Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

lastofall said:

They that do put their trust into the hands and power of God shall not seek for an alternative to His Word, but shall apply to the law of Christ in all things: if not then they are putting their trust into the hands of this world.

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The Word also says to be subject to the civil authorities, and that the police do not carry their weapons in vain. We have criminal and civil laws, and if they are broken we can expect the authorities to take action.

Threatening language/behaviour and Male Assaults Female are criminal offences, and to block a victim going to the police through fear of contravening God's Word is essentially acting to defeat the course of justice, which is also a criminal offence that can land a person before a judge, and can possibly carry a prison sentence.

If a person counsels a victim of domestic violence not to go to the police and report it, and instead to trust God to somehow put things right, and that victim is seriously injured or even murdered by her abusive partner, the person giving the counsel could find themselves facing litigation because of negligence and failing to provide adequate protection for a person in a life-threatening situation, and that could result in being sued for many thousands of dollars. And quite rightly so.

Endeavourer said:

But @Redwingfan9, the transcript is there so you can see the context. You can also see the video if you choose.



But wouldn't you agree that is very dangerous advice? Why should a woman suffering domestic violence not call the police immediately?

Per research done by Alanna Vagianos: The number of American troops killed in Afghanistan and Iraq between 2001 and 2012 was 6,488. The number of American women who were murdered by current or ex male partners during that time was 11,766.​

@topher694 as a pastor, what would your comment be to another pastor who told a woman who was "smacked" to get in touch with the church in the morning, and that the church is really the ultimate solution to her problem? (per Piper transcript in post #21), portion of Piper's comment cited below:

"If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.

Every time I deal with somebody in this, I find the ultimate solution under God in the church...."

Edited to add: BTW, @topher694 has shown through his discourse that he understands this dynamic and would be one of those safe pastors.

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I'm not sure that he wouldn't support calling the cops. Like I said, his comment wasn't the most artful I've ever seen. He does say to go to the church afterward, that doesn't mean he opposes going to the cops first.

Endeavourer said:

Yes, that was an element of it, and I agree with your comment with respect to that.

I just wanted to clarify your post because some people view marital abuse as only that which is physical in some way. Some even teach there is no such thing as marital rape! Emotional, mental and spiritual abuse can be as emotionally devastating as physical abuse.

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I would argue, abuse physically is equivalent to being equivalent to adultery. It is taking a gift of love, care, intimacy and turning it into prostitution for housing and protection.

There is no excuse for abuse and force to any degree. For a people who put love at the centre of their lives, to look at abuse as a way of expressing ones life, is hypocrisy. In marriage we commit ourselves to uphold and minister one to another. Unfortunately we are bound one to another, with each persons limitations and blessing. In truth men are more sexually driven and women may peak in the way they express themselves, but this often fades over time, with the stresses and problems of life. I think the experience of most is the diming of their sexual life, replaced with care and support over time.

Honesty is most important. Domination and coercive behaviour is not of Christ or His way. Unfortunately so many claim to know Jesus but do not know how to love the person they are commanded to love and care for. If they cannot love their partner in words and deeds then how can they claim to love and care for people they do not know. God bless you

Endeavourer said:

This was originally posted in the marriage forum but I'm reposting here by request so everyone else may join the discussion too.

There are some good pastors out there who understand the dynamics of abuse. I've found them to be few and far between. Several dynamics are at play:

a) protection of the ol' boys
b) twisting Scripture verses about wives submitting to husbands
c) the outsized influence in the churches of the popular book "Love and Respect", aka "The Husband's Calling to Abuse His Wife" that has made many recommended reading lists and widely adapted by conservative churches; however the book plays on Bible-y phrases and concepts that are unquestioned in the filters of many conservative believers to subtly twist and shift the enactment of submission beyond anything the Bible would recognize.

Here is one story of an abused wife who sought help from the church. I'm so very sad to say this is result is more typical than not. So, so sad.

Women Say Harvest Protected Abusive Husbands, Not Abused Wives, Part Two | Julie Roys

"Love and Respect's" fingerprints are all over this part:

"However, Frers [the abused wife] said in 2012, she told Becky Willey that she was afraid to join her husband who had three months earlier moved to Fairfax, Virginia, to plant a church. Frers said Willey dismissed her concerns, saying that all she had to do was sleep with her husband and things would be fine.

Frers said this answer was typical for Becky Willey. Frers said in meetings with other pastors’ wives, Willey would teach wives that their number one role as wives was to give their husbands what no one else could—sex. Frers said Willey told wives that it was a sin for women to refuse their husbands sexually. This was one of the reasons Frers said she didn’t tell leaders at HBC Davenport about her husband’s sexual abuse. “I feared (my husband),” Frers said, “but I feared God even more.”

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The thing is, I disagree with just about everything you've said. I've seen many so called "abusive" marriages change and it was all because they DID go to God and go to a Pastor and doing so saved their marriage. It's been said to me before and I will say it again there is NO such thing as a toxic marriage.

Marriage is a unity of a man and a woman and a gift from God it's been that way since God created Adam and Eve.

I've also seen God work miracles in couples who stay together and actually keep their marriage vows that they made to God. To get divorced is to basically say to God "Sorry, we lied when we said we were making a LIFELONG commitment to stay married. And to love and cherish each other all the days of our lives. Through the good and the bad."

Even the most "toxic" of marriages has it's good parts. Yet people don't focus on this, they only focus on the bad because they expect their partners to be perfect.

That's like saying to Christ "Sorry, being a Christian is too hard so I don't want to be a Christian anymore. Even though I said and promised to you that I would make a lifelong commitment to you."

Do you think these kinds of people will escape God's judgement? Of course not! God will judge ALL of us. Both believers and unbelievers and believers will be judged by just how faithful they were to God throughout their lives and for every idle word spoken.

The only reason a good Pastor these days is against divorce is because God himself is against divorce! Christ was QUITE clear on the way God feels about divorce and couples will divorce each other these days just because their partner BREATHES on them funny.

Not to mention *I* was in a abusive marriage! My wife used to beat on me, my wife used to constantly mistreat me and not do her duties as a wife. She would basically just sit on her butt all day and do nothing but play video games. We would CONSTANTLY argue about just about everything and I've done my fair share of abuse to her too by cutting off the power to the house in the middle of the winter because she was playing the sims and not listening to what I had to say, to throwing random objects at her when I was mad, to MANY other horrible things.

Our marriage and dating life were just not... great at all. But even through all of the horribleness there still was good in our relationship or we never would have gotten married in the first place. But, thanks to God's help our marriage has improved. She hasn't hit me for at least 3 years now, we're starting to have productive arguments, I haven't thrown stuff in a long time, my wife is starting to do her daily duties instead of being on the computer all day, and all all in all we're for the most part happily married now. Our marriage is getting better and better with each passing day.

It took 6 years of waiting but my relationship to my wife changed for the better. Why? Because we actually kept our marriage vows and were willing to stick it out for the rest of our lives. I was willing to be abused ...etc and to abuse her ...etc for the rest of my life because I made a promise to God to stay married.

It might sound stupid to you, but I actually CARE about the promises I make to God! When I promised to be a follower of Christ for the rest of my life, I meant it. When I promised to be married to the same woman for the rest of my life no matter HOW bad things got, I meant it. Why? Because, she was God's chosen mate for me. I didn't choose her, GOD chose her! So that should be good enough for me because, God was the one that planned each and every part of my life. Of ALL of our lives.

Besides, a lifetime of abuse is NOTHING compared to what God has in store for us on the other side and what God would have in store for a couple who cared about their commitment to Christ SO much that they were willing to stay married despite all of the horrible things that they did to each other and were willing to focus on the good parts of their marriages instead of the bad.

So I disagree with the thought that abusive people cannot change. It's a problem that they need to go to God and a good pastor for help on, but they CAN change. It's not just me either I've personally seen MANY marriages change for the better because of what God and a good pastor can do.

But, I will admit that there are cases where people CANNOT change and they've been stuck in abusive marriages for many years or even a lifetime. And if they WANT to get divorced, they technically can. But, divorce should be seen as a last option after you've exhausted everything else and you cannot remarry unless you want to be labeled an adulterer by God (Matthew 19:9). You're right though, God did say that if your spouse cheats on you that you can freely remarry without being labeled an adulterer but that's the ONLY reason for a biblical divorce in God's eyes. There literally is NO other reason. To divorce for another reason is something that mankind made up, not God.

One cannot claim to follow Christ and then NOT obey his teachings or only obey the ones that they like! You cannot go through the Bible and say "Well the Bible says Abortion and Homosexuality is wrong but it says good things about other stuff that I agree on so I'll pick and choose those." NO! That's WRONG. You either follow God/the Bible as a whole or do not follow him at all!

You say that men twist scripture verses that tell women to submit to their husbands? What's twisting about what it actually says in scripture? But, it also tells MEN to submit to their wives as well. I'll prove it.

Let's read Ephesians 5:21-33 together.

" Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Be Subject to One Another

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church- for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. "

What is so taken out of context about that? And that's just one Bible verse! It's taught THROUGHOUT the Bible. Some example verses are 1 Peter 3:1-22, 1 Peter 3:7, Genesis 3:16, Proverbs 31:10-15, Hebrews 13:4, Genesis 2:18 ... the list goes on. We're supposed to submit to each other as Christ submitted to us. It's not because women are the inferior sex or because men are supposed to love and respect their wives but because that's how God DESIGNED us from the very beginning! If you do not submit to your husband and if your husband does not submit to you, than you are NOT following God's plan for your life. If you don't like it, take it up with God! God's word has NEVER changed since he gave it to Moses. Christ merely came to FULFILL it (Matthew 5:17) so that we can have a hope of salvation because we were ALL condemned before Christ came. But just because God fulfilled the law does NOT mean that the law and his commandments still technically aren't in effect. It just means that we no longer have to PERFECTLY keep the law and God's commandments.

But it goes both ways too. A husband if he's truly following Christ should love and respect his wife as God commanded and also yes, submit to her as well. It's a two way street.

I'm sorry for going on an hour + long rant but it just angers me when somebody says that they're following God when they're only following the verses that they like and they ignore the other ones completely because APPARENTLY the times have changed. They haven't. It's just that overtime people have become less Godly as Christ's return is getting closer and closer.

But, do NOT view my hour + long rant as me saying that you are not saved. You are. Because we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. You just are not following Christ's teachings and will one day appear before Christ ashamed.

LaBèlla said:

This is true. But I wonder if you realize the slippery slope you’re on. Either the woman possessed masochistic tendencies upon entry or developed them within the relationship.

Masochists enjoy pain. And given the subject, I think its best to err on the side of prudence. Domestic violence is not masochism. Nor do its victims enjoy being hurt as a rule.

A spirit of masochism or sadism is most likely to rest on individuals whose sexual proclivities veer in that direction. They engage these acts consensually. Or by force in the case of abusers.

Violations in their relationships usually hinge on consent. Meaning, the other party has undertaken behaviors they didn’t agree to.

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I see your concern for victims being sort of being blamed for maybe being considered masochistic.

However, I wasn't trying to blame anyone. I was just sharing what I felt the Holy Spirit told me in my own case, speculating that it could be true for some others, and affirming that there are evil spirits of all kinds causing human suffering.

You say "A spirit of masochism or sadism is most likely to rest on individuals whose sexual proclivities veer in that direction. They engage these acts consensually. Or by force in the case of abusers."

Not one bit of that has ever been true for me. Perhaps if it had been true, then I would not have been warned off. Don't know. One way or another you are, probably with the best of intentions, proclaiming things as hard and fast spiritual truths and rules when really, no doubt neither of us knows all the ins and outs on this topic. It is interesting and can be helpful to listen to others opinions. But we have to know ourselves, too, which I do. Further the Bible says "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you." I feel He did, indeed, teach me something and it wasn't that I have any "sexual proclivities" in masochistic directions.

Maybe unwisely I shared something very personal. Now it seems I am being accused of things, in a way, indirectly, that are no way true about me. Not pleasant.

You seem like a sincere and good hearted person LaBella, and I have enjoyed many of your posts on this forum. But as for this topic the subject is now closed for me. Blessings and bye.

Neostarwcc said:

But, divorce should be seen as a last option after you've exhausted everything else and you cannot remarry unless you want to be labeled an adulterer by God (Matthew 19:9).

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So how many years should a wife wait after getting the crap beat out of her or her children, and how many visits to the hospital before she divorces?

LoricaLady said:

I see your concern for victims being sort of being blamed for maybe being considered masochistic.

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Thank you for your kind response. It was not my intention to accuse you of anything. But I am very conversant in that subject and lovingly suggesting that it should never be uttered without a clear word from the Lord and confirmation from the parties involved.

An implication of masochism for a domestic violence victim could be very damaging and that was the context of my response. It would lend the impression they enjoyed it due to its meaning. That is the association most will have.

If you revisit my comments on your admission you’ll see the same. I addressed it spiritually because I understood what you were getting at. I didn’t make a natural application. The second remark was not related to you at all.

LaBèlla said:

Thank you for your kind response. It was not my intention to accuse you of anything. But I am very conversant in that subject and lovingly suggesting that it should never be uttered without a clear word from the Lord and confirmation from the parties involved.

An implication of masochism for a domestic violence victim could be very damaging and that was the context of my response. It would lend the impression they enjoyed it due to its meaning. That is the association most will have.

If you revisit my comments on your admission you’ll see the same. I addressed it spiritually because I understood what you were getting at. I didn’t make a natural application. The second remark was not related to you at all.

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I think that considering a spirit of masochism being involved in domestic abuse could actually help someone in a deliverance ministry set a person free IF the Holy Spirit indicates that, yes, one is there. If nothing else, being led about such an evil spirit could lead to more effective prayers. I don't think we have to be shy about considering such things as long as we don't make personal accusations or implications. It is not blaming others if we consider demonic forces. It is actually blaming the devil.

You say an implication should not be uttered without a clear word from the Lord. That's what I had. A clear word to ditch that guy. I never once said that others could have the same potential problem. I wondered if they sometimes might have. This is perfectly logical and Biblical to do. I said, correctly, that the devil has demons of all kinds who can do all kinds of damage. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with a thing I said and do not feel I should be taken to task or corrected for any of it.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. Let's just drop it, okay?

Endeavourer said:

His comment was made in 2009. Predictably there was an outcry amongst women who had endured abuse under these auspices and didn't get help from the church, and amongst their advocates. Sometime later his church took the video down.

A man who has misspoken in a way that endangers victims of domestic violence would surely have spoken up to clarify right away when he realizes he made an an error, right?

Finally in 2013, he issued a correction which included the following remarks:

Therefore, an abusive husband is breaking God’s law. He is disobeying Christ. He is not to be indulged but disciplined by the church.

The wife is not insubordinate to ask the church for help. [Note: he's still worried about her subordination even though she is being beaten.]

This legitimate recourse to civil protection may be done in a spirit that does not contradict the spirit of love and submission to her husband, for a wife may take this recourse with a heavy and humble heart.​

Do you think it's Biblical for a wife to be made to feel God wants her to continue to love and submit to a man who is beating her?

Would you counsel your daughter to act in spirit of love and submission to a husband who is beating her?

What do you think of putting the burden on the wife of having a "heavy and humble heart" before she can call 'civil protection if her husband is beating her?

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I think it's absurd to not acknowledge that most women do call the cops with a heavy if not humble heart. That's usually a big step, one that isn't done on a whim. I see no purpose in pretending like this isn't the case.

Despite his sin, the husband is still head of his wife. She is still to submit to his lawful authority. That does not equate putting up with his sinful abuse. It is Biblical for a wife to continue in marriage to her husband until such time as death parts them, he abandons her or there is adultery. Otherwise there is no cause for divorce, we can not be nicer than God.

You guys seem to want some sort of flowery language that hits all the girl power buttons. You're not going to find that in scripture and you have no business expecting it of pastors.

Endeavourer said:

What do you think of Piper waiting all those years to finally let women know that it would be OK with God if she called the cops while being beaten? He refused clarify his comment for years even though he was being severely taken to task.

If you are being beat up, are you responsible to have a heavy and humble heart before defending yourself?



The divorce debate is off topic for this thread.



So it's OK for a woman being abused by her husband to be counseled by a church that is she would submit better her marriage would improve? If her husband continues to abuse her so she needs to flee/separate from him, is it OK for a church to call her under discipline for lack of submission to her 'authority'?

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I have no opinion as to why Piper didn't clarify his now decade old statement for 4 years. Why don't you ask him?

I never said that mere submission would improve a marriage. The husbands sin needs to be dealt with, even if his sin is in response to her behavior.

In the scenario you describe, all parties should be put under discipline if a divorce suit was filed over provable allegations of abuse. To not hold both parties to account for their sin is contrary to Christ's teaching in the passage on the woman caught in adultery.

Redwingfan9 said:

I have no opinion as to why Piper didn't clarify his now decade old statement for 4 years. Why don't you ask him?

I never said that mere submission would improve a marriage. The husbands sin needs to be dealt with, even if his sin is in response to her behavior.

In the scenario you describe, all parties should be put under discipline if a divorce suit was filed over provable allegations of abuse. To not hold both parties to account for their sin is contrary to Christ's teaching in the passage on the woman caught in adultery.

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Just fyi, both parties were not held accountable in the story of the woman caught in adultery. Only the woman was brought forth, which was contrary to the Torah which teaches that both the man and the woman are to be brought forth. Further, there had to be two witnesses. Legally, Messiah could not stone the woman. That was maybe how the Pharisees were trying to "trap Him." The potential witnesses walked off when He wrote some things in the sand. I always wonder if He was writing their sins, maybe even some of them with her. Just sayin'.

Redwingfan9 said:

In the scenario you describe, all parties should be put under discipline if a divorce suit was filed over provable allegations of abuse. To not hold both parties to account for their sin is contrary to Christ's teaching in the passage on the woman caught in adultery.

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This is one of the many reasons I would never put my life or the lives of my family under any kind of pastoral or congregational "authority".

Neostarwcc said:

The thing is, I disagree with just about everything you've said. I've seen many so called "abusive" marriages change and it was all because they DID go to God and go to a Pastor and doing so saved their marriage. It's been said to me before and I will say it again there is NO such thing as a toxic marriage.

Marriage is a unity of a man and a woman and a gift from God it's been that way since God created Adam and Eve.

I've also seen God work miracles in couples who stay together and actually keep their marriage vows that they made to God. To get divorced is to basically say to God "Sorry, we lied when we said we were making a LIFELONG commitment to stay married. And to love and cherish each other all the days of our lives. Through the good and the bad."

Even the most "toxic" of marriages has it's good parts. Yet people don't focus on this, they only focus on the bad because they expect their partners to be perfect.

That's like saying to Christ "Sorry, being a Christian is too hard so I don't want to be a Christian anymore. Even though I said and promised to you that I would make a lifelong commitment to you."

Do you think these kinds of people will escape God's judgement? Of course not! God will judge ALL of us. Both believers and unbelievers and believers will be judged by just how faithful they were to God throughout their lives and for every idle word spoken.

The only reason a good Pastor these days is against divorce is because God himself is against divorce! Christ was QUITE clear on the way God feels about divorce and couples will divorce each other these days just because their partner BREATHES on them funny.

Not to mention *I* was in a abusive marriage! My wife used to beat on me, my wife used to constantly mistreat me and not do her duties as a wife. She would basically just sit on her butt all day and do nothing but play video games. We would CONSTANTLY argue about just about everything and I've done my fair share of abuse to her too by cutting off the power to the house in the middle of the winter because she was playing the sims and not listening to what I had to say, to throwing random objects at her when I was mad, to MANY other horrible things.

Our marriage and dating life were just not... great at all. But even through all of the horribleness there still was good in our relationship or we never would have gotten married in the first place. But, thanks to God's help our marriage has improved. She hasn't hit me for at least 3 years now, we're starting to have productive arguments, I haven't thrown stuff in a long time, my wife is starting to do her daily duties instead of being on the computer all day, and all all in all we're for the most part happily married now. Our marriage is getting better and better with each passing day.

It took 6 years of waiting but my relationship to my wife changed for the better. Why? Because we actually kept our marriage vows and were willing to stick it out for the rest of our lives. I was willing to be abused ...etc and to abuse her ...etc for the rest of my life because I made a promise to God to stay married.

It might sound stupid to you, but I actually CARE about the promises I make to God! When I promised to be a follower of Christ for the rest of my life, I meant it. When I promised to be married to the same woman for the rest of my life no matter HOW bad things got, I meant it. Why? Because, she was God's chosen mate for me. I didn't choose her, GOD chose her! So that should be good enough for me because, God was the one that planned each and every part of my life. Of ALL of our lives.

Besides, a lifetime of abuse is NOTHING compared to what God has in store for us on the other side and what God would have in store for a couple who cared about their commitment to Christ SO much that they were willing to stay married despite all of the horrible things that they did to each other and were willing to focus on the good parts of their marriages instead of the bad.

So I disagree with the thought that abusive people cannot change. It's a problem that they need to go to God and a good pastor for help on, but they CAN change. It's not just me either I've personally seen MANY marriages change for the better because of what God and a good pastor can do.

But, I will admit that there are cases where people CANNOT change and they've been stuck in abusive marriages for many years or even a lifetime. And if they WANT to get divorced, they technically can. But, divorce should be seen as a last option after you've exhausted everything else and you cannot remarry unless you want to be labeled an adulterer by God (Matthew 19:9). You're right though, God did say that if your spouse cheats on you that you can freely remarry without being labeled an adulterer but that's the ONLY reason for a biblical divorce in God's eyes. There literally is NO other reason. To divorce for another reason is something that mankind made up, not God.

One cannot claim to follow Christ and then NOT obey his teachings or only obey the ones that they like! You cannot go through the Bible and say "Well the Bible says Abortion and Homosexuality is wrong but it says good things about other stuff that I agree on so I'll pick and choose those." NO! That's WRONG. You either follow God/the Bible as a whole or do not follow him at all!

You say that men twist scripture verses that tell women to submit to their husbands? What's twisting about what it actually says in scripture? But, it also tells MEN to submit to their wives as well. I'll prove it.

Let's read Ephesians 5:21-33 together.

" Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Be Subject to One Another

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church- for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. "

What is so taken out of context about that? And that's just one Bible verse! It's taught THROUGHOUT the Bible. Some example verses are 1 Peter 3:1-22, 1 Peter 3:7, Genesis 3:16, Proverbs 31:10-15, Hebrews 13:4, Genesis 2:18 ... the list goes on. We're supposed to submit to each other as Christ submitted to us. It's not because women are the inferior sex or because men are supposed to love and respect their wives but because that's how God DESIGNED us from the very beginning! If you do not submit to your husband and if your husband does not submit to you, than you are NOT following God's plan for your life. If you don't like it, take it up with God! God's word has NEVER changed since he gave it to Moses. Christ merely came to FULFILL it (Matthew 5:17) so that we can have a hope of salvation because we were ALL condemned before Christ came. But just because God fulfilled the law does NOT mean that the law and his commandments still technically aren't in effect. It just means that we no longer have to PERFECTLY keep the law and God's commandments.

But it goes both ways too. A husband if he's truly following Christ should love and respect his wife as God commanded and also yes, submit to her as well. It's a two way street.

I'm sorry for going on an hour + long rant but it just angers me when somebody says that they're following God when they're only following the verses that they like and they ignore the other ones completely because APPARENTLY the times have changed. They haven't. It's just that overtime people have become less Godly as Christ's return is getting closer and closer.

But, do NOT view my hour + long rant as me saying that you are not saved. You are. Because we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. You just are not following Christ's teachings and will one day appear before Christ ashamed.

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"there is NO such thing as a toxic marriage"

Obviously this is not true. People turn out to be adulterers, which is toxic.
Some take theological or belief positions that are impossible to resolve. A friend of mine, his wife became a spiritist and believed in talking to the dead. Previously they were a believer, so he divorced them, as he felt this was totally incompatible with being a believer.

The real question is, is there an equivalence to adultery, where the health and hurt caused to ones marriage partner is not regarded, and sexual relations with others is acceptable. Abuse of a wife can descend into a kind of prostitution and slavery, where the partner is so demeaned they feel they cannot survive separate from their partner and have no self belief. If this behaviour was done against another individual who was not their marriage partner it would be regarded as slavery and abuse.

It appears some believe partners own each other, and can do what they like. This goes against the principle of both love and respect one with another. Divorce in terms of the old testament, was not that tough

1 If a man marries a woman and she does not please him because he has found something offensive in her, then he may draw up a divorce document, give it to her, and evict her from his house.
2 When she has left him she may go and become someone else’s wife.
Deuteronomy 24

Jesus who brought love in the heart into focus should not then mean abuse and violence against a partner is ignored and approved of. This is completely the wrong direction to go. Rather because love from the heart is alive, so the marriage should be one of service and care and respect, and nothing else. God bless you