Question for Sabbatarians
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pasifika
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Jesus Christ is the manifestation of what the law testify or in other words He is the Righteousness of God in the flesh Romans 3:21-23....the law and the Prophets testify of Him, that is the entire Old Testament..
Philippians 3:5...Paul is illustrated to those who think they have more Righteousness in their own eyes by following the law...according to Paul own words he was faultless, circumsed on the eighth day, a Hebrews, an Israelite..etc these are the things he put his confidence on...
But then.....he said in verse 7-9, that all these things he consider loss for the sake of the surpassing knowledge of Christ Jesus his Lord..
Verse 8-9..." What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage that I may gain Christ...
There is nothing wrong with what the law requires but because our flesh is rule by sin...also these requirements are Not for a particular people (physical Israel )but for All people(spiritual Israel )..is Not outwardly But Inwardly...
Eg;
- circumcision is inward... (circumcision of heart by Spirit..Romans 2:28-29
- A person is a Jew inwardly (Romans 2:29), (Romans 4:16-17)
- Baptism by the Spirit through the Word that we can have clear conscience towards God (Ephesians 5:26,27...1 Peter 3: 21)
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pasifika
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Yes if you owe anyone you must repay your debt...but also the debt of loving others which is the debt we pay to God, as He commanded us....
As Romans 13: 9,10..."The commandments, "You shall not commit Adultery,
"You shall Not murder,"
"You shall Not steal",
"You shall Not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this ONE COMMAND: LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Love does NO harm to a Neighbor. Therefore Love is the fulfillment of the law....
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Matthew ten Verseight
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Ah, the good ol' heretical bible.ca in matters of law and grace.
I remember that website, the first time someone handed to me the so-called 85 questions sabbatarians can't answer when first hearing about the 7th day in Exo. 20:8-11. I asked a Russian baptist friend what he thought, and he directed me to those very same 'questions' (some aren't even questions, and others so poorly worded as to be silly), and I did not quite know what to do. I went upon my knees and asked God for truth. I went through every single one of those so-called questions with Bible in hand and prayer upon my heart, and found they all have answers proving that the 7th day sabbath of the LORD is permanent and for all humanity and especailly for those professing to be Christians; and so it was that very list and study that caused me to believe the scripture in regards the 7th day. The devil meant my fall, but God took that and caused me to overcome through it. I rejoice even now!
Question 1 has several false apriori (or assumptions) built in.
Lev_3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
Blood (and fat) are still forbidden to be eaten even in the NT texts even among Gentiles, see Acts 15:20,29, 21:25, to begin with.
There is nothing ceremonial or temporary about it, since such command, existed from Eden, Gen. 4:4, even of which Noah understood, Gen. 8:21, 9:4-5
A person might say, that is not one of the Ten Commandments. But that would be a mistake, since every commandment of God falls under those Ten, for to eat blood is to dishonour our Father in Heaven, thus breaking every single one of the Ten Commandments as James states:
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
So, to even transgress the 4th commandment, transgresses all the others.
Additionally, the Sabbath is the only commandment, that deals with "time", and thus "generations".
His eternal covenant, His word, is unto a 'thousand generations':
Psa_105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
1Ch_16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Just because the Bible uses the phrase, "throughout your generations" doesn't imply temporary in the least, and is in fact an added false apriori by the 'questioner'.
Gen_9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
As for being only for "the Jews", the sabbath commandment itself states that the 7th day is the "sabbath of the LORD thy God" (unless He isn't your God), Exo. 20:8-11.
Mark 2:27, declares in plain English, that the sabbath was made (creation) for man(kind), not just Jew, which (Jew) didn't even exist yet in Genesis 1-2, and in vs 28 declares again in plain English that Jesus is (present tense) also the Lord of the Sabbath, even as He is Lord over all.
Also, in Exodus 16, the sabbath was for all humanity there, Jew and those of the mixed multitude (Exo .12:38; Egyptian, Nubian, Midian, etc).
Also, in matters of that which is in the OT, see Jesus:
Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Heaven and earth have not yet passed, and not all is fulfilled.
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1. Nothing about that statement in the actual Bible says "temporary" or "ceremonial only for Jews". I think we all may be able to agree on that point.
2. This is a Bible detail so obvious that all major Christian denominations agree - the TEN are part of the moral law of God written on the heart (see the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19 and the Catholic Catechism on the TEN Commandments... etc)
3. Isaiah 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping.
4. In the NT we see gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13, 17 and 18
5. in Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".
although we all can agree not to pit creative writing and extreme speculation - against the plain teaching of scripture, the question of how we understand these texts is still interesting.
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It is quite obvious you do not know what you are talking about. You and your church make it a point to separate laws dealing with morality and call them moral laws, ceremonial laws, etc. The old covenant, for the Israelites only, ten commandments did contain 9 laws dealing with morality and one law dealing with a ritual or ceremony. Paul called those 10 laws the ministry of death and that they were transitory or temporary. If they were only temporary commands then they certainly are not what is written on our hearts. There is not one word in all of the ten that indicates any of them are commands to love. If you and your Baptist friends, that you quote in your posts, believe that the 10 are what is written on our hearts then we don't have to love others as Jesus loves us and all of Paul's admonition to Christians in Gal 5 is for naught.
Jesus love commands are what is written on my heart.
My heart never led me to observe the Sabbath. It was my lack of Biblical knowledge that did that trick.
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seriously???
Hint that is what the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the Catholic Catechism say about the 10 Comm as included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.. you knew that.
Why then are you calling it all "you and your church" in addressing me?? What is up with that?
For my part - I prefer factual details
The command "do not take God's name in vain" that we find in the TEN Commandments is included in the moral law of God as the denominations affiliated with those statements of faith all affirm. I freely admit that.
That command is in both the OC and the NC where the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33.
what ??????
I think we can all see that.
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mmksparbud
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And your statement shows you do not know scripture---for it was God Himself who separated those laws. The 10, written by His own hand on stone, were kept in the ark, of which it is a copy of the heavenly which is still in heaven with that testimony. The ceremonial laws, God dictated to Moses and he wrote them on parchment and they were kept outside the ark. He clearly made a difference.
Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
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Oh, I don't know scripture? I know enough scripture that I don't have to depend on a false prophet to interpret it for me. I wonder why God had Moses write the two greatest commands in the book of the law where according to you they were lesser laws because they didn't get written with the finger of God? SDAs cull 603 laws because they are not part of the 10 commandments. Well, let me tell you that the people God gave those laws to, treated all of those laws as equal.
I believe your prophet said that the what you refer to as ceremonial laws were nailed to the Cross. If this is so then how could the SDA church make an issue out of eating some food? Why does the SDA church use the tithing laws from the nailed to the Cross laws and quote Old Testament scripture to back up the threat that if you don't tithe you will lose your eternal inheritance?
Could it be that it is you that should study up on scripture?
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mmksparbud
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And no kind of prophet is required to read the bible. It is pretty self explanatory. I have not mentioned any prophet--I am going by the bible---I suggest you do the same. Did God write the 10 commandments on stone with His own hand or did He not? Did He say to put them in the ark or didn't He? He wrote them not once, but after Moses broke the original---He wrote them again, on stone.
Did God dictate the ceremonial laws to Moses and he wrote them down or not? Did they go outside the ark or not? Was the earthly sanctuary a copy of the heavenly or not? If the earthly sanctuary contained the testimony---the 10 commandments, what does the heavenly one carry? Is the ark in the heavenly sanctuary still called the ark of the testimony or not? It takes no one but you, and the Holy Spirit and the bible to figure these things out.
Exo 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
Deu_10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
This is where the ceremonial laws went:
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
They are in the heavenly ark:
Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
What ended at the cross? All ceremonial laws that pointed to the death of Jesus as the Lamb sacrificed for our sins---it take no prophet, it takes nothing more than reading the bible and knowing what the animal sacrifices pointed to. Why would any law that is in the heavenly sanctuary be nailed to the cross? Why would ceremonial laws pointed to Jesus still be needed after the cross?
It is interesting that you can tell someone:
But when the same thing is mentioned to you---you get upset!
But when the same thing is mentioned to you---you get upset!
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No brother I am not upset, but I see you are because I mentioned your so-called prophet. Just where do you think you have gotten your belief system? I fell for what you believe and tried to live it for almost forty years. I am anything but upset. I am free in Jesus and instead of trying to live up to a few rules from the ministry of death 2Cor3:7, I have the Holy Spirit as my guide patiently showing me the way to salvation. The Holy Spirit has never prompted me to observe days. It was some very good intending people that convinced me to convert. I didn't know then what I know now so I accepted the invitation.
What becomes upsetting is when my opposers twist what I write because they cannot reply with anything that counters.
It really does not matter where the ten commandments are, what is important is that they are not now the guide for Christians. The Israelites were given the stones and were to reverend them. We are given Jesus and the Holy Spirit and we are to reverend them.
You tell me that the "ceremonial" laws have been done away. Have you really studied Matt 5 or are you just parroting the words of your peers and the SDA church? 17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; Israelites had already broken the covenant which contained the Law and it would soon become null and void with the ratification of the new covenant with Jesus own blood. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the prophets and kept the law that the Israelites failed to keep. Fulfill means to bring to an end and Jesus didn't separate which laws He was bringing to an end like you have attempted to do. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. The question becomes did Jesus fulfill or accomplish everything He came to do or did He leave something undone? I submit to you that God doesn't do something halfway. Jeremiah prophesied that a new covenant was coming and the change came at Calvary. The covenant, with its "moral" and "Ceremonial" ( as you put it ) laws, was superseded with the new and better covenant of grace.
The law never saved one soul. It was faith like Abraham had that was the key to salvation. It was by this same faith that Israelites were saved while under the Sinai covenant.
Laws dealing with morality are forever. They are part of the Royal Law of Love at the heart of the new covenant. If we love one another we will do nothing to harm others in any way. The new covenant doesn't have a bunch of ritual laws including the ritual weekly Sabbath law.
If it would take really "keeping" the Sabbath in order to be saved then Jesus would be very lonely. Why? Because no one has ever really kept the Sabbath according to the law. Ever tried to keep your thoughts only on Holy things during the hours of the Israelite Sabbath? Do you shun your own pleasures ( whatever that means) on the old covenant holy day? Is58:13 The fact is we are not under those ritual laws or rules. God is not judging us by the standards He once gave to Israel. We can glean so much from studying the Old Testament and we should be very thankful that Jesus came and did away with laws that man could not accomplish.
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mmksparbud
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You are not very observant!---that's SISTER!
I've been on the forum for many years and I do not get upset when our prophet is mentioned---I am used to it and she is usually mentioned along with the words "false prophet."
I will say this again---I am SDA not because I agree with what they teach, but because they teach what I believe. I left God for over 30 years in my wild and angry youth and I ended up investigating every religion out there and just before surrendering to God, I was starting to get into the occult and had just purchased my pack of Tarot cards. If I was going to come back to God, I wanted to be in a church that followed the bible and not the latest, or most popular religious fad.
Yes, I know what "fulfill" means:
fulfill
[fo͝olˈfil]
VERB
- bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"he wouldn't be able to fulfill his ambition to visit Naples"
synonyms:
succeed in · attain · realize · consummate · satisfy · manage · bring off ·
carry out · accomplish · achieve · execute · perform · discharge · implement
- (fulfill oneself)
gain happiness or satisfaction by fully developing one's abilities or character.
"arts grants go to young people who say they wish to fulfill themselves" - archaic
complete (a period of time or piece of work).
"friends whose ill-timed speed fulfilled my soon-repented deed"
- (fulfill oneself)
- carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.
"some officials were dismissed because they could not fulfill their duties"
synonyms:
carry out · accomplish · achieve · execute · perform · discharge · implement
- As you said--moral laws are eternal---that is why they are in the ark that is in the heavenly temple. They are eternal. And the Sabbath will be kept in the new earth.
- Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
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TreWalker
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Please, I humbly request you meditate on this statement of yours for a bit. It's circular and self-defeating.
You do not agree with what they teach, but they teach what you believe.
You believe what the SDA teach, but you do not agree with it?
So you do not agree with what you believe?
It appears you are not thinking straight.
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mmksparbud
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Seriously? You can't understand that? The SDA church teaches what I believe---That's why I am one.---simple.
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TreWalker
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This statement conveys you do not agree with what they teach. Maybe I have misunderstood you, and maybe you have not presented your thought clearly.
So you DO agree and believe in what the SDA teach? This is what I take from your last statement.
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mmksparbud
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No---that is not what the statements says. I became an SDA not because I agree with what they teach ---but because they agree with what I believe. Good grief, just means the reason for my becoming one is because they agree with what I believe the bible teaches. Get it?
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pasifika
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Hello, it sounds like those who teach there, teach something they don't believe in...it like those who preach at your church deceive the people by their preaching since what they believe is Not what they tell the people...
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mmksparbud
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Apparently you do not understand English!!! I am so very sorry, but I don't know what other language you would like to have this explained to you. Perhaps you could have someone else explain it to you.
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