RAPTURE!! OR LEFT BEHIND????

iamlamad

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God can do as He pleases---but He always does what He says He will do and He says what He will do in His word. He fulfills all scripture. Jesus fulfilled all scripture while on earth.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We are to live as though He will come within the next 5 minutes. God always does as He says-
Yes, Paul had it nailed here: the departing MUST come first - the rapture or gathering of the saints: the church must be "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin will be revealed. "Falling away" is simply not a good translation. A significant departing or departure is a much better translation, for Paul is talking about the rapture.
 
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iamlamad

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These are the "just raptured" church. It is the ONLY group that will be this large. All John is telling us is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the globe. This is not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for those days come late in the 70th week: see chapter 15 where the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Note carefully, John has not even started the "trib" or 70th week yet. You won't understand these things with a quick,. "once through" reading. It takes studying to show yourself approved. Note carefully that in chapter 7 John is PRETRIB in his narrative.


Nope---don't believe that. These are the resurrected and the living saved at His 2ns coming. That is what scripture says, you are free to believe in this other stuff all you want. Jesus at the cross is what ended the sacrifices. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years. If you don't have that right, nothing else lines up.
It does not really matter who believes or does not believe: what matters is what the text really says and what the intent of the Author was when it was penned.

First problem with your theory: The rapture will be His 2nd coming. You said that part right - but you imagine His second coming will be His Armageddon coming. Notice carefully: this is chapter 7; Armageddon is chapter 19. There will be a lot of "water over the dam" so to speak between these two chapters - 7 plus years of events.
That is what scripture says OK, show us the scripture, line upon line that you are thinking of.

Jesus at the cross is what ended the sacrifices. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years. If you don't have that right, nothing else lines up.
So you imaging Jesus fulfilled the first half of the 70th week.

Do this: take an apple and eat half of it today; put the other half in the refer until tomorrow. The apple will represent the 70th week. The eaten half will represent Jesus 3.5 years. Over night will represent about 2000 years.

Tomorrow, take out the half and divide that half in half, and see what is left. You will have two quarters left! Not two halves left.

Yet, in Revelation, there are five different mentions of 1260 days. NOT 630 days. Daniel mentions a half week twice also. It takes a WHOLE WEEK divided to end up with two halves. What will divide the week? The event that will stop the daily sacrifices. Read Daniel 8 and see how Antiochus stopped them. In other words, the dividing of the week is future, not past. It will be the abomination that will divide the week.

Did you just overlook the fact that the daily sacrifices continued on after Jesus ascended for another almost 40 years? Read Paul: what is going to stop the daily sacrifices will be when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies and declares He is GOD! The temple will be desecrated and must them be cleanses before sacrifices can resume. This, by the way, is why Antiochus is known as TYPE of the Antichrist: the Antichrist, as the anti-type, will do what Antiochus did: desecrate the new Jewish temple.

Your theory is not new, and has been proven wrong years ago and many times since.

Finally, there is NO BIBLE PROOF that Jesus ministry was 1260 days. No proof it was 42 months, and no proof it was 3.5 years exactly. It is poor bible exegesis.
 
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iamlamad

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Ever really looked at the 144,000? Every Hebrew name has a meaning. The 144,000 are not listed in birth order of the sons of Jacob--only place they aren't. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Ruben, the firstborn, is listed as second, while Judah, the fourth offspring, is listed as the first.

In Genesis 29:32-35, we read, “So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, ‘The LORD has surely looked on my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me.’ Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also.’ And she called his name Simeon. She conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons.’ Therefore his name was called Levi. And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, ‘Now I will praise the LORD.’ Therefore she called his name Judah.” As you continue reading the narrative of each of the births of Jacob’s sons, Rachel and Leah made similar prophetic statements for all 12 of the sons regarding the meanings of their names.
Here are the names of the tribes listed for the 144,000, in the order in which Revelation 7 lists them, and their corresponding Hebrew meanings as found in Scripture:
1.
Judah means
“I will praise the Lord”
2.
Ruben means
“He has looked on me”
3.
Gad means
“Given good fortune”
4.
Asher means
“Happy am I”
5.
Naphtali means
“My wrestling”
6.
Manasseh means
“Making me to forget”
7.
Simeon means
“God hears me”
8.
Levi means
“Joined to me”
9.
Issachar means
“Purchased Me”
10.
Zebulun means
“Dwelling”
11.
Joseph means
“Will add to me”
12.
Benjamin means
“Son of His right hand”

Now here is the amazing part. Notice what happens when you line up these meanings of the names according to the way they appear as listed in Revelation. It forms a very remarkable statement declaring how God saves the church as His bride!
“I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune. I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling and will add to me, the Son of His right hand.” (As in Scripture, the words in italics are supplied for flow of thought.)
These names presented in this order describe a brief story summarizing the church’s struggle, redemption, victory, and ultimate marriage to the Lamb. It seems evident that this is a special message of encouragement for those who are in the Church, believers in Christ, and not necessarily just Jews.

You can imagine this is about the church - but it will not make it true. There are three groups of people in the end times, and scripture about all three: mix them up and your end times doctrine will be messed up. There will be the church, the Jews (Hebrews) and the nations. This passage is concerning the firstfruits of the JEWS and Hebrews. This is a physical blood relationship, not a spiritual thing. Each of these 144,000 will be a descendant of Jacob and a descendant of one of Jacob's sons.

Your "statement" is non-gender - so to speak: it could just as well refer to the Jews as to the church. However, since the names are all Jewish names, that should tell you this is NOT in any way referencing the church.

These names presented in this order describe a brief story summarizing the Jew's struggle.

If they were Gentile Christians, they would be "second-fruits" because at this time the rapture will have taken place.

Finally, the church is mostly a GENTILE church and few members of the church are true descendants of Jacob. Therefore I must disagree with you.
 
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BABerean2

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Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Every born again believer has the choice of living after the flesh or following the Spirit. It is as simple as that. I didn't write this; Paul did.

Where did Paul say those described above are "born-again" believers?

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, you wrote "If you think that merely believing that Jesus will come for you will get you saved..."

If you live like the devil and believe Jesus will come for you---it will get you nothing.
 
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mmksparbud

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You say this because you don't understand when He comes - or that He will come two more times. The truth is, He is coming pretrib FOR His saints, then posttrib WITH His saints. And your statement is simply not true in either coming.

You do know, I hope, that there will be a judgment of the nations AFTER He comes to Armageddon? Who are the sheep? Who are the goats? Both groups will be people very much alive and breathing. Your theory is bogus.

All you have to do is read the scriptures---and not add your own theories.
 
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mmksparbud

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It does not really matter who believes or does not believe: what matters is what the text really says and what the intent of the Author was when it was penned.

First problem with your theory: The rapture will be His 2nd coming. You said that part right - but you imagine His second coming will be His Armageddon coming. Notice carefully: this is chapter 7; Armageddon is chapter 19. There will be a lot of "water over the dam" so to speak between these two chapters - 7 plus years of events.
That is what scripture says OK, show us the scripture, line upon line that you are thinking of.

Jesus at the cross is what ended the sacrifices. His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years. If you don't have that right, nothing else lines up.
So you imaging Jesus fulfilled the first half of the 70th week.

Do this: take an apple and eat half of it today; put the other half in the refer until tomorrow. The apple will represent the 70th week. The eaten half will represent Jesus 3.5 years. Over night will represent about 2000 years.

Tomorrow, take out the half and divide that half in half, and see what is left. You will have two quarters left! Not two halves left.

Yet, in Revelation, there are five different mentions of 1260 days. NOT 630 days. Daniel mentions a half week twice also. It takes a WHOLE WEEK divided to end up with two halves. What will divide the week? The event that will stop the daily sacrifices. Read Daniel 8 and see how Antiochus stopped them. In other words, the dividing of the week is future, not past. It will be the abomination that will divide the week.

Did you just overlook the fact that the daily sacrifices continued on after Jesus ascended for another almost 40 years? Read Paul: what is going to stop the daily sacrifices will be when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies and declares He is GOD! The temple will be desecrated and must them be cleanses before sacrifices can resume. This, by the way, is why Antiochus is known as TYPE of the Antichrist: the Antichrist, as the anti-type, will do what Antiochus did: desecrate the new Jewish temple.

Your theory is not new, and has been proven wrong years ago and many times since.

Finally, there is NO BIBLE PROOF that Jesus ministry was 1260 days. No proof it was 42 months, and no proof it was 3.5 years exactly. It is poor bible exegesis.

I never mentioned Armageddon. That doesn't come until after the 1000 years. None of what I wrote is my theory---it is what the scriptures say--and it has not been proven wrong, you just will continue to believe what you will---and I will continue to believe in what the scriptures say.
And by the way---the sacrifices continued by the priests --- but they were no longer needed and ended at the cross. At the cross is when the sacrifices ended before God---not when the Romans burned down the temple. God rent the veil from top to bottom---end of story. It is God's timing that matters, not man's.
 
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ewq1938

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I never mentioned Armageddon. That doesn't come until after the 1000 years.


Armageddon is before the thousand years according to Rev 19-20. After the thousand years is the Gog Magog army which is defeated at Jerusalem.
 
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mmksparbud

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You can imagine this is about the church - but it will not make it true. There are three groups of people in the end times, and scripture about all three: mix them up and your end times doctrine will be messed up. There will be the church, the Jews (Hebrews) and the nations. This passage is concerning the firstfruits of the JEWS and Hebrews. This is a physical blood relationship, not a spiritual thing. Each of these 144,000 will be a descendant of Jacob and a descendant of one of Jacob's sons.

Your "statement" is non-gender - so to speak: it could just as well refer to the Jews as to the church. However, since the names are all Jewish names, that should tell you this is NOT in any way referencing the church.

These names presented in this order describe a brief story summarizing the Jew's struggle.

If they were Gentile Christians, they would be "second-fruits" because at this time the rapture will have taken place.

Finally, the church is mostly a GENTILE church and few members of the church are true descendants of Jacob. Therefore I must disagree with you.

It is not me you disagree with but scripture.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
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jgr

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This is a physical blood relationship, not a spiritual thing. Each of these 144,000 will be a descendant of Jacob and a descendant of one of Jacob's sons.

How do you propose to identify Jews? Do you carry a portable DNA spit kit?

There are increasing numbers of individuals daily who discover that they are Jews after taking a DNA test.

Any number of them could be part of the 144,000 if that's who you believe comprise the 144,000.

But that point is moot, because your claim that "Each of these 144,000 will be a descendant of Jacob and a descendant of one of Jacob's sons" is fallacious. Revelation 7 states each each group of 12,000 was "of the tribe of...". There is no mention of descendance.

And ancient Israel's tribes were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:12).

God blessed and preserved the faithful and obedient, irrespective of their DNA.

God punished and slew the unfaithful and disobedient, irrespective of their DNA.

Try to refrain from racializing God and His Word.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 
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How do you propose to identify Jews? Do you carry a portable DNA spit kit?

There are increasing numbers of individuals daily who discover that they are Jews after taking a DNA test.

Any number of them could be part of the 144,000 if that's who you believe comprise the 144,000.

But that point is moot, because your claim that "Each of these 144,000 will be a descendant of Jacob and a descendant of one of Jacob's sons" is fallacious. Revelation 7 states each each group of 12,000 was "of the tribe of...". There is no mention of descendance.

And ancient Israel's tribes were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:12).

God blessed and preserved the faithful and obedient, irrespective of their DNA.

God punished and slew the unfaithful and disobedient, irrespective of their DNA.

Try to refrain from racializing God and His Word.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
It borders on blasphemy to suggest that God would need to test to see who was an Israelite.
 
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Berean Tim

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Yes, Paul had it nailed here: the departing MUST come first - the rapture or gathering of the saints: the church must be "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin will be revealed. "Falling away" is simply not a good translation. A significant departing or departure is a much better translation, for Paul is talking about the rapture.
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,

Departure is not a bad translation , but it means a departure from the faith. It's only used one other time in the New Testament Acts 21:21

21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

In verse 1 of 2nd Thess Paul uses "gathering" as Jesus did in Matt 24

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPETand THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Paul is not say the rapture or gathering in verse 1 can not happen until the rapture happens that makes no sense. He's clearly stating the rapture won't happen until "The apostasy" happens.
 
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ewq1938

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Paul is not say the rapture or gathering in verse 1 can not happen until the rapture happens that makes no sense. He's clearly stating the rapture won't happen until "The apostasy" happens.

True.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Since the resurrection only happens at the second coming and that we have the rapture happening AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these two verses decisively prove the pre-trib rapture to be false.
 
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keras

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It borders on blasphemy to suggest that God would need to test to see who was an Israelite.
Right BW, God has hidden His people among the nations, Deuteronomy 4:24 and He has blinded the anthropologists and historians to their true origin. But He knows and He watches them. Amos 9:9

It is absolute nonsense to believe that the Jews, those who call themselves Jews, are still God's chosen people. Matthew 21:43, Revelation 3:9
ONLY faithful Christians, Jew, Gentile, Eskimo, etc, are the 'chosen ones'. John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9
But God does have a secret, because He knows who are the true descendants of Jacob, the ones that Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24.
His mission was successful and the majority of the Christians today, are Israelites both by descent and by faith.
 
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Ricky M

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Firstly i am a believer in the rapture just so that you all know, but believing in such an event and having an expectation of GOING UP and leaving this rotten sin infested world and my FLESH behind is a deep craving within me, and yet my heart still aches for all those that will be LEFT BEHIND that will suffer at the hands of THOSE IN THE WORLD and THE ANTICHRIST and HIS FALSE PROPHET. I desire to leave A LEGACY to THOSE left behind, especially THOSE that are LED here by God, A LEGACY of A SAFE PLACE to SURVIVE the great tribulation. ALL christians that do GO UP in the rapture will take NOTHING with them when THEY are TRANSFORMED from flesh to spirit, so WHY not LEAVE A LEGACY of SORTS for those left behind ESPECIALLY FAMILY and friends. such as BIBLES/ FOOD/WATER/ TRACTS/ or even A MAP of WHERE such THINGS can BE FOUND???? i am sure God must have placed such a dream or vision in THE HEARTS of other believers also????
Maybe convincing you it is for others is the only way God could get you to prepare for yourself..? One thing I find people lack these days is the ability to question"what if im wrong?"
 
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jgr

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It borders on blasphemy to suggest that God would need to test to see who was an Israelite.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

It is blasphemy to suggest that Israelites are an exception.
 
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Biblewriter

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Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

It is blasphemy to suggest that Israelites are an exception.
This is indeed truth, for God said it through Peter,as quoted by Luke.

But one truth of God cannot annul another truth of God. And concerning Paul's "brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites," The Holy Spirit said through Paul,
"Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28

I have already quoted MANY scriptures which EXPLICITLY say that this guilty nation will finally be brought back to its ancient homeland and will there be converted and blessed by God. And there is nt even one scripture, anywhere in the Bible, that even hints that this might nt actually happen.

Your argument is not with me. It is with the almighty God of heaven.
 
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BABerean2

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But one truth of God cannot annul another truth of God. And concerning Paul's "brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites," The Holy Spirit said through Paul,
"Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28


Paul starts Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah. There were those Israelites who worshiped Baal, and another group of 7,000 Israelites who were the faithful "remnant". Paul said there was also a faithful "remnant" during his time in Romans 11:1-5.

Paul ends the chapter in the same way with two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28. There are "they" who are the election, who have accepted Christ, and there is another group of "they" who are the enemies of God, because they have rejected Christ.

You are ignoring what Paul said earlier in the passage in an attempt to create only one group of Israelites.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Do you know the difference between the Baal worshipers and the faithful remnant?

Your argument is against the Apostle Paul...


.
 
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Danoh

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It is not me you disagree with but scripture.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Those passages in Romans 2 are not talking about the same thing as the Galatians 3 passage - Romans 2 is talking about things back during the Law Economy; he is talking about Law keeping Jews who's Law keeping had been mere outward form devoid of any genuine inward faith.

He is talking about Israel's continued rebellion; his point in mentioning Gentiles being that even some Gentiles (these Law keeping Jews had been scattered out amongst) did things from the heart the Law approved of.

Study the history of verse 24...

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

While verse 25 echoes Stephen's summary of his retelling of Israel's long rebellious history in their Law keeping devoid of actual faith...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

In Romans 2 Israel is now Uncircumcision...this is summarized in...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Here that type of Jew is again...

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

That is this...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

While, here is the kind of Gentile Paul is describing during his description of Israel's rebellion under the Law, in Romans 2...

Luke 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. 7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. 7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. 7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: 7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. 7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

Paul does not get to things under Grace until the following...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

2 Tim 2: 15-18.
 
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