Should the world have kept slavery? Why or why not?

Albion said:

you would find accounts so terrifyingly inhuman as to curl your hair. The categorically rosy picture that was painted in the OP here is in error.

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There are also accounts of free people so terrifyingly inhuman that would curl you hair too. Maybe those conditions also don't indicate the whole narrative either.

Norbert L said:

There are also accounts of free people so terrifyingly inhuman that would curl you hair too.

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Which is not the topic of this thread, however.

A Realist said:

The key word here is "property". If the slaves were considered property by law (civic law, not moral), then the slave owner could do pretty much anything they wanted to do with them....beat them, starve them, sell them, kill them.

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. Anyone who’s read the book 12 years a slave would see that slavery in the USA was horrible. The book which was an autobiography was worse than the movie depiction. One of my great great grandmother’s family were slaveowners . She ran away from home because she couldn’t stand the way the slaves were being treated . Picture a Nineteenth century woman doing that . She was married to an American Indian man and my great grandmother was what used to be called a halfbreed

Who says slavery actually ever went away?

You have a federally mandated system that pays a minimum wage and employers that only meet that requirement.

Im not saying that the minimum wage needs to be increased.... thats a bandaid for a bullet wound...simply that slavery didnt really go away, it simply changed, evolved if you will.

RaymondG said:

But who makes these objective standards?

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I thought I stated my position pretty clearly. The principle of self-ownership seems to be a God designed feature of humanity.

Who would you be ok with matter universal standards for you?

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Aren't you assuming a principle of self-ownership in this very question?

If you are for self ownership.....wouldnt that mean that you should allow the OPer to sell himself if he likes?

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I don't think the principle of self ownership is alienable from oneself (I stated this clearly in the last post too). I'm saying you're unable to separate yourself from owning yourself. Because this is an inalienable property, attempts to alienate it require force and violence. Selling oneself into slavery, in the sense that you become the property of another person, requires violence on the part of the slave owner and the person selling themselves. It requires some form of violence since the new "owner" can never really alienate the slave's self-ownership. People are born with the inalienable property of self-ownership as designed by God. Because it's inalienable, attempts to alienate it require continuous force and violence.

In a real sense, it's an illegitimate contract. It violates essential features of a contract for the simple reason that it violates self-ownership. Once owned, a slave has no recourse for contract enforcement, no contractual rights, and no method of termination (otherwise, the person has retained self-ownership and isn't in fact a slave).

One additional note is the self-defeating nature of the act itself as it assumes a general principle of self-ownership in order to deny self-ownership. It requires a continuous voluntary act of wills, which presumes self-ownership throughout the enslavement.

Wouldnt you prohibiting this be taking some of his ownership away and giving it to yourself?

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No, I would simply be acknowledging his inalienable property of self-ownership.

Yes I was only referring to actions that does no harm to anyone else. I did not see the OPers selling himself into slavery as harming anyone else.

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Well, it requires the owner to try to violate the principle of self-ownership. Harm to another person is baked into the cake and is a feature of the arrangement. It requires the owner to do some form of harm on the slave; at a minimum, a violation of their self-ownership.

However, trying to make slavery universal, to affect those who do not want it, could be harmful.......similar to your preventing the OPer from doing so, if he so desires it.

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I think disavowing self-ownership as you do is harmful to everyone, including the person that tries selling themselves into slavery

Toro said:

Who says slavery actually ever went away?

You have a federally mandated system that pays a minimum wage and employers that only meet that requirement.

Im not saying that the minimum wage needs to be increased.... thats a bandaid for a bullet wound...simply that slavery didnt really go away, it simply changed, evolved if you will.

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If you're gonna go that route, everyone is and will always be a "slave" to something.

This is a tired, old argument that takes away from the real meaning of "slave" when you're speaking of involuntary servitude.

Toro said:

Who says slavery actually ever went away?

You have a federally mandated system that pays a minimum wage and employers that only meet that requirement.

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If you are free to walk away from such a job, it's not slavery.

Light of the East said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You don't even realize that you are owned right now, do you!!!!!

The BANK owns you.
Your CREDIT CARDS own you.
Your JOB owns you.
Your COUNTRY and the lying politicians running it definitely own you.

You (and I) are so owned it ain't funny!!!!

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Yes, because at any moment the people from MasterCard or the bank could up and sell your kids or spouse or family members without you knowledge or consent. And clearly holding down a job that has regulated employee rights and you can quit at any time is *exactly* the same as working an unregulated number of hours for no money and with the promise of being beaten/sold/physically punished/killed for underperforming under said unregulated conditions.

Albion said:

If you are free to walk away from such a job, it's not slavery.

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Or if you get paid, or if your hours are regulated, or if your family can’t be sold by your employer, or if your employer doesn’t beat you, or if you can’t be sold to another employer, or if your employer doesn’t force you to stay within their boundaries, or...

Albion said:

If you are free to walk away from such a job, it's not slavery.

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Again, not in the direct sense, but as I said, its the evolution of it.

A Realist said:

If you're gonna go that route, everyone is and will always be a "slave" to something.

This is a tired, old argument that takes away from the real meaning of "slave" when you're speaking of involuntary servitude.

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Jesus said we can not serve two masters, so yes.

Everyone is a slave to something, either to flesh, self, money.... etc.

Even the saved are to be as slaves to righteousness.

Toro said:

Again, not in the direct sense, but as I said, its the evolution of it.

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No, it isn't. In fact, it trivializes slavery to talk as though experiencing anything that isn't just as good as we think we deserve puts us into "slavery."

Consensual enslavement is not appropriate because it violates the will and makes it subject to another’s and must be continually suppressed in deference to theirs.

Rendering the individual your Lord and Master and creating an idolatrous bond that will inevitably supplant the LORD in their mind and heart.

We shall have no other Gods before Him.

Albion said:

No, it isn't. In fact, it trivializes slavery to talk as though experiencing anything that isn't just as good as we think we deserve puts us into "slavery."

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I didnt say anything whatsoever as to "having it as good as we deserve" you assume as such.

All I claimed is that minimum wage work is the evolution of slavery.

You attempt to put the rest of your assumptions as words or implications I never stated,.

Thats YOUR assumption, not my problem.

In other words, the problem never actually went away, it just changed.

Toro said:

All I claimed is that minimum wage work is the evolution of slavery.

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And that's all it is.....your claim.

A Realist said:

And that's all it is.....your claim.

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Yep, unlike others Im not putting words in other peoples mouths... so yes.. MY claim, never stated it as yours.

Toro said:

so yes.. MY claim, never stated it as yours.

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and yes.....a claim that it totally unrelated to slavery as described in the OP.

If you say so... ..

Toro said:

I didnt say anything whatsoever as to "having it as good as we deserve" you assume as such.

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I didn't assume anything. I was responding to several comments made by other posters.

All I claimed is that minimum wage work is the evolution of slavery.

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Which it isn't.

Wow lots of putting assumptions on others in this thread.

I see the same thing as Toro just described, heck I saw this in my late teens and really began to notice it in my early 20’s.

I guess some are unwilling to “see” this happening over the years. Just as eras come and pass, so too does the system “evolve” as he has explained. All according to scripture for the coming mark of the beast. How does anyone not see this?