again, not my problem!
Again, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done." I don't know who the elect are any more than you do. If this person is elect; I'm confident God will redeem them. If they are not; He will give me the peace to accept that.
Again too, if you don't really understand what prayer does; God is nothing more to you than Santa Clause.
You assume this, to make yourself feel better, because you are in rebellion against what the Scriptures really say and you don't understand the real purpose of prayer.
I'm confident He will save the elect; because He locked Himself into that and He has the omnipotence to carry it out!
Again, God aint Santa Clause; sitting up in heaven waiting for you to recognize some "benny" to His existence. He does not need you. He DOES NOT NEED any of us!
Again, you apparently don't understand the reason for prayer.
Yes, that is the God of the Scripture. You got one thing right!
Because.... in your eyes, in order for God to be "loving" He has to do what you would think is loving. I'm fine with God defining His own terms. After all He is God and He has the right to decide what He wants to do!
Love raises the dead. Dead men don't have a will. They can't respond in that regard. Again, would you hold a doctor at fault for "forcing" a life saving treatment on an unconscious patient?
You have a totally man centered understanding of love.
And the only choice they make in their "liberty" and "freedom" is to sin. How would you suggest God redeem a race who is unwilling?
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See post #496 - Apparently you don't understand the purpose of prayer either.
Do you have any idea how "long" eternity is? The thought that an Entity that existed "alone" outside of time, feelings could be hurt by you rejecting Him is ridiculous!
The 3 persons of the Trinity were perfectly content in all eternity without any of us. God didn't create this universe because He was lonely. He created it simply because He wanted to!
What was Jesus in agony over. Was He in agony because people rejected Him or was He in agony because He been severed from the rest of the Godhead? "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" That has nothing to do relationally with any of us! That was solely between Jesus, the Father and the Spirit
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You still are clueless.
Lucifer could not have rebelled unless God allowed it!
If you think Lucifer rebelled against anything God could do- then you are saying Lucifer has a will as strong as Gods'!
And no your sin of presumption against what I think is just patently false! God knew Israel would reject HIm before He even created the universe!
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In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?
“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 NASB
According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of election a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.
“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
Romans 10:21 NASB
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Well let us look at the verses
Luke 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
Verse 1--into -why to eat (unless of course you think they had some shrimp on the barbie!
verse 7-- people choosing the best places! In the house!
Why do you wish to pursue this ?? To defend a false hypothesis?
The thjey who are watching Jesus would be members of the pharisee class. The pharisees had a methodology to investigate anyone who created a religious movement. They did the same with John and his disciples and they were doing the same with Jesus and His followers. They were investigating Jesus to see if He was real or not!
Looked up vse 25 on bible hub with over 30 English translations- no "then" in verse 25!
From Greek word studies:
4. it connects whole narratives and expositions, and thus forms a transition to new matters: Matthew 4:23; Matthew 8:14, 23, 28; Matthew 9:1, 9, 27, 35; Matthew 10:1; Mark 5:1, 21; Mark 6:1, 6; Luke 8:26; John 1:19 (cf. John 1:15); 1 John 1:4, etc.; especially in the very common καί ἐγένετο, Matthew 7:28; Luke 7:11; Luke 8:1, etc. (see γίνομαι, 2 b.).
It shows some examples of how a new narrative starts with "kai".
YOu are just qwrong here grammatically and geographically. You are saying that Jesus dined outside with teh multitudes and Pharisees. The pharisees would never dine with the common folk!
Once again if you wish to believe God is commanding you to hate hate your family
Hate = miseo (μισέω)
- to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
- to be hated, detested
It is so much easier and makes sense biblically to simply recognize this is a Jewish idiom which simply means when a choice is required- family is not chosen over Jesus!
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