Christianity in a multiverse

awitch

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Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

I wonder if the different iterations of Jesus would meet each other like in the Turtles Forever movie.
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fwGod

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For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse.
Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?
The primary condition is "imagine". So I'm willing to entertain it as far as movies and tv shows go. I'm not willing to accept it as reality.
Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
It still would not happen. A multiverse in no way dictates that Jesus will choose to submit to the devil. He is the same. We have a tendency to sin. He does not.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
The alternate universe theory doesn't even include christians. It's all a theory built by atheists. So why should christians be included into it with this thread?
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
No. God doesn't change. Obviously the whole multiverse theory is atheist. It doesn't include God.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.
The thought experiment tries to make God as changeable as the multiverses theory is.
Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).
Yes, I've given my thoughts which are different than what you've given.
 
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Halbhh

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Obviously the whole multiverse theory is atheist. It do
You're probably referring to the idea in the OP. The idea in the OP is not actually what you'd usually read about if you read a typical article about the speculative theories about 'multiverse' -- instead that idea in the OP is actually an certain idea called the "Many Worlds Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics, and is not widely subscribed to among physicists. It's a peculiar type of multiverse theory in effect that is a very different class of thing, sorta like how a car is not like a herd of horses.

Regarding the typical multiverse speculative theories -- they are largely irrelevant to ordinary life in every way: even most physicists think we'd never be able to know if they exist even if they do. You needn't worry about (typical) multiverse theories having any implication about God. He is the Creator, meaning really that He created all that is, even things we do not know about.

God has done things we do not know about even in this Universe -- we know this because we constantly find new and surprising things in nature and the Universe.

He is the Creator. This means He knows far more than we do. We cannot then categorically assert He could not have created multiverses (along the way), as if we have that omniscience, see.

But, yes, as I see it the idea in the OP is a mental speculation that has nothing to do with our actual reality. It was already that way in trying to reimagine God as different than revealed. That's the more fundamental reason it's not relevant to ordinary life, because it already was saying: imagine God to be totally unlike how God is as we have learned.
 
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fwGod

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You're probably referring to the idea in the OP. The idea in the OP is not actually what you'd usually read about if you read a typical article about the speculative theories about 'multiverse' -- instead that idea in the OP is actually an certain idea called the "Many Worlds Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics, and is not widely subscribed to among physicists. It's a peculiar type of multiverse theory in effect that is a very different class of thing, sorta like how a car is not like a herd of horses.

Regarding the typical multiverse speculative theories -- they are largely irrelevant to ordinary life in every way: even most physicists think we'd never be able to know if they exist even if they do. You needn't worry about (typical) multiverse theories having any implication about God. He is the Creator, meaning really that He created all that is, even things we do not know about.

God has done things we do not know about even in this Universe -- we know this because we constantly find new and surprising things in nature and the Universe.

He is the Creator. This means He knows far more than we do. We cannot then categorically assert He could not have created multiverses (along the way), as if we have that omniscience, see.

But, yes, as I see it the idea in the OP is a mental speculation that has nothing to do with our actual reality. It was already that way in trying to reimagine God as different than revealed. That's the more fundamental reason it's not relevant to ordinary life, because it already was saying: imagine God to be totally unlike how God is as we have learned.
It is known by what God has revealed to us of Himself that he did not create multiverses which would have Him be different there than He is here. For He said. "I change not." We can know from that that He doesn't even change within this universe. So, we can know that He wouldn't change in any hypothesized multiverse situation.
 
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Noxot

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I already think that this universe was created by the death of God. Eternal objects are already in God. Evil as a potential of infinite freedom exist in God so that God can reject it.

So God is Not defined by an irrational Infinity. but I guess in some ways we might be defined by an irrational Infinity or a blind freedom since we might be considered to be in a fallen state of being.

But I hold God as wisdom and love and the reality is ordered and structured by that order rather than the order of what some scientists like to believe in called a Multiverse.
 
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cloudyday2

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You're probably referring to the idea in the OP. The idea in the OP is not actually what you'd usually read about if you read a typical article about the speculative theories about 'multiverse' -- instead that idea in the OP is actually an certain idea called the "Many Worlds Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics, and is not widely subscribed to among physicists. It's a peculiar type of multiverse theory in effect that is a very different class of thing, sorta like how a car is not like a herd of horses.
There is something interesting about this idea of a multiverse. Typically I visualize a decision tree with each path from twig to trunk as a possible universe (life story of only a single particle I guess so the entire universe is far more difficult to imagine). But the probability waves aren't discrete. There are peaks and valleys and everything in between. The splitting of this particle into different universes doesn't happen at discrete time intervals and doesn't have discrete alternatives. So instead of a decision tree it is more like a watercolor painting of a decision tree on a very wet piece of paper. Everything is smeared. I suppose there is a type of math to describe this, but it is difficult to visualize.

I enjoy imagining things like that, but I wish I had gone further in physics and math so I would have those tools to help the imagining. But maybe there is an alternate universe where I learned those things. LOL
 
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cloudyday2

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So, the way I see it, Jesus is God, and God is Being itself. Therefore, Jesus would be unable to not be in accord with the will of God. So a multiverse where Jesus disobeyed God and sided against Him is impossible. A universe where God is sided against Himself, when God is the ground of being of said universe, is logically impossible.
Assume that this type of multiverse is true. Is there a way to make Christianity work in it? If it was possible physically for Jesus to be disobedient then this multiverse must have universes where that happened.

Imagine that the genetics and life experiences of Jesus created physical conditions in his brain that made disobedience physically impossible. Then there would be no alternate universes in the multiverse with an evil Jesus. That might work.
 
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cloudyday2

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@Halbhh , here is another question for you. You seem to know some things. There are the probability waves that can create areas in space where a particle cannot be observed. Could there be time intervals when the particle cannot be observed anywhere in space? There are rules about entropy and conservation of spin and so forth. What do those laws apply to? Don't these rules apply to every point in the universe at a given TIME. It seems to me that these laws should apply to interactions between particles. When two particles interact through their probability waves interfering then we could say those particles share the same TIME. So these laws don't apply to the universe - they apply to the combination of the probability waves of every particle in the universe at a single point in the universe? ... I suppose I'm making much ado about nothing. I will go to sleep LOL
 
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Halbhh

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@Halbhh , here is another question for you. You seem to know some things. There are the probability waves that can create areas in space where a particle cannot be observed. Could there be time intervals when the particle cannot be observed anywhere in space? There are rules about entropy and conservation of spin and so forth. What do those laws apply to? Don't these rules apply to every point in the universe at a given TIME. It seems to me that these laws should apply to interactions between particles. When two particles interact through their probability waves interfering then we could say those particles share the same TIME. So these laws don't apply to the universe - they apply to the combination of the probability waves of every particle in the universe at a single point in the universe? ... I suppose I'm making much ado about nothing. I will go to sleep LOL

heh heh, I'm not a quantum physicist, so I could just tell you best guesses on those questions from my reading of just a dozen or two articles in that field; my main interest and reading has been instead mostly in astrophysics/cosmology, and thus my reading on multiverses centered on the whole-physics/cosmology approach, where multiverses are now in favor as a way to try to account for the impossibly fine tuned and 'unnatural' configuration of our Universe. To me the Many Worlds notion seems like just a flight of fancy, but the string theory multiverse idea on the other hand has substantial reasons that suggest it is an actual possibility, but...not necessarily a probability though, due to recent fundamental physics observations. Ask, if you want some nice articles that lay out this general situation, which is about the only well-motivated (by physics as a whole) multiverse idea, in my view. They are articles that are about the real heat in physics, the primary/mainstream search for the theories to bring everything together that are thought to be the most likely avenues.

About your quantum mechanics questions, again, it's not my main interest nor am I an expert in that area, so I'll just make a couple of limited responses. By 'probability wave' I assume you mean the quantum mechanical wave equation for a particle for instance. Can an individual isolated particle that is known to be existing (is known to be existing already -- thus not a pair of "virtual particles", not the kind that appear spontaneously as a pair and then vanish) -- can an existing stable particle have times during which it could not ever be observed in principle? I think that answer is no, but you can investigate more to check theories on that if you are interested. You might search on: "can the same particle blink in and out of existence" as a likely search, and I notice it has a variety of interesting useful information from that search. Also, so far as I know spin is always conserved, and also in a closed system (such as the Universe as a whole we think) will entropy always be increasing (even though it definitely can decrease in some limited area that is open to other areas)? I think that answer is yes also. So, conservation of spin applies all the time, and the direction of entropy for a closed system is also reliably increasing so far as I know in all situations (but many systems, like Earth for example, are clearly not closed systems).
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Assume that this type of multiverse is true. Is there a way to make Christianity work in it? If it was possible physically for Jesus to be disobedient then this multiverse must have universes where that happened.

Imagine that the genetics and life experiences of Jesus created physical conditions in his brain that made disobedience physically impossible. Then there would be no alternate universes in the multiverse with an evil Jesus. That might work.
You don't seem to grasp the principle of a ground of Being. Nothing can exist without being sustained by God, and a Jesus who was not God in His full sense, is not Jesus but merely at best a prophet or at worst a lunatic or devil. Such a multiverse with a ground of Being divided against himself is a logical impossibility, like saying there is a multiverse where bachelors in its standard sense are married men. Further though, even in a multiverse, God would remain God in every one.
 
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For purposes of this thread, imagine that anything that has any probability of happening DOES happen in some alternate universe of the multiverse. Many Christians are willing to entertain the possibility of a multiverse, but what are the implications for Christian theology?

Here are a few thoughts to start:
- If Jesus CHOSE to be righteous in this universe then Jesus must have made the opposite choice in an alternate universe. Imagine Jesus bowing to Satan and becoming an enemy of the Father.
- If Christians CHOSE to believe then there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice.
- If God CHOSE this or that option then there are alternate universes where he chose differently.
- What is the person when alternate versions exist. Can we say God is righteous if he is only righteous in our universe and unrighteous in alternative universes? If God doesn't make a CHOICE to be righteous then is he truly righteous? And if God makes a choice then there must be alternate universes.

Just random thoughts. I am certain that people will have other thoughts (hopefully).

First I thought multiverse was something to do with a song.

Don,t have much thoughts on the idea,
other than, one universe where all is included,

like,
other worlds/realms/heavens/levels,
where this world is the lowest.

I like best of all, "levels"
 
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Robban

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First I thought multiverse was something to do with a song.

Don,t have much thoughts on the idea,
other than, one universe where all is included,

like,
other worlds/realms/heavens/levels,
where this world is the lowest.

I like best of all, "levels"

 
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FireDragon76

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There are some things that may not be possible in any possible world, like a square circle, for instance. Even if the multiverse hypothesis is correct.
 
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Noxot

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I think that Square circles are possible in other dimensions. Just got to tweak the rules of physics here and there.

Nothing is impossible with God. It's easy to imagine that God could make a marriage of a square and a circle. They are both Concepts and you can join the two together to make a New Concept called Square Circle.

I can already imagine a reality in which Square things shift into their opposite of a circle thing and vice versa. It's an alien kind of reality but surely it is possible for there to be a reality that is more morphic then this one.
 
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dlamberth

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Nothing is impossible with God. It's easy to imagine that God could make a marriage of a square and a circle. They are both Concepts and you can join the two together to make a New Concept called Square Circle.
It's easy to imagine. But I don't think it's within God's grasp to do so. Though I'm enjoying the mental visual of a Square Circle, concepts are mental exercises of the imagination.
 
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Noxot

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It's easy to imagine. But I don't think it's within God's grasp to do so. Though I'm enjoying the mental visual of a Square Circle, concepts are mental exercises of the imagination.

If I can imagine it, how much more can God imagine it? That is how I rationalize/judge it.
 
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dlamberth

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If I can imagine it, how much more can God imagine it? That is how I rationalize/judge it.
Even in your imagination your still unable to create a Square Circle. Same with God's imagination.

My problem with these concept ideas is that in order to have a God where nothing is impossible, because God is God after all, I feel is just more exercises of the imagination. I have no problem with there being things that God can not do.
 
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Halbhh

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It's easy to imagine. But I don't think it's within God's grasp to do so. Though I'm enjoying the mental visual of a Square Circle, concepts are mental exercises of the imagination.
Funny, you know a hexagon is a little bit like the offspring of a square and a circle.

Could you believe what was on the pole of Saturn???
 
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cloudyday2

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Even in your imagination your still unable to create a Square Circle. Same with God's imagination.

My problem with these concept ideas is that in order to have a God where nothing is impossible, because God is God after all, I feel is just more exercises of the imagination. I have no problem with there being things that God can not do.
I suppose it depends on definitions. A cylinder appears to be a square when viewed from one angle and a circle when viewed from another angle. But I agree with you that a square circle would require some real mental acrobatics. Of course the Trinity needs some mental acrobatics too. If God can imagine the Trinity then I suppose He might imagine a square circle?
 
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