Our unbelief is about to be exposed.... and replaced!

sdowney717 · Sep 5, 2019

Phil W said:
Not everyone who reads the words Paul wrote are converts.
Some are just researching what it will take to save them.
Those already in Christ, those reborn of Godly seed, already know these things, but Paul's audience is far greater than just the already "dead in Christ".
Thank God for pastors and prophets who deliver these exhortations to the churches on earth.

These people Paul was writing to were saved, the proof is in the words Paul uses.
Saved people ought to already know these things, but they often dont.
Notice v23, saying, the new man which WAS CREATED

22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Gideons300 · Sep 5, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Except it still has an effect on your life, else why would Paul tell us to put off the old man. It does not matter if it is dead then does it. Of course the old man is spiritually dead, it is why the body is dead because of sin, and it will never be redeemed, we get new bodies, we do not get makeovers of the old one. But as long as we are in the body, we have the deeds of the body in opposition to our spiritual life.
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts

If the old man could not affect us at all, Paul would not write like this.

What does the term "put off" mean to you? That would be a good place to start.

When we are told to put off by faith our old nature, we are not here told to battle sins that we never seem to defeat. That is like bashing bad fruit off from our tree as it continues to grow to try to keep it good.

You know what God tells us. Grab the axe. The tree has got to die. A bad tree will never bear good fruit. Ahhhh, but a good tree can without even trying.

No, guys, we are not battling our old nature. He died! We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the enemy who tempts us to continue to believe we are not actually dead. Just sorts 'play-like' dead.

Do we not see? This is our good fight of faith! Who ARE we? Old or.new? As we hold up our shields of faith that we are dead, then glory to God, that means sin no longer has authority over us!

Why? Because we have died with Christ.... an accomplished fact. We have been resurrected with Christ and made new creatures. Yup, fact #2.

Now, God says, your job is to appropriate those truths as YOUR accomplished truths... your possession... right this very minute. He calls it 'reckoning' and it is this truth we have failed to see.... until now.

Look. We are not to try to bear fruit, to be 'good', to stop sinning. We are here to abide... to remain.... in Christ, while He does the changing, and guys, He is an expert here.

But there is something we must understand. Our faith in the truth as to who we are must always be NOW faith. We cannot believe one day that we WILL be made new and victorious and free on some other day not named today, lol. No, that is hope and hope is not enough.

Faith is what we need, for faith steps out of the boat. That is what Paul tells us we must do in Romans 6. We must reckon ourselves as DEAD. We must believe that it is no more us, but Christ in us. Whoa.

Oh, when we see! We are new creatures, resurrected, but like Lazarus, we are still wrapped in our grave clothes.... a bunch of well-intended but scarily religious Christian mummies, LOL.

Do you know what our God asks of us? To believe the old us is DEAD. Then to believe that we are truly new creatures, free indeed, able to finally be molded into our own personal reflection of Jesus. This is the bond of that secures our abiding.

And what does God promise us? That if we continue in that faith, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, that as we believe we receive it, we SHALL have it. That time lag in between? That is our good fight of faith where our sanctification is progressive but observable, LOL..

Let that sink in for a minute. We are about to have our eyes opened to the depth of the power we possess as new creatures. And we are about to learn how to battle the enemy and win.... every time. The first drops of the latter rain are beginning to fall.

We are about to be blown away by how amazing our God is and how incredibly deep and satisfying it is to abide in Him.

And as we stand fast in the faith, we find we experience exactly what God promised to us, that is we abide in Him, then, glory to God, we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
FREE INDEED.

blessings,

Gideonp

sdowney717 · Sep 5, 2019

if saved people already know all these things, and always do what is true and righteous, why did Christ tell Peter to 'feed My sheep'? Why teach the church anything at all, write letters to them from apostles.

We are spiritually perfected when born of God, born again, but we still sin in our minds and our flesh.
It is why the body is dead, its dead because of sin, bit the spirit is life because of righteousness, so it is alive justified by the Spirit of God through Christ. People do not sin spiritually in the new relationship with God as we are joined one SPIRIT with Him, but we are not joined one body of flesh with Him. And that body and mind can still sin, even though the new born spirit can not and does not sin.

Example 1 John 4, says no sin, but this is about the new creation created in righteousness and holiness that does not sin ever,

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Contrasted with this about sin. How many can recognize the dual nature here, of the old man and the new man, both still present in saved persons.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

sdowney717 · Sep 5, 2019

It seems people here are saying that once they are saved they are perfected and never sin. Plainly that is unscriptural. If you say you have no sin, you are deceived, and the truth is not in you.

sdowney717 · Sep 5, 2019

Lets understand what good fruit is, it is not good works. Good trees bear good fruit and can not bear bad fruit, they bear good fruit to God by their new nature, but it does not mean they never sin again.
Christ says good fruit is determined by what you say about Him, God and the gospel.

Notice how much this is emphasized, that what they say determines if they are bearing good fruit or bad fruit.

Mathew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

We bear good fruit to God because of what God planted inside of us, and so then we respond, some 30, 60 or 100 fold. He sowed the seed, and caused it to be planted in the good soil of a newborn life to God. So we can do nothing except bear good fruit, because God has so ordained our situation.

Phil W · Sep 5, 2019

sdowney717 said:
If there was no future judgement of bad deeds, then why does Paul mention loss of rewards with only the spirit of a man being saved?
Paul is talking about building on the foundation, which is Christ, so this is moving forward from when you first got saved, that some will lose all rewards except the basic promise of eternal life.

What "bad deeds" will someone who has repented of sin going to commit?
Only those whose repentance was a lie to God will commit more sin.

Our past sins done in the body before our conversion dont have a bearing on our eternal life. It is only what we do with what we have been given that gets judged. The salvation is secure, but the rewards are not.

It is secure only if we continue to abide in Christ.
There is no sin in Christ, or in them who are "in Him".

1 Corinthians 3
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The "works" mentioned here are the converts believers bring to Christ.
What did you think the "works" were?

Phil W · Sep 5, 2019

sdowney717 said:
These people Paul was writing to were saved, the proof is in the words Paul uses.
Saved people ought to already know these things, but they often dont.
Notice v23, saying, the new man which WAS CREATED

22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

They didn't have these words in print before Paul's letter arrived.
He didn't know the deportment (?) of each reader.

Phil W · Sep 5, 2019

sdowney717 said:
if saved people already know all these things, and always do what is true and righteous, why did Christ tell Peter to 'feed My sheep'? Why teach the church anything at all, write letters to them from apostles.

To teach.

We are spiritually perfected when born of God, born again, but we still sin in our minds and our flesh.

Then you aren't perfect, are you?
You seem to think one can be born again without the death of the first "you".

It is why the body is dead, its dead because of sin, bit the spirit is life because of righteousness, so it is alive justified by the Spirit of God through Christ. People do not sin spiritually in the new relationship with God as we are joined one SPIRIT with Him, but we are not joined one body of flesh with Him. And that body and mind can still sin, even though the new born spirit can not and does not sin.

I think you must not believe Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
It isn't "our" body anymore, it is the Spirit of Christ's vessel.

Example 1 John 4, says no sin, but this is about the new creation created in righteousness and holiness that does not sin ever,
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.[/QUOTE]
As you have written, it is the servants of sin who commit sin.
No man can serve two masters.

Contrasted with this about sin. How many can recognize the dual nature here, of the old man and the new man, both still present in saved persons.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The split personality gospel has again raised its head.
John is writing about two entirely different walks of men.
One in the light-God, and the other in darkness-sin.
The verses addressed to the men in darkness don't apply to those walking in the light.
The folks who cannot say they have no sin are those in darkness-sin.
Those in the light have had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin...to the glory of God!

Phil W · Sep 6, 2019

sdowney717 said:
It seems people here are saying that once they are saved they are perfected and never sin. Plainly that is unscriptural. If you say you have no sin, you are deceived, and the truth is not in you.

Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.
I personally have crucified the flesh, (with the affections and lusts), by my baptism into Christ and into His death..
I was reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Arm yourself with the same mind!

Phil W · Sep 6, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Lets understand what good fruit is, it is not good works. Good trees bear good fruit and can not bear bad fruit, they bear good fruit to God by their new nature, but it does not mean they never sin again.
Christ says good fruit is determined by what you say about Him, God and the gospel.

Notice how much this is emphasized, that what they say determines if they are bearing good fruit or bad fruit.

Mathew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

We bear good fruit to God because of what God planted inside of us, and so then we respond, some 30, 60 or 100 fold. He sowed the seed, and caused it to be planted in the good soil of a newborn life to God. So we can do nothing except bear good fruit, because God has so ordained our situation.

Are you really convinced that God's seed can bring forth murderers, thieves, idolaters, and adulators?

sdowney717 · Sep 6, 2019

Phil W said:
Are you really convinced that God's seed can bring forth murderers, thieves, idolaters, and adulators?

Your quite the twister of scripture and also my words.

Phil W · Sep 6, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Your quite the twister of scripture and also my words.

My reply was in response to your..."but we are not joined one body of flesh with Him. And that body and mind can still sin, even though the new born spirit can not and does not sin."
The insinuation is that God's seed will bring forth evil fruit.
Jesus prayed this..."That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:21-23)
Jesus' prayer was answered in the affirmative.
We can indeed be "one with Him", and no longer servants of sin.

The skin can't control the mind.
The mind controls the skin.
Who is in charge?

Phil W · Sep 7, 2019

sdowney717 said:
If there was no future judgement of bad deeds, then why does Paul mention loss of rewards with only the spirit of a man being saved?
Paul is talking about building on the foundation, which is Christ, so this is moving forward from when you first got saved, that some will lose all rewards except the basic promise of eternal life.

There is no judgement for bad deeds because those committed to Christ don't do bad deeds.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; (1 Cor 3:15)
The "work" are for those brought to Christ during our ministry on earth, and those among them that are lost are the "things" we will feel loss for.
(There may be other interpretations of this so I offer what I understand)
We can't take anything we have here into heaven, so the "work" must be separate from "stuff" we accumulate.

Our past sins done in the body before our conversion don't have a bearing on our eternal life. It is only what we do with what we have been given that gets judged. The salvation is secure, but the rewards are not.

Our salvation is secure if we remain faithful to God.
But I can't imagine any one person getting "more" rewards than another.
Salvation itself is the only reward I strive for.
What do you envision might be an extra "reward"?

Phil W · Sep 7, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Your quite the twister of scripture and also my words.

I couldn't find where I posted that , so can't determine what it was in response to.
I do hope you believe the seed of God cannot bear evil fruit.

Oops!
I already answered this.

sdowney717 · Sep 7, 2019

Phil W said:
To teach.

Then you aren't perfect, are you?
You seem to think one can be born again without the death of the first "you".

I think you must not believe Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
It isn't "our" body anymore, it is the Spirit of Christ's vessel.

Example 1 John 4, says no sin, but this is about the new creation created in righteousness and holiness that does not sin ever,
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

As you have written, it is the servants of sin who commit sin.
No man can serve two masters.

The split personality gospel has again raised its head.
John is writing about two entirely different walks of men.
One in the light-God, and the other in darkness-sin.
The verses addressed to the men in darkness don't apply to those walking in the light.
The folks who cannot say they have no sin are those in darkness-sin.
Those in the light have had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
They can say they have no sin...to the glory of God!

Split personality gospel, that's a new one for me.

I debated answering again, thinking it is hopeless to reach you, but consider Romans 8 here

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

This is about saved persons, who have Christ in them, that their bodies are dead because of SIN. That is right, even though we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies unchecked, even when we check it by His power in us, the body is STILL DEAD because of SIN.
If we had no sin in our fleshly mindedness of our bodies, then we would never perish in our natural bodies, but we all die, because of this sin that our bodies tied to the old man does. Their is not a single person alive ever except Christ that lived a perfect life in his natural body without sin.
And consider that even though we have been forgiven all of our sins, our bodies are still DEAD because of that SIN.

sdowney717 · Sep 7, 2019

Galatians 5
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The word 'practice such things', is very important here. Because all people fail to live a perfect life and they do sin. If I follow your thinking, anyone who has an outburst of wrath even 1 time after they are saved, you would say they are not saved. But this is not true. It is only true if they practice these things, as in do them again and again, only then do they show themselves not to be converted to the gospel. Such people can never stop sinning.

Then Paul admonishes us to walk in the Spirit, this is to saved Christians. And then he says the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, there is conflict here ongoing in the life of every saved person. Then Paul says the Spirit is leading His people, so that they do not DO the things that they WISH to do. They would desire to do those things because of the old man desires to do the works of the flesh.

I wonder how many people can see the stupidity of thinking they are completely 100% perfected in this life while still living in a body of flesh...

Yet they are going to DIE, their body will Die because of their sin. But their spirit is alive and is joined to God.

When your deathly ill, or very old and feeling very much like your dying because your are dying, maybe only then you will understand that you body is dead because of your sin.

Phil W · Sep 7, 2019

sdowney717 said:
As you have written, it is the servants of sin who commit sin.
No man can serve two masters.

OK...

Split personality gospel, that's a new one for me.

Those who think they can walk in the Spirit and in darkness at the same time often say the flesh still survives along side the new them.
That leaves them with two personalities...they think.

I debated answering again, thinking it is hopeless to reach you, but consider Romans 8 here
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

This is about saved persons, who have Christ in them, that their bodies are dead because of SIN. That is right, even though we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies unchecked, even when we check it by His power in us, the body is STILL DEAD because of SIN.

THAT is where we differ.
Though dead in trespasses and sins, BEFORE having faith in Christ and exhibiting that faith, the death we suffer with Christ is the old man's.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)

If we had no sin in our fleshly mindedness of our bodies, then we would never perish in our natural bodies, but we all die, because of this sin that our bodies tied to the old man does.

It is written..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I died because of my sins when I was crucified with Christ. But I was also raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
A life walked in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
I will live forever if I endure till the end.
Please don't make the mistake of confusing "life" with the condition of the "vessel".

Their is not a single person alive ever except Christ that lived a perfect life in his natural body without sin.

Because we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life we CAN walk without sin. {Rom 6:4-5, 7)
The "natural" body is gone..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

And consider that even though we have been forgiven all of our sins, our bodies are still DEAD because of that SIN.

That body was buried with Christ at our water baptism-"immersion" into Christ and His death.
Thanks be to God!

Blade · Sep 15, 2019

we all missed it and our problem is? We are not walking, we are not filled... forgive me "we, all"? Maybe just worded wrong.

Sometimes ..God is talking to us.. only us.

Our unbelief is about to be exposed.... and replaced!

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