Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?

Is confession of sin necessary for salvation?


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1 John 1:9 is the same as Acts of the Apostles 2:38.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is in reference to Peter telling the unsaved Jews to repent and accept Christ.
John is not telling the unsaved to repent like in Acts of the Apostles 2:38.
John is talking to saved brethren in 1st John because he tells the brethren (little children) that they know the father.

"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father." (1 John 2:13).

When John refers to "we" in 1 John 1:9 he is telling already saved believers (himself and the brethren he is writing to) that the way to deal with sin if they happen to sin is to confess of it so as to be forgiven.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is in reference to Peter telling the unsaved Jews to repent and accept Christ.
John is not telling the unsaved to repent like in Acts of the Apostles 2:38.
John is talking to saved brethren in 1st John because he tells the brethren that they know the father.

"I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father." (1 John 2:13).

Yes, John is referring to being cleansed of all sin. That is to become a Christian. We are not expected to keep sinning as you erroneously seem to think. It fits with true repentance of Acts 2:38 where we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit - the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9
 
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Yes, John is referring to being cleansed of all sin. That is to become a Christian. We are not expected to keep sinning as you erroneously seem to think. It fits with true repentance of Acts 2:38 where we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit - the seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9

While you can read 1 John 1:9 in such a way as referring exclusively to initial salvation, reading 1 John 2 refutes this kind of thinking. It says, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2).

1. He tells the brethren to sin not.
2. If any man sin (talking to the brethren), they have an advocate.
3. He is the propitiation for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

This is saying that Christ is our advocate.
This is what Scripture means when we are to boldly come before the throne of grace.
 
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CharismaticLady

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While you can read 1 John 1:9 in such a way as referring to initial salvation, reading 1 John 2 refutes this kind of thinking. It says, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2).

1. He tells the brethren to sin not.
2. If any man sin (talking to the brethren), they have an advocate.
3. He is the propitiation for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

This is saying that Christ is our advocate.
This is what Scripture means when we are to boldly come before the throne of grace.

You just quoted it. What is the purpose - to sin not! Christ being our Advocate is linked to 1 John 1:7, not 1 John 1:9. Notice no confession...
 
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You just quoted it. What is the purpose - to sin not! Christ being our Advocate is linked to 1 John 1:7, not 1 John 1:9. Notice no confession...

Who is the identity of the word "man" in 1 John 2:1?
Who is the "we" in this sentence?

"And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father," (1 John 2:1).
 
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CharismaticLady

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Who is the identity of the word "man" in 1 John 2:1?
Who is the "we" in this sentence?

"And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father," (1 John 2:1).

I've got news for you, John is talking to his little children, Christians. Jesus is not a Christian's Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness. He is our Advocate for our faults as we walk in the Spirit. No MAN is cleansed of their sins without true repentance. Are you a Universalist?

What is missing from 1 John 2:1 is confession.
 
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CharismaticLady

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It's almost 2 am. Just know that no apostle teaches we will always sin. Is that what you've been taught? It seems to be. They teach that Jesus takes away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. All apostles teach that after repentance, to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

What you are teaching is the Doctrine of Defeatism, a doctrine of demons, not victory in Christ.

Good night. Read 1 John 3. Also Romans 6 and 8.
 
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packermann

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I see justification as the moment we are cleansed of all our past sin, and at that point we are set apart/sanctified for good works going forward. So they are back to back. Justification looking back, and sanctification looking forward. I do not see sanctification as a process of getting any cleaner than when ALL our sin was taken away at justification.

But the Bible uses past, present, and future tenses on both justification and sanctification.

Here are a few verses that use past, present and future tenses for justification.

Past
Romans 4:2: For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Present
Romans 3:28: For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Future
Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:16: Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness? (Greek word is dikaiosunen which is “justification”)

Yes, the Old Testament shows us that God puts sin into two categories. Did you know that there were no sacrifices for sins against any of the Ten Commandments?

With all due respect, the argument from silence is a very weak argument. For instance, the Bible does not record that Peter and Paul were ever martyred. Should we then conclude that they were not martyred?


They were truly sins unto death - they stoned them to death. Those would truly be mortal sins.

There was a heresy in the early centuries called Montanism, which taught that mortal sins can never be forgiven. But this idea seems to go against the teachings of Jesus. He said "And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." (Matt 12:31, 32). So ANY sin, whether it is intentional or not, can be forgiven, as long as it is not the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Even David did not get off scot-free. God took his new-born son, so there was death.

David himself did not die. There was forgiveness but not total forgiveness. This seems to fall more in line with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. We can be ultimately forgiven but still may have to experience temporal punishment. If a boy breaks a window, the father does not throw him out of the house and disown him. But the father may ground him for two weeks.


Unintentional trespasses did have a sacrifice. Numbers 15:22-36 shows that sacrifice, then goes on to verse 36 showing them killing a man who broke the Sabbath.

Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist? If not, then you are not keeping the Sabbath. Does that not mean that you are not able to be saved? Does that mean all of us who keep the first day of the week as our day of rest are going to hell. The command to honor the Sabbath is very clear in the Old Testament. The Sabbath is the SEVENTH day, not the FIRST day of the week. God did not rest on the first day of the week.

So does that mean that every Christian who intentionally did not rest on Saturday is going to hell and there is nothing that person can do to change that?

BTW, I as a Catholic, rest on Sunday, the first day of the week, although there is no clear teaching in the New Testament that the Sabbath has changed from Saturday to Sunday. I do in because the Catholic Church says I can. But since a Protestant believes in sola scriptura, I am curious how he justifies himself in worshipping God on Sunday instead of Saturday, when there is nothing in scripture that justifies this switch.
 
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Danthemailman

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Guilt by association is not always true.
We both agree that the Trinity is true. But just because Catholics believe in the Trinity, does not mean the Trinity is not true.
There is big difference between believing in the Trinity, which is Biblical and believing in works salvation, which is UN-Biblical, yet that doesn't seem to concern you? :astonished: It doesn't seem to concern Roman Catholics and Mormons either.

The ultimate determination of truth is by God's Word. So please make your case by exclusively using the Bible alone.
It's God's Word that makes my case that from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf and seeking forgiveness with Him.
Amen! Now if you only truly believed that.

But it does not stop there.
Here it comes. I don't have time to respond to these multitude of scriptures in your post, but will address the main points.

True faith is shown by works (James 2:18).
Yes, shown but not established.

In fact, the Bible talks about the Sanctification Process.
The Sanctification process is not about ultimately being saved by works.

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means to continually work to bring something to completion. We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).
Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. *Contrast between believers and unbelievers.

"Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:15-16).
In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well. *If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;" (Hebrews 12:14-15).
In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Apparently, you misinterpret this verse to mean that it's your personal holiness that will cause you to see the Lord - "Holier than thou." Now to be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy."

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - falls short of the grace of God. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. *No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to obtain it.

I could keep going on but this should suffice.
You could keep going and twist the scriptures to teach works salvation and loss of salvation, but none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. I heard it all before, prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. Same scriptures, same arguments.

Eternal Security Proponents cannot explain James 2:24 properly.
I already have. Works-salvation/eternal IN-secure proponents fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture (Romans 4:2-3; James 2:24) in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

They want the word "justified" to be split in it having two different meanings.
The word "justified" does have multiple meanings, as I already shared with you in post #125.

James 2:24 uses the word "justified" in relation to both works and faith. Surely the Eternal Security Proponent believes they are justified by faith as a part of salvation, but they are not being consistent with James 2:24 when they change the word "justified" in James 2:24 in relation to works.
*James is talking about works. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). You just can't seem to get that through your head. Believers are justified/accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 5:2-6) and justified/shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21,24) Simple! :)
 
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Danthemailman

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Besides, Jesus already told us about how the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. But Eternal Security Proponents have to re-write the words of Jesus and say that He was teaching Old Covenant and it was all a part of the point how no man can live according to a righteous standard and thus they just need to believe in Him for salvation. Sorry, that is not the point of the parable and neither was there any sermon or added words explaining that was the final conclusion to His teachings during His earthly ministry.
In regards to that parable, the talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degrees. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he was saved.

*Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved.
*Isaiah 43:10 - You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen..
*Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Sorry. I don't believe anyone has grown up in bible times to truly know biblical Greek as if it was their own native tongue of English. This is why I encourage all to just read and believe their Bible plainly in the English. That is the Word by which we all will be held accountable by. God is not going to hold us accountable to some dead language that we cannot know with 100% certainty. We are only guessing as to what a dead language says.
You sound like a lawyer.

Okay. You are not teaching me anything new with this verse. I already have known for a long time that our words reveal the conditions of our hearts by this verse. The problem is that it does not help your belief in any way but it only seeks to destroy it.
It helps my belief and does not seek to destroy it. You just don't get it.

In Eternal Security, you can say something bad on occasion (or in Hardcore Eternal Security, you can swear all the time), and you are still saved and you are not condemned.
Typical straw man argument. :rolleyes:

I understand what you are trying to do here. You are attempting to point out how the word "justified" does not always relate to salvation as proof that James 2:24 is not talking in relation to salvation. First, just skip back chapter and read James 1:12, James 1:21-22, and James 1:26-27. It is focused on right actions. James 1:12, and James 1:21 are focused on obedience as a part of eternal life. Second, the word "justified" is related to faith. Surely you are not going to say that "being justified by faith" does not relate to salvation.
We show our faith by right actions/obedience, yet we are not saved based on the merits of these actions/works. You can't seem to figure that out. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

You want to make works or holy living (whatever that looks like) where it is automatic and forced upon the believer because they made a one time decision for Christ. That a true genuine faith will always (without fail) produce works and they will be in God's Kingdom one day.
You want to make works and holy living an extremely difficult burden that only a few elite saints will do (including yourself) and the rest will fail and lose their salvation, which stems from self righteousness. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

But that's not the reality the Bible teaches.
Works-salvationists typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture, as demonstrated by you below.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "we have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. *See Hebrews 4:2-3. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? *Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.


"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).
Only genuine believers endure temptation, endure to the end, are faithful unto death. Only believers are victorious in Christ.

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).
1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
Keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We are told to:
  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
And those who don't? I'm reminded of John 8:31 - If you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. Those who don't continue were NOT TRULY His disciples. (John 6:64-66; 8:32-59)

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God. This isn't about individuals losing salvation, as you want to believe. Romans 11:24 - For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Pure fantasy.
Your works based false gospel is pure self righteous fantasy. *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. :oldthumbsup:(Romans 3:24-28)

1 John 1:7 says you need to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of all sin. The Bible clearly says anyone who does not hear the words of Jesus will be destroyed.
Already explained in post #84. Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?
 
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Danthemailman

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Of course says me. You proposed a false dichotomy which I clearly pointed out to you. You did not give a counter reply to me exposing your logical fallacy. If you want to stay with your logical fallacy you are free to do so.
Once again, I made my points using scripture and not a false dichotomy. Your arguments (along with your arrogance) has been exposed.

You believe what you will despite Scripture which is your prerogative.
Oh the IRONY.

The verse states "no one." No one means "every one" including believers.
No one who is born of God practices sin means those who are born of God DO NOT PRACTICE SIN. Yet you say there are those who are born of God that do practice sin and lose their salvation. John DID NOT say that, but if you want to stick with that fallacy you are free to do so. I will believe John.

Believers don't get a free pass.
Nobody said anything about a free pass or a license to sin etc..

Moreover a couple of verses earlier in v.7 John makes it clear that he is addressing believers as he uses the term "little children" - used exclusively for believers only - never unbelievers.
I already thoroughly explained this in post #84. :oldthumbsup:

Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?

As you may know context is key. Comparing some verses which refer to physical death and some verses which refer to spiritual death is poor hermeneutics and amounts to eisegesis. Stick to the texts in discussion.
Context is key, yet death may refer to spiritual death or physical death. It all depends on the context, which is not poor hermeneutics and does not amount to eisegesis.

As you pointed out, Rom 8:1 does indeed refer to believers. However there is a clause in v.1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (NKJV) No condemnation only applies to those believers who choose to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.
Again, you are adding your own personal commentary to Romans 8:1. "Who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" is "descriptive" of those who are "in Christ Jesus." Paul did not say that these believers do not walk according to the Spirit.

If you don't heed v.1 then Paul reinforces his point in v.4 which reads "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Thus according to vs. 1 & 4, believers are not condemned if they walk according to the Spirit. And conversely, believers are condemned if they walk according to the Spirit.
Believers are condemned if they walk according to the Spirit? :doh:You mean according to the flesh. Again, Paul said who do not walk according to the flesh. There is no implication of believers here not walking according to the Spirit and being condemned. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you are not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit? Sinless perfection?

Paul again reinforces his point in v.13 which reads "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Therefore your claim that this passage is a contrast between believers and unbelievers is unfounded as Paul emphasizes otherwise, not once, not twice, but three times. You can choose to ignore all three warnings.
It's a warning to unbelievers/those who walk according to the flesh. *Stop ignoring Romans 8:8-11.

No, read what it plainly states. As I pointed out earlier, John is addressing "little children" which is used exclusively to refer to believers. He wrote: Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed, so that He might destroy the works of the devil. (BLB) Thus the little child/believing one is the one whose lifestyle is characterized by practicing righteousness/obedience to God. Conversely, the little child/believing one whose lifestyle is characterized by practicing sin is of the devil. Thus the child of God is no longer a child of God because he/she practices sin and is of the devil.
Just because this letter is addressed to "little children" does not mean that everyone being addressed in the letter is a child of God. "The one practicing sin is of the devil" is not a child of God! Don't be so naive. Paul makes a clear contrast between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:7-10.

Did you not read what I wrote?? I turned your argument around on it's face using your same logic which devastates your argument.
Yes, I read what you wrote and you did no such thing. Get over yourself.

Your claim is that the word "among" as used in Js 5:19 refers to unbelievers thus the death of the soul in v.20 applies to unbelievers; not believers. I plainly pointed out to you that your same English translations also use the word among in Js 5:13,14 which you totally ignore.
I did not totally ignore what you said in James 5:13,14 which does not change a thing. *I find it interesting that you tried to discredit the word "among" in James 5:19,20 by saying that "among" need not be in the text and is not in the text in some translations, yet later you back peddle and point out that the word "among" is in James 5:13,14 as if that changes everything in regards to James 5:19,20. :rolleyes:

Vs 13-14 clearly show that "among" refers to believers - not unbelievers - so in proper context how can you possibly claim that v.19 suddenly refers to unbelievers??
Not necessarily and even if vs. 19 was referring to believers, the death in that case would be physical, not spiritual, as I already throughly explained in posts #26 and #81. :oldthumbsup:

That is totally out of context. Yet you ignore the text in order to cling to your doctrine which is of course your prerogative.
You are the master of IRONY.
 
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I've got news for you, John is talking to his little children, Christians. Jesus is not a Christian's Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness. He is our Advocate for our faults as we walk in the Spirit. No MAN is cleansed of their sins without true repentance. Are you a Universalist?

What is missing from 1 John 2:1 is confession.

First, David was a saved believer (Who fought Goliath by God's power when he was young) and he later in life confessed of his sins to God when he was an adult as king. So I am not sure why you think things have changed. Second, you did not answer the questions. Is the word "man" in reference to believers in 1 John 2:1? Is the word "we" in reference to believers in 1 John 2:1? If so, then John is saying WE (BELIEVERS) have an advocate if we believers happen to fall into some kind of sin. John is telling us BELIEVERS to "sin not" and not unbelievers. 1 John 2:2 says Jesus is the propitiation not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. This means that Jesus is not only our advocate (i.e. A believer's advocate), but Jesus is an advocate (for a person to confess their sins to) for those of the whole world. Everyone can come to Him to confess sin. That is what it is saying.

John is not saying that we will ALWAYS sin. That is not what he is saying. He is saying that if we happen to stumble on rare occasion into sin, we have an advocate. He is the propitiation not only for our sins, but the sins of the entire world. It makes no sense for John to refer to initial salvation in confession of sin or in Jesus being our advocate because John distinguishes the difference between Jesus being the propitiation for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world.
 
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It's almost 2 am. Just know that no apostle teaches we will always sin. Is that what you've been taught? It seems to be. They teach that Jesus takes away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. All apostles teach that after repentance, to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

What you are teaching is the Doctrine of Defeatism, a doctrine of demons, not victory in Christ.

Good night. Read 1 John 3. Also Romans 6 and 8.

I am not saying that the apostles taught that all believers will always commit grievous sin. I believe the 144,000, Zacharias, Elisabeth, and Enoch were proof of saints who were able to overcome sin within their lives. But the apostles do realize that some believers can sin whereby they would need forgiveness via by confession of their sins to Jesus (Which then leads to them properly forsaking sin).
 
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I said: "Yes, the Old Testament shows us that God puts sin into two categories. Did you know that there were no sacrifices for sins against any of the Ten Commandments?

Then you said:

With all due respect, the argument from silence is a very weak argument.

An argument from silence. What silence? The Old Testament screams it. My statement should have been enough for anyone's interest in knowledge to dig it out for themselves. If you think this is just a debate, and not reasoning together, you found the wrong person to debate with. I've already done my digging. It is profitable for you to do your own.

I'm going for coffeeeeeeeeee.
 
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People get confused and believe "confession" is about sins they commit as a Christian. NO! It is to BECOME a Christian! It is when you are justified and ALL your sins are taken away and forgiven. Then Jesus gives you His Spirit and makes you born again of the Spirit, and you are then sanctified - another word that is misunderstood. They think sanctification is a life long process of overcoming sin. NO! As soon as you are given the Spirit your nature become the divine nature that hates sin and loves righteousness.

We will commit trespasses against each other unwittingly, but as we forgive others their trespasses against us, the Father forgives us our trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
I don’t think you’ve made your case.

The verse in Matthew is telling us that God commands us to forgive each other as He has forgiven us.
 
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I am not saying that the apostles taught that all believers will always commit grievous sin. I believe the 144,000, Zacharias, Elisabeth, and Enoch were proof of saints who were able to overcome sin within their lives. But the apostles do realize that some believers can sin whereby they would need forgiveness via by confession of their sins to Jesus (Which then leads to them properly forsaking sin).

When Christians like the Corinthians and the Galatians weren't maturing, but rather were literally going backwards back into carnality, Paul was extremely hard on them and didn't mince words. They were losing the race to eternal life. (This reminds me of me for the first 30 years of going to church. No power. But when I finally truly repented, Jesus spoke to me for the first time in my life. I was in awe, it was so clear and wonderful. Then He baptized me in the Holy Spirit and I was literally born again with the divine nature. Overnight all my desires of a wolf became that of a lamb. I loved what God loved, and hated what God hated. In an instant I overcame willful sin, never to willfully sin again. That now was the life of a Christian I've been trying to tell you about. For those first 30 years of no power over sin, of course, I would have to keep repenting because I couldn't stop sinning. But that was because I wasn't saved! This is why Jesus said "You must be born again! What you are describing are Christians in name only going straight to hell. What I'm describing are born of God Christians!)

2 Corinthians 7:
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

If the Corinthians had just been left alone without Paul bringing them back, the whole Corinthian Church would have gone back to perdition and been damned. They had left being a Christian altogether. But they finally repented and were saved. Now they could live the life of the Spirit of life in Christ.

Galatians 4:
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Galatians 5:
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I said: "Yes, the Old Testament shows us that God puts sin into two categories. Did you know that there were no sacrifices for sins against any of the Ten Commandments?
.
What are the Old Testament verses that support this?

I’m not aware of them. Please share
 
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There is big difference between believing in the Trinity, which is Biblical and believing in works salvation, which is UN-Biblical, yet that doesn't seem to concern you? :astonished: It doesn't seem to concern Roman Catholics and Mormons either.

It's God's Word that makes my case that from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Amen! Now if you only truly believed that.

Here it comes. I don't have time to respond to these multitude of scriptures in your post, but will address the main points.

Yes, shown but not established.

The Sanctification process is not about ultimately being saved by works.

Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means to continually work to bring something to completion. We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. *Contrast between believers and unbelievers.

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well. *If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Apparently, you misinterpret this verse to mean that it's your personal holiness that will cause you to see the Lord - "Holier than thou." Now to be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy."

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - falls short of the grace of God. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. *No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to obtain it.

You could keep going and twist the scriptures to teach works salvation and loss of salvation, but none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. I heard it all before, prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. Same scriptures, same arguments.

I already have. Works-salvation/eternal IN-secure proponents fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture (Romans 4:2-3; James 2:24) in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

The word "justified" does have multiple meanings, as I already shared with you in post #125.

*James is talking about works. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). You just can't seem to get that through your head. Believers are justified/accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 5:2-6) and justified/shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21,24) Simple! :)

While I am more than capable of going back and forth with you until the end our lives on this issue or point here within this thread, I do not think it is needed. What I have said is enough to convince anyone who is honestly seeking the truth on this matter with God's Word.

So good day to you in the Lord today, dear sir;
And let's agree to disagree.
For I am confident that God's truth will prevail.
For I may plant seeds, and another may water, but it is GOD who gives the increase.
God's Word will not return void.

Please be well.

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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When Christians like the Corinthians and the Galatians weren't maturing, but rather were literally going backwards back into carnality, Paul was extremely hard on them and didn't mince words. They were losing the race to eternal life. (This reminds me of me for the first 30 years of going to church. No power. But when I finally truly repented, Jesus spoke to me for the first time in my life. I was in awe, it was so clear and wonderful. Then He baptized me in the Holy Spirit and I was literally born again with the divine nature. Overnight all my desires of a wolf became that of a lamb. I loved what God loved, and hated what God hated. In an instant I overcame willful sin, never to willfully sin again. That now was the life of a Christian I've been trying to tell you about. For those first 30 years of no power over sin, of course, I would have to keep repenting because I couldn't stop sinning. But that was because I wasn't saved! This is why Jesus said "You must be born again! What you are describing are Christians in name only going straight to hell. What I'm describing are born of God Christians!)

2 Corinthians 7:
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

If the Corinthians had just been left alone without Paul bringing them back, the whole Corinthian Church would have gone back to perdition and been damned. They had left being a Christian altogether. But they finally repented and were saved. Now they could live the life of the Spirit of life in Christ.

Galatians 4:
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Galatians 5:
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Those Galatians Christians who attempted to later be justified by the Old Law (via by "Circumcsion Salvationism) had fallen from grace. You cannot fall from something you never had. Those Galatian Christians who thought circumcision was needed for salvation had fallen from grace. It is not that they were never born again beforehand. That is why those who argue for OSAS don't make any sense (Not that you believe in OSAS). My point here is that Christians can fall from grace. But how do they return? By confession of sin. James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son show that a believer can be restored back to saving faith after having lost it.

Again, David confessed of his sins in Psalms 51 in order to be forgiven of his sins. David was a man of God even as a child. He took down Goliath by God's power. He had favor with God before he killed and committed adultery as an adult king. My point here is not that Christians will always sin. I believe they can overcome grievous sin. My point here is that believers do have an advocate if they do happen to stumble into sin within their life.
 
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I don’t think you’ve made your case.

The verse in Matthew is telling us that God commands us to forgive each other as He has forgiven us.

Hey girl!

You may see it like "sin is sin" and it doesn't matter if someone murder's your child and shows no remorse, you must forgive them, or you are going to hell. Not even God forgives sins of lawlessness without true repentance.

But Matthew 6:14-15 uses the word trespass, as in a debt owed. And the definition of a trespass in unintentionally committed. Huge difference. This is what is referred to:

Matthew 5:
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
 
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