Faith and Obedience

DeepWater said:

A person has the true understanding, the literal revelation of Salvation, ....THIS begins at the very instant they stop trying to add any conditions to Grace, and understand why and can explain it.
The revelation of Salvation, is that Jesus is Salvation, Jesus is Grace.
The Grace of God, is Salvation, and Jesus is the Grace of God.

Legalism, the legalist, is the person who does not yet understand why God accepts and "saves" a person.
The Legalist is always found on forums like this one, trying to endlessly prove that the Grace of God, is a "2 part" invention.
The Cross + Works.
This of course is Galatians 1:8.
The Legalist has an issue with their self righteousness, and this is why the Legalist adds TO the Cross their effort, (some call it obedience... others call it enduring to the end).....all Legalists have their LIST of do's and don't do's they nail to the blood of Jesus as their religious self righteous method to try to (of themselves) STAY Saved. .. To keep themselves saved...........is their Theology.
But, the truly born again person, who has the understanding of Grace... "by Grace you are saved and this is NOT OF YOURSELF"..... is trusting in Christ alone= to keep them saved.
The Legalist, does not trust in Christ ALONE, to KEEP THEM SAVED.
And the reason they dont trust in Christ alone to Keep them Saved, is because they have "fallen from Grace".

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DW, I think you are playing with words when saying Jesus is grace or salvation. Jesus is the 2nd person of the blessed Trinity. Salvation is a process human beings go through to become sanctified. Grace is a created substance (spiritual) that God infuses a soul with In order to sanctify a person.



Insisting that Christ uses persons and things in the process of salvation is not a legal concept and therefore not a legalism. Your idea that Christ is alone becomes a contradiction when you introduce the bible alone, the Holy Spirit alone and grace alone. How can something be alone when it comes with other things?



I can agree that we are saved by grace alone but faith cannot be useful without the grace it carries. Faith by admission of this very forum's thread is accompanied by grace, more concisely is the means to the acts by which we acquire sanctifying grace. Faith is primarily an intellectual virtue and as such is how we know what to do in order to be saved. To be obedient requires knowledge of something to do. Even a choice, for instance,the choice to turn to Christ, is an act, albeit a spiritual one. Obedience is an act.



Fideism, the tenet that faith is alone, fails because it makes the Christian faith subjective, centered in the head and not in the world we are being saved in. Our faith requires us to act precisely because to act is to be human and God is saving human beings. In fact to sin is to act and sin is nullified by sanctifying grace.



There is a saying that sums up the human condition since the Fall. Upon entering this world we are not fit for heaven nor are we deserving of hell. Since Adam and Eve were deprived of sanctifying grace after they had sinned they could not pass it on their progeny and it was grace that made them (and us) fit for heaven. At the same time Adam and Eve did not deserve the pains of hell since they had not sinned at their creation. Likewise for us in that we are not deserving of hell until we actually commit a serious sin that separates us from God. Furthermone one cannot commit a sin unless they have use of their intellect, that is, unless they know what they do is against God's will. TCB

hedrick said:

Part of the problem with debates over salvation by faith is that no Biblical writer actually says such a thing. Paul says we are justified by faith. But justification isn't identical with salvation. Justification is how we are set right with God, and also what defines us as one of God's people.

"Save" and "salvation" is used in a variety of contexts, but at times Paul does clarify its relationship with justification:

“Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.e 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.” (Rom 5:9-10)

Dunn’s commentary on this passage notes that in Paul save is almost always in future tense. Justification establishes a new relationship with God through Christ; secure in that relationship we then have new life, not just in final judgement but (partially) now.

If salvation is eternal life, then it is conceptually distinct from justification but is built on it.

One of the distinctive properties of Jesus’ teaching is that he emphasizes motivation and intent. That’s clearest in Mat 5 but is present throughout his teaching. Good fruit comes from good trees. It’s hard to see how we can be justified and not also produce good fruit.

However that doesn’t mean that everyone who is justified will meet tests that various Christians set up. Sinlessness. Not being guilty of whatever you think is the most serious sin. Repenting from every sin they commit. One of the problems with being imperfect is that we don’t even recognize all of our sins. Furthermore, Christians don’t even agree on what is sin. You see discussions all the time in CF. I think anyone who votes for Trump has rejected the Gospel. I’ve seen claims that using instruments in worship is sin, that drinking alcohol is sin, that believing in evolution is apostasy. I’m sure we’ll find out who is right at the last judgement — I’m no relativist who claims that everyone is right — but there’s no sign in the NT that we’re damned because of such errors. Well, maybe not voting for Trump.

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Hendrick, I think you make a good point concerning the difference between sanctification (salvation) and justification. While the latter has to do with sin and therefore the law, the former has to do with unity or, if you will, friendship with God. Both have to do with obtaining and maintaining salvic grace.

As I said in another post Adam and Eve were created in a state of grace that made them fit for heaven. They simply lost this grace when they disobeyed God.

Unlike them we are conceived (created) without grace, because it should have, but could not be passed on from them; what one does not have they cannot give to another. We initially obtain the grace that sanctifies us when baptized. We lose it again as our first parents did whenever we commit a serious sin (ie: disobedience to God).

Now notice here where I speak of grace I am referring to sanctification but where I speak of sin (and the law) I refer to justification. Both important but both different aspects of salvation.
Again notice that both Adam and Eve, and we ourselves, lose grace through disobedience to God's will. Once 'saved' we must obey God (who knows what's best for us because he's our creator). Even prior to entering the life of grace we should obey God because his intentions are always for our good.

Obedience is therefore not something attached or outside of our sanctification/justification but intimately tied to it. As rational creatures we must know and do God's will at all times or risk losing the grace we need to be united to God (or in other words be in friendship with God or reside with God in heaven).

To put simply we only have a moral assurance which is why obedience is so important. One need not argue over "once saved always saved or can we lose our salvation." The whole process of salvation involves grace and our obedience, sanctification and justification, and doing good to others out of love for God and them. TCB

Tree of Life said:

I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

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Faith is belief and trust both of which imply actions consistent with the thing that is believed and the one who is trusted. That is why James explains that faith without works is dead. His implication is that belief that does no works is mere academic interest. It is not faith at all.

kcmonseysr said:

For what it’s worth, I have to agree with those on this forum that argue that the Law of Moses is still active, even as Scripture affirms:

17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven Matt 5:17-19​

And Paul by using the present tense - well after the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah - is clearly acknowledging that the Law still exists:

7 What shall we say then? IS the law sin? …12 So that the law IS holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. Rom. 7:7,12​

Hence, the “all things” spoken of by Yeshua were not yet accomplished as of Paul’s day. Nor do I believe that “all things” have yet been accomplished in our day…

So, it seems to me that the big question that should be being addressed is in regard to just what, if any, is the authority/power of the Law over us who are now living in Messiah - i.e. born of the Spirit of God? I.e. has THAT relationship with the Torah changed? And I would say that the Scripture says YES!

1 Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? … But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:1,6-7

4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom. 10:4

19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. Gal. 2:19-21​

So, as a nice Jewish lawyer once put it to me: As long as you are living/residing in the State of Pennsylvania you are subject to the laws of that State. But if you cross over the border to the State of New York, then at that time you are no longer subject to the laws of Pennsylvania. However, you do then become subject to the Laws of the State of New York. If we have been born again/born anew, we have crossed the border and are no longer subject to the Law of Moses. But we have not ended the Law of Moses, and those who still reside in that state of being (the natural man) are still under Torah - or Noahide Law. Yet we who have entered into a new state are certainly free, if we so choose, to obey (going back to the State analogy) all or some of the Laws of Pennsylvania (insofar as those laws do not contravene the laws of the State of New York where we are currently - hopefully - residing). But obeying the laws of the State of Pennsylvania does not make us better New Yorkers. And we are not at all free to insist that our current fellow residents of the State of New York MUST also follow the laws of Pennsylvania along with us.

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The "heaven and earth" of the Jews was the Old Covenant Temple and its animal sacrifices. This "heaven and earth" of the Jews was no longer relevant to God for salvation after Jesus ratified His New Covenant by His sacrificial death on the cross. Jesus ratified His New Covenant by His own Sacrificial Blood. The OC with its temple and animal sacrifices disappeared completely in 70 A.D. when they were destroyed by the Roman Army.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one (OC) obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old (OC) is ready to disappear. mrint

Jesus' perfect sacrifice ratified His new covenant and thereby ended the old covenant law of Moses.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law (of Moses), so now there is righteousness for everyone who believes (law of Christ). mrint See also Mark 16:16


Yes, the Law of Moses has ended. The Law of Christ is now in effect and will be forever.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (law of Christ) has set you free from the law of sin and of death (Law of Moses).

Galatians 3:24
Now before faith came (law of Christ), we were held in custody under the law (of Moses), imprisoned until the coming faith (law of Christ) would be revealed. 24 Thus the law (of Moses) was our disciplinarian until the time of Christ, so that we might be declared righteous by faith. 25 But now that faith (law of Christ) has come, we are no longer under a guardian (law of Moses). mrint

Law of Christ:

Luke 10:27
In answer he said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your life, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” mrint


Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. mrint

You err by connecting the Mosaic Covenant with salvation; when actually it has to do with blessings in the Land. Read Deuteronomy 28 carefully.

As to salvation, it comes by way of God's promise not by our works. Read Gal. 3:16-18


The seed that Galatians is referring to is Abraham's seed (singular in the Hebrew) in Gen. 22:18,

which seed grammatically links back to the promised seed of the woman (i.e. the Messiah) spoken of in Gen. 3:15.

Salvation has never come by means of the Law. No human being (except Christ) has ever managed to keep it.

BukiRob said:

Nope you are clinging to error. If the Torah were done away with Messiah would have addressed this issue... you clearly have no concept how FOUDATIONAL it is... Then do explain why in the Milenial reign the Sabbath aand Feast day of Adonai will be observed BY ALL. And those nations that are not in obedience will have rain withheld from them

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Let me add a thought or two that have probably already been mentioned one way or the other.
Does it make sense that the Jewish Christians in the early Church (who were steeped so to speak in the law and feasts) continued celebrating these in part because they saw the deeper meaning in them subsequent to being 'In Christ'? The feasts, the tabernacle, the Torah--all of these things spoke of Christ and were indeed school teachers that brought them to Christ. Recall also, that the NT scriptures didn't exist--all they had were the law, psalms and prophets. It is not conceivable that they would discard them in any way.
Isn't it also truth that their understanding grew over time as the Spirit revealed the distinction between Law and Grace?
Somewhere in there is a balance where truth is found.

As an aside: personally, I have come to believe that there is more for us to learn in the OT than the NT--with the Holy Spirit leading the way.
Why? You might ask.
My answer would bring a variety of comment, but I will go on anyway.

I think the veracity of the OT is more robust due to the way the scribes were constrained to absolute accuracy when making copies. Not so with the NT.
Also, aside from the Gospels and Acts, which are historical in nature--the letters were, in the main, written to specific individuals and communities (local churches) and dealt with known issues of the time.
We don't have the background--we weren't there. There is much light there, but easily misunderstood.

The Law, the psalms and the prophets contain an almost unending supply of types, shadows and tellings that teach us of our Lord.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Law and we who are In Him also fulfill the Law as we 'live out' that Life that He has given us by Grace. All we need do is with honest hearts, look to Him and He will lead us from light to light. He desires that we be faithful to the light/truth that He reveals to each of us. We don't all have the same light at any given time. There are different reasons for this, but it is obviously true.
The danger in speaking about law is that we may inadvertently place a yoke on a brother or sister that doesn't have the maturity to deal with it in the context of Grace.

Tree of Life said:

Faith and obedience are both two different things and the same thing?

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Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and obedience which follows is the fruit. No obedience at all would demonstrate that there is no root.

Jan001 said:

Law of Christ:

Luke 10:27
In answer he said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your life, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

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You are correct here. In order to be justified, you have to love the Lord with all your heart, life and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Unless you do this, you will be condemned because it is a command of Christ.

But there is a catch...

We must love God to the standard in which Christ loves His Father, and we must love our neighbor to the standard in which Christ loves us. This is a perfect standard, In fact, it is not the other person who is our neighbor as such, but we are neighbors to every other person, including our enemies, and we are required to have a perfect, faultless love for them. We have no problem about loving ourselves, and we will ensure that we will never do ourselves harm if we can help it.

Unless we are able to do this to the standard of perfection that Jesus has, we will fall short and be condemned.

So, if anyone is teaching that we should love God with all our hearts, life, and strength, and love all others, including our enemies as we love ourselves, then go and do it, and do it perfectly yourself to prove it can be done to perfection.

Oscarr said:

You are correct here. In order to be justified, you have to love the Lord with all your heart, life and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Unless you do this, you will be condemned because it is a command of Christ.

But there is a catch...

We must love God to the standard in which Christ loves His Father, and we must love our neighbor to the standard in which Christ loves us. This is a perfect standard, In fact, it is not the other person who is our neighbor as such, but we are neighbors to every other person, including our enemies, and we are required to have a perfect, faultless love for them. We have no problem about loving ourselves, and we will ensure that we will never do ourselves harm if we can help it.

Unless we are able to do this to the standard of perfection that Jesus has, we will fall short and be condemned.

So, if anyone is teaching that we should love God with all our hearts, life, and strength, and love all others, including our enemies as we love ourselves, then go and do it, and do it perfectly yourself to prove it can be done to perfection.

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Further to this post:

The reason why Jesus has specified such a high standard of obedience to His commands is that He knows that we can never meet that standard as long as we live. Therefore His purpose is not to actually require that we try to obey perfectly to be fully accepted of God, because He does not give us a yoke of bondage that would be impossible for us to bear.

Why He sets the bar of His standards of obedience to absolute perfection is to show us that because we cannot meet that standard, it is to show us our sin and our hopeless and helpless state and our deserving of hell because of our unrighteousness.

Therefore those who a teaching that we have to obey the commands of Christ are saying that we have to be justified by following the Law, because His instruction to love God with all our hearts is the first half of the Law, and being a true neighbor to others and loving them as we love ourselves is the second half of the Law. If you examine the Law in Deuteronomy, you will see this. These people who are teaching obedience in this way are saying that we have to be justified by the Law, but the Scripture says that there is no justification in the works of the Law; and the commands of Christ are just as much the Law as the Law in Deuteronomy. Therefore, these people are teaching condemnation, judgment, and putting people on the road to hell.

The truth is that according to the Mosaic Law and the commands of Christ which fully support them, we have come short of the glory of God, are total sinners, worthy only of judgment and condemnation. So, trying to live up to the Law will land us only in hell!

So, if we cannot follow the commands of Christ in order to be accepted of God and justified, what is the answer then?

The Cross.

charsan said:

Not Catholic and still "faith alone" is of no consequence since it is really a made up idea. We are saved by God's grace alone through faith that is never alone

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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Men continue to do what men have done since the tree of knowledge. Think too much and devise ways to build a tower to God. This is tragic, as God has made the way for us through Christ.
My friends--we try to complicate the Gospel and so many have done a masterful 'natural man' job of it.
No matter how we dress it up--our righteousness is as filthy rags. No matter the clever justifications for prideful works, man falls short and into error.
I like the illustration of placing a note into a book and mailing that book here and there. Everything the book experiences the note experiences. The history of the book, is the history of the note.
We were placed 'IN CHRIST' by the Father...like the note in the book. We died in Him on the Cross, were buried, we rose and we ascended. This is history. It happened as ordained by our Father.
Everything that Christ is--we are. We cannot add to this work.
The understanding must start with this as the foundation. Everything has to be consistent with the Cross and Resurrection and Ascension.
And it will be revealed one day--what we are.

Danthemailman said:

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

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Through grace by faith are we saved by God, not the silly man's idea of faith alone and on this I will not compromise nor back down.

charsan said:

Through grace by faith are we saved by God, not the silly man's idea of faith alone and on this I will not compromise nor back down.

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Man is saved by grace through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

yes but never ever by faith alone

charsan said:

yes but never ever by faith alone

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So then, what are we to do with Ephesians 2:8,9?

What would you have me do with it? It does not say by faith alone at all.

What do you say is required?