Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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LittleLambofJesus

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This argument doesn't even make sense considering the fact that Jesus never even states that earthquakes would increase.
mark 13:7-8 And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains.
Thad was all fulfilled in the 1st century Jewish wars, proving to the Jews that Jesus was not a false prophet [as dispensationlist futurist make Him out to be........

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century Judea


All 3 mention "the End".
Matt 24:8 and Mark 13:8 has
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Some versions leave out "pestilences" in Matt 24:7.
===========================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
===========================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS:
Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
================================
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The Factions in Jerusalem During the Roman Siege


MAY, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66


The Roman Procurator Florus demands 17 talents from the Jewish Temple treasury. This is the triggering insult for the Jews to begin their revolt. The Roman garrison in Jerusalem is overrun by rebels, who take control of the city. The rebels cause cessation of all sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, thus challenging Rome head-on.

The Jewish War, 4.4.5 286-287 "There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming. ....The Idumeans thought that God was angry at their taking arms, and that they would not escape punishment for their making war upon their metropolis. Ananus and his party thought that they had conquered without fighting, and that God acted as a general for them; but truly they proved both ill conjectures at what was to come... For as the night was far gone, and the storm very terrible, Ananus gave the guards in the cloisters leave to go to sleep; while it came into the heads of the Zealots to make use of the saws belonging to the Temple, and to cut the bars of the gates to pieces. The noise of the wind, and that not inferior sound of the thunder, did here also conspire with their designs, that the noise of the saws was not heard by the others. So they secretly went out of the Temple to the wall of the city, and made use of their saws, and opened that gate which was over against the Idumeans..."

Florus cannot handle the situation, so the (Roman) Syrian Governor, Cestius Gallus, is called in to subdue the rebellion. He attacks Jerusalem, gets up to the walls of the city, then unexpectedly withdraws, suffering heavy losses in retreat.

"And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place after their plot against our Saviour. For it was not before it, but afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous mother-city, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. I need not say that a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord has overtaken them all, in return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them." (AD 310s - Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, X)
 
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jgr

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Obviously God is not going to cast the believing Jews out with the unbelieving Jews and the reason why He has not cast the nation of Israel out is because He said He never would and the day is coming that the salvation of the nation of Israel will be fulfilled.

Paul sorrowed because he knew that the persistent rejection of the Gospel would lead to devastating judgment upon his people, which it did, but he also knew that it would not be the end of them. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

God has and will cast out the unfaithful disobedient unbelieving of Israel.

But God has never visited, and will never visit, devastating judgment upon the remaining "His people" (Romans 11:1) who are "His people which He foreknew" (Romans 11:2), the faithful obedient believing seven thousand who have not bowed to Baal (Romans 11:4), the faithful obedient believing remnant according to the election of grace (Romans 11:5).
 
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Kaon

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The promise of the restoration of the nation of Israel is found in the old covenant:

Deuteronomy 30:1-5 When all these things come upon you—the blessings and curses I have set before you—and you call them to mind in all the nations to which the LORD your God has banished you, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey His voice with all your heart and all your soul according to everything I am giving you today, then He will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the ends of the earth, He will gather you and return you from there. And the LORD your God will bring you into the land your fathers possessed, and you will take possession of it. He will cause you to prosper and multiply more than your fathers. The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live.

The Old testament prophecies of the restoration of the land of Israel are rooted in the clause of Deuteronomy 30:1-5. Several examples include:

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Ezekiel 39:25-28 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all the treachery they committed against Me, when they dwell securely in their land, with no one to frighten them. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, when I regather them to their own land, after exiling them among the nations, not leaving any of them behind

Amos 9:14-15 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God.

This was found fulfilled once under the old covenant, when those from the southern kingdom and northern kingdom returned to the land after the Babylonian exile.

Ezra 1:5 Then rose up the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 9:1-4 So all Israel was recorded in genealogies, and these are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. And Judah was taken into exile in Babylon because of their breach of faith. Now the first to dwell again in their possessions in their cities were Israel, the priests, the Levites, and the temple servants. And some of the people of Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh lived in Jerusalem: Uthai the son of Ammihud, son of Omri, son of Imri, son of Bani, from the sons of Perez the son of Judah

However, the old covenant ended and was superseded by the new covenant through the blood of Christ.


Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second

Hebrews 9:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Additionally, the old covenant was only a shadow that was meant to point to Christ, and not the true reality.

Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


The old covenant is no longer in effect, as it was superseded by the new covenant. Thus, the promises of restoration to the land are no longer a valid.

an Earthly example to help understand:
I was single and created a will in which my best friend would inherit my estate in the event of my death. However, I later married and changed that will so that my wife, and not my friend, would inherit my estate in the event of my death. The new will cancels the old will, and thus my best friend would not inherit my estate.


So is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Do you think that land restoration is a strip of land? Is that what the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself said? Or, did humans say that?

If you believe that the old law and covenant is obsolete, you have missed the point. God never made His Law obsolete; people need to stop behaving as if He did, teaching people this dangerous facet of institutionalism.

Israel is a people; if Israel the land was the renewed land, then why are so many Hebrews being exiled from Israel? Why is there a silence of ethnic Hebrews who also deserve the land - according to the theory that the Most High God could only afford to restore the Hebrews with physical land.

Israel is a PEOPLE, and the world will always be ignorant of who Israel is because we follow institution, not the Most High God. When the world ends and He comes as a theif, some of us will be hysterical because opportunity of life was swindled away by charlatans and dogma.
 
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Danoh

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There are still Jews coming to Christ today which makes Romans 11:5 apply today and to this day, the majority of the nation of Israel still remains in unbelief but it will not always be so. (Rom. 11:26)

Better to allow Scripture (in this case, Rom. 11:7) to interpret Scripture (in this case, Rom. 11:5) not world events.

2 Timothy 2:15-18.
 
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jgr

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If you believe that the old law and covenant is obsolete, you have missed the point. God never made His Law obsolete; people need to stop behaving as if He did, teaching people this dangerous facet of institutionalism.

Scripture disagrees.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What is your definition of obsolescence?
 
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Kaon

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Scripture disagrees.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What is your definition of obsolescence?

First of all, the Most High God has to say it; something as serious as making His Law obsolete needs to have been put in the canonical text by Church authority. Otherwise, we have a problem.


As an example, someone would have to have a notarized and signed copy of a statement from my father or mother telling me I can disobey a rule they previously set up for me to actually believe I have the authority to do so. You, or even the president cannot tell me that it is OK for me to do something my parents have previously told me is wrong.

Next, obsolete implies nullity - a voided operation of something. With respect to the Law of the Most High God, it means we don't have to follow it anymore. Where did the Most High God ever say that we could make void, or null His Law previously set up for His people?
 
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God has and will cast out the unfaithful disobedient unbelieving of Israel.

But God has never visited, and will never visited, devastating judgment upon the remaining "His people" (Romans 11:1) who are "His people which He foreknew" (Romans 11:2), the faithful obedient believing seven thousand who have not bowed to Baal (Romans 11:4), the faithful obedient believing remnant according to the election of grace (Romans 11:5).


And He will never cast out the remaining third part of Israel who will call upon Jesus for deliverance when they have passed through the refining fire foretold in Zechariah 3:9. After that, the repentant will be what consists of the nation of Israel.
 
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Better to allow Scripture (in this case, Rom. 11:7) to interpret Scripture (in this case, Rom. 11:5) not world events.

2 Timothy 2:15-18.

Romans 11:7 is contrasting they who are of the election of grace to those are not. In this case, the believing Jews in Paul's day had obtained what the unbelieving Jews were also seeking yet could not because they were blinded to the truth of the Gospel. The unbelieving Jews still continue to seek after what we ourselves have obtained in Christ, but fail to because they persist in obtaining that which they seek through an obsolete covenant rather than the New Covenant in Christ. But it will not always be so.
 
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Do you think that land restoration is a strip of land? Is that what the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself said? Or, did humans say that?

If you believe that the old law and covenant is obsolete, you have missed the point. God never made His Law obsolete; people need to stop behaving as if He did, teaching people this dangerous facet of institutionalism.

Israel is a people; if Israel the land was the renewed land, then why are so many Hebrews being exiled from Israel? Why is there a silence of ethnic Hebrews who also deserve the land - according to the theory that the Most High God could only afford to restore the Hebrews with physical land.

Israel is a PEOPLE, and the world will always be ignorant of who Israel is because we follow institution, not the Most High God. When the world ends and He comes as a theif, some of us will be hysterical because opportunity of life was swindled away by charlatans and dogma.


God intended and still intends to give them more than just the small piece of land that makes up the territory and borders of Israel. Their territory is destined to expand, especially so under the rulership of Christ. And where did you hear or read that Hebrews are being expelled form their own homeland and who is expelling them? The last I looked, the Israeli government was controlled and run by Hebrews and the number of Jews in the land has been increasing over the years, not decreasing.
 
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jgr

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And He will never cast out the remaining third part of Israel who will call upon Jesus for deliverance when they have passed through the refining fire foretold in Zechariah 3:9. After that, the repentant will be what consists of the nation of Israel.

Paul quotes Isaiah regarding the remnant in Romans 9:27.

Both Isaiah and Paul use the word "remnant".

Paul also uses "remnant" in Romans 11:5, referring it specifically to the "election of grace" i.e. faithful obedient believers in Christ.

Neither Isaiah nor Paul convey the size of the remnant.

Zechariah uses "remnant" in Zechariah 8:6 and 8:12. He does not, however, use the word in Zechariah 13.

There is thus no evidence that Zechariah himself considered Zechariah 13:9 to be referring to a "remnant".

Paul quotes various OT Scriptures in his epistles, but never quotes Zechariah.

There is no evidence that Paul considered Zechariah 13:9 to refer to the remnant of which both Isaiah and he speak.
 
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Paul quotes Isaiah regarding the remnant in Romans 9:27.

Both Isaiah and Paul use the word "remnant".

Paul also uses "remnant" in Romans 11:5, referring it specifically to the "election of grace" i.e. faithful obedient believers in Christ.

Neither Isaiah nor Paul convey the size of the remnant.

Zechariah uses "remnant" in Zechariah 8:6 and 8:12. He does not, however, use the word in Zechariah 13.

There is thus no evidence that Zechariah himself considered Zechariah 13:9 to be referring to a "remnant".

Paul quotes various OT Scriptures in his epistles, but never quotes Zechariah.

There is no evidence that Paul considered Zechariah 13:9 to refer to the remnant of which both Isaiah and he speak.


Thirty percent of a nation is still a remnant. The word "remnant" may not appear in that passage, but we do know the size of the remnant that will be saved when Christ returns. When we put Zechariah 3:9, Romans 9:27, 11:26, and the passage of Isaiah which Paul cites, they are all talking about the day of salvation for the nation of Israel. Again, it is just that Zechariah tells us the size of the remnant that will be saved.
 
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BABerean2

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Thirty percent of a nation is still a remnant. The word "remnant" may not appear in that passage, but we do know the size of the remnant that will be saved when Christ returns. When we put Zechariah 3:9, Romans 9:27, 11:26, and the passage of Isaiah which Paul cites, they are all talking about the day of salvation for the nation of Israel. Again, it is just that Zechariah tells us the size of the remnant that will be saved.


On what day was the iniquity removed?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Are you still trying to change the word "so" to the word "then", in Romans 11:26?

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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And He will never cast out the remaining third part of Israel who will call upon Jesus for deliverance when they have passed through the refining fire foretold in Zechariah 3:9. After that, the repentant will be what consists of the nation of Israel.
What exactly is the "refining fire"?
They were refined by the furnace of fire of 70ad Jerusalem........Daniel 12 and Luke 21 and Revelation were fulfilled upon their 1st century 70ad ancestors........[perhaps the the furnaces during the Jewish holocaust in ww2 might be included?]
Just ask any Jew today.....

Isa 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear, And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,”
Says the LORD,
Whose fire is in Zion And whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"
Ezekiel 22:
17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger<639> and in My fury<2534>, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.
21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath<5678>, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury<2534> on you.'
=============================
6884 tsaraph a primitive root; to fuse (metal), i.e. refine (literally or figuratively):--cast, (re-)fine(-er), founder, goldsmith, melt, pure, purge away, try.

Dan 11:35
“And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
Dan 12:10
Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Mal 3:
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.
3 - He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.
[ Luke 21:36 Revelation 6:17

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man.
[Malachi 3:2-3 Revelation 6:17]

Rev 6:
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
[Malachi 3:2-3 Luke 21:36]



 
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jgr

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Thirty percent of a nation is still a remnant. The word "remnant" may not appear in that passage, but we do know the size of the remnant that will be saved when Christ returns. When we put Zechariah 3:9, Romans 9:27, 11:26, and the passage of Isaiah which Paul cites, they are all talking about the day of salvation for the nation of Israel. Again, it is just that Zechariah tells us the size of the remnant that will be saved.

The Scriptural record stands.

It contains no evidence that Paul, or even Zechariah himself, considered Zechariah 13:9 to refer to the remnant of which both Isaiah and Paul speak.
 
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On what day was the iniquity removed?

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Are you still trying to change the word "so" to the word "then", in Romans 11:26?

.


Are you still dealing in semantics?
 
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The Scriptural record stands.

It contains no evidence that Paul, or even Zechariah himself, considered Zechariah 13:9 to refer to the remnant of which both Isaiah and Paul speak.


Zechariah 13:9 says that a day will come when two thirds of the nation of Israel will die, and that the remaining third will be saved. Is that or is that not a remnant?
 
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What exactly is the "refining fire"?
They were refined by the furnace of fire of 70ad Jerusalem........Daniel 12 and Luke 21 and Revelation were fulfilled upon their 1st century 70ad ancestors........[perhaps the the furnaces during the Jewish holocaust in ww2 might be included?]
Just ask any Jew today.....

Isa 31:9
He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear, And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,”
Says the LORD,
Whose fire is in Zion And whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"

=============================
6884 tsaraph a primitive root; to fuse (metal), i.e. refine (literally or figuratively):--cast, (re-)fine(-er), founder, goldsmith, melt, pure, purge away, try.

Dan 11:35
“And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
Dan 12:10
Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Mal 3:
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.
3 - He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.
[ Luke 21:36 Revelation 6:17

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man.
[Malachi 3:2-3 Revelation 6:17]

Rev 6:
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
[Malachi 3:2-3 Luke 21:36]





We do not know what this "fire" will be for sure, but it is a kind of fire meant to purify the nation of Israel, not destroy them. It certainly had nothing to do with the events of 70 A.D. as that was a fulfillment of the judgment pronounced upon them by Christ for their rejection of Him at His first coming, and it certainly was not the holocaust which was clearly intended to destroy the Jewish people.

But this refining process will take place at a time when all the nations of the world make war against Israel. The casualties that the armies of the world will suffer at the hands of Israel will no doubt be massive, but two thirds of the nation will also be killed before Jesus delivers the remaining third from their enemies as is foretold in Zechariah chapters 12-14.

Two thirds loss would clearly be devastating to any nation or people, though not necessarily insurmountable. In comparison to the losses sustained by Israel, the devastation to come upon the Gentile nations and peoples is destined to be even worse.
 
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keras

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We do not know what this "fire" will be for sure, but it is a kind of fire meant to purify the nation of Israel, not destroy them. It certainly had nothing to do with the events of 70 A.D. as that was a fulfillment of the judgment pronounced upon them by Christ for their rejection of Him at His first coming, and it certainly was not the holocaust which was clearly intended to destroy the Jewish people.

But this refining process will take place at a time when all the nations of the world make war against Israel. The casualties that the armies of the world will suffer at the hands of Israel will no doubt be massive, but two thirds of the nation will also be killed before Jesus delivers the remaining third from their enemies as is foretold in Zechariah chapters 12-14.

Two thirds loss would clearly be devastating to any nation or people, though not necessarily insurmountable. In comparison to the losses sustained by Israel, the devastation to come upon the Gentile nations and peoples is destined to be even worse.
We do know what that fire is the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 30:26 plainly states on that Day the sun will shine 7 times brighter.....An explosion of the suns surface, a Coronal mass ejection, confirmed by Psalms 50:1-3, Malachi 4:1, Psalms 11:4-6, 2 Peter 3:7, +
It will strike the Middle East at mid day, Zephaniah 2:4, and virtually depopulate the entire area. Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Isaiah 34:1-8, +
Only a few Messianic Jews will survive hiding underground. Isaiah 29:1-4, a genuine remnant of a few thousand at the most. Many will die around the world, Jeremiah 25:33, but those who heeded the warnings and took shelter, will survive.

Your idea of the survival and redemption of the current Jewish nation, is quite wrong and not supported by the Bible. The Lord intends to wipe out both the righteous and the wicked from the Negev to the North, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:1-14
The actual remnant will join with their Christian brethren and all the faithful people of God will live in all of the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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jgr said:
Not so.
This is a classic spiritual “believing baby - unbelieving bathwater” scenario. The previous chapter has concluded with:

Romans 10
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Paul is describing the "unbelieving bathwater" ethnic majority of the nation of Israel, having already recognized in Romans 9:27 that only a "believing baby" remnant will be saved, and that the "unbelieving bathwater" remainder will be cast away i.e. thrown out.

This is the reason for his anguish at the beginning of Romans 9.

In Romans 11:1, he is asking rhetorically if God is going to throw out the believing baby with the unbelieving bathwater. “His people”, additionally qualified as “His people whom He foreknew”, specifically identifies those of whom Paul is speaking as being the believing baby (1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God"). Paul then declares that ethnically he is the unbelieving bathwater, but spiritually he is the believing baby. As the latter, he will not be lost and cast away along with the former.

Paul leaves no doubt that "His people which He foreknew" refers to the faithful obedient believing "remnant according to the election of grace", in Romans 11:4,5.

So Paul's question in effect is:
“Has God cast away the believing remnant of ethnic Israelites, His people whom He foreknew; because the majority of ethnic Israelites are unbelievers who are cast away”?

His answer is:
“No; I'm an ethnic Israelite, of whom the majority are unbelievers; but I myself am a believer, which makes me one of His people whom He foreknew, one of the "remnant according to the election of grace"; and I'm thus one of those who is not cast away”.

God has only one people of Israel who are “His people whom He foreknew”, and they are His "believing baby" faithful obedient remnant according to the election of grace, who are not cast away with the "unbelieving bathwater".

They and faithful obedient believing Gentiles are grafted together to comprise all Israel (Romans 11:26) who are saved from sin, and in the end will be saved from eternal punishment.
Contenders Edge said:
Obviously God is not going to cast the believing Jews out with the unbelieving Jews and the reason why He has not cast the nation of Israel out is because He said He never would and the day is coming that the salvation of the nation of Israel will be fulfilled.

Paul sorrowed because he knew that the persistent rejection of the Gospel would lead to devastating judgment upon his people, which it did, but he also knew that it would not be the end of them. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)
jgr said:
God has and will cast out the unfaithful disobedient unbelieving of Israel.

But God has never visited, and will never visited, devastating judgment upon the remaining "His people" (Romans 11:1) who are "His people which He foreknew" (Romans 11:2), the faithful obedient believing seven thousand who have not bowed to Baal (Romans 11:4), the faithful obedient believing remnant according to the election of grace (Romans 11:5).
Contenders Edge said:
And He will never cast out the remaining third part of Israel who will call upon Jesus for deliverance when they have passed through the refining fire foretold in Zechariah 3:9. After that, the repentant will be what consists of the nation of Israel.
LittleLambofJesus said:
What exactly is the "refining fire"?
They were refined by the furnace of fire of 70ad Jerusalem........Daniel 12 and Luke 21 and Revelation were fulfilled upon their 1st century 70ad ancestors........[perhaps the the furnaces during the Jewish holocaust in ww2 might be included?]
Just ask any Jew today.....
We do not know what this "fire" will be for sure, but it is a kind of fire meant to purify the nation of Israel, not destroy them. It certainly had nothing to do with the events of 70 A.D. as that was a fulfillment of the judgment pronounced upon them by Christ for their rejection of Him at His first coming, and it certainly was not the holocaust which was clearly intended to destroy the Jewish people.

But this refining process will take place at a time when all the nations of the world make war against Israel. The casualties that the armies of the world will suffer at the hands of Israel will no doubt be massive, but two thirds of the nation will also be killed before Jesus delivers the remaining third from their enemies as is foretold in Zechariah chapters 12-14.

Two thirds loss would clearly be devastating to any nation or people, though not necessarily insurmountable. In comparison to the losses sustained by Israel, the devastation to come upon the Gentile nations and peoples is destined to be even worse.
Revelation and the 70ad Olivet Discourse does not involve the whole global world......tho it still affects the whole religious world today, more specifically, OC Mosaic Judaism.......

Jer 1:15
For behold, I am calling All the families of the kingdoms of the north,” says the LORD;
They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem,
Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah
.
======================================
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 17:
15 And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot, and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning Her in fire.

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
==================================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

destruction_complete.jpg


 
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