Offence

Neogaia777 · Sep 3, 2019

Dave-W said:
Sinning against you and offending you are 2 different things, although they may overlap.

All offenses against you, or that you take offense at, are not necessarily all sins against you, or someone sinning against you, but all sins or sinning (done) against you, or to you, are all offenses against you...

So if all sins against you or done against you or to you, are all offenses to you or against you, then how are you not to become offended...?

Or if the shoe is on the other foot, how are they not to become offended at you...?

But what if your not sinning against them and they become offended...? Or if you do, (become offended against them if/when they are not sinning against you) if the shoe is on the other foot...?

What then...?

God Bless!

LovebirdsFlying · Sep 3, 2019

True: Many times a Christian cannot so much as utter the name of Jesus Christ without offending someone. We cannot even bring up the subject without being accused of shoving it down someone's throat. If we mention the concept of sin, then we're judgmental, and if we quote John 14:6 where Jesus says no one comes to the Father except through Him, then goodness, aren't we hateful narrow-minded bigots. Bottom line, if we speak the truth, we are GOING to offend.

Also true: This doesn't give us license to deliberately speak or act offensively while preaching the gospel. I've seen it a thousand times. A Christian may come off with angry tones and finger-pointing, yelling in someone's face about burning in hell. Or, a Christian may hurl rude epithets to describe sinful behavior or wrong beliefs. Then when those being "witnessed" to in this manner become upset about it, of course it's the *gospel* that is offensive, and they "just didn't want to hear the truth."

Let's not forget Ephesians 4:15, speaking the truth in love.

Church leadership had recent occasion to rebuke me. My thinking just wasn't right. I was full of resentment and bitterness about some things that had been going on in my life, and I was letting it affect my relationship with the Lord. The chief deacon talked to me, and he told me some hard truth. BUT, even though he himself described it as "being tough on me" and even compared it to a parent spanking a child, he really wasn't harsh at all. He spoke kindly and sympathetically, in a soft tone of voice, with a gentle facial expression, while telling me in detail how wrong I was. That got me back on the right path. I listened. If he actually had been harsh, who knows what kind of wedge it might have driven?

Shrewd Manager · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Yes and no... didn't Jonah carry that message - repent or be destroyed?

And so did Jesus - mainly to the Pharisees. But apropos of particular sin or circumstance to reveal and correct - rather than in the form of a general ultimatum.

Carl Emerson said:
By the way I am only 5'7"

I always call Carls 'Big Carl' for some reason. See what happens when you generalise?

public hermit · Sep 3, 2019

LaBèlla said:
I spoke softly and assured him I would never force my beliefs upon him. And I reminded him how I came to faith and the necessity of choosing God himself.

That is a beautiful way to be. May our Lord bless you for it.

I try to be very gentle with those who have yet to come to faith. I remember distasteful encounters I had prior to coming to faith and I promised myself I would not be like that. I generally do not go out of my way to point out the sins of those who have yet to come to faith, as if they aren't aware of them. More often than not people know where they are failing. And, if they don't, simply telling them it is a failing won't do all that much (edit: my thinking may not be right on this point). Certainly, I do not presume to know their eternal destination, so I am not tempted to declare to them what it will be.

For me, the most important thing to do is love them, treat them with dignity and respect, care for them, and help if it is needed. I focus on that, so that when I tell them God loves them, that Christ died for them because God loves them, they will already have some experience of what that kind of love means, from me. The greatest evidence we can provide for the gospel we proclaim is the way we live and the way we love. Or, so it seems to me.

Neogaia777 · Sep 3, 2019

What about purposely offending or provoking "Pharisees"...?

But not seeking to offend, at least not on purpose, any other types...?

God Bless!

public hermit · Sep 3, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
What about purposely offending or provoking "Pharisees"...?

What would that kind of offense or provocation look like? Would you mind giving an example?

ByTheSpirit · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

True to a point.

Some are offensive because they speak the truth, others are because they speak hate.

God doesn't want us to offend people just because we are supposed to, and not every sinner was offended by Jesus. In fact, most probably weren't as he had huge crowds following him, listening to his messages.

Just going around proclaiming God hates sin isn't proclaiming a true gospel message. And telling Jesus on the Day of Judgement that you offended multitudes in his name won't impress him.

God is love, not offense

Neogaia777 · Sep 3, 2019

Chadrho said:
What would that kind of offense or provocation look like? Would you mind giving an example?

Sure, Jesus... and as reference, look in the Bible...

There are Pharisitical types still around today, and about half of them are on here, and in some churches also, etc...

Tell me you don't see that.

God Bless!

public hermit · Sep 3, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
Sure, Jesus... and as reference, look in the Bible...

My bad, I thought you were talking about "Pharisees" today.

Neogaia777 · Sep 3, 2019

Chadrho said:
My bad, I thought you were talking about "Pharisees" today.

Added to and edited my post, if you want to, look again please, thanks,

God Bless!

DamianWarS · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

Jesus tells us to be as wise as serpents as a gentle as doves. in that space, we may still offend but we must be careful not to confuse the two.

Tropical Wilds · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

Maybe it’s because I’m American, but I have yet to experience this kind of thing. I imagine that in countries where this is the reality, this must be a struggle.

GraceBro · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

We shouldn't be surprised. It is evidence of the truth of God's Word. For as the scriptures say, "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18)."

Legalists are offended by grace
"Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished (Galatians 5:11)"

Jesus' family and neighbors took offense with Him
"And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor (Matthew 13:57)."

Jesus is an offense to those who don't believe
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame (Romans 9:33).”

"and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do (1 Peter 2:8)."

"And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem (Isaiah 8:14)."

Grace and Peace

Anguspure · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Here is a practical example of my OP...

We have taught bible in schools for years.

Some one complains and is 'offended' by it.

Using the 'O' word triggers a political response and no more bible in schools...

It seems to me (I have 4 children who are in / have been in our public school system) that this is an unfortunate reality of our system. the Parent Teacher Association Committees that run the schools are elected representatives of the broader community of parents who have children attending the school.

As a result the great majority of committee members are secular and more likely to be people of a more liberal intellectual bent who probably take a dim view of religion in general and the Christian exclusivity in particular.

As a result, Bible in schools is not viewed with favour (despite the valuable moral grounding that it might be said to provide), and any complaint against religious education of this sort will be taken as sufficient reason to stop it.

That said the secularists are not hesitant to introduce their own brand of "ethical" training and "Harold the Giraffe" attends the local school that my children currently attend on a regular basis to "educate and empower them to make healthy choices so they can live full and healthy lives". Every year they teach over 250,000 children about their body, friendships, their identity, food and nutrition and helpful and harmful substances.

LifeEducationTrust

bèlla · Sep 3, 2019

LovebirdsFlying said:
I've seen it a thousand times. A Christian may come off with angry tones and finger-pointing, yelling in someone's face about burning in hell.

This happened in my neighborhood several years ago. We were accosted. The group pushed Hanukkah candles, tracts, and started yelling. It was quite a scene. Complaints were made and the practice is banned in the area. The only thing they won was expulsion for themselves and other groups.

He spoke kindly and sympathetically, in a soft tone of voice, with a gentle facial expression, while telling me in detail how wrong I was. That got me back on the right path. I listened. If he actually had been harsh, who knows what kind of wedge it might have driven?

Love is always best.

AlexDTX · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

This is true.

Many will say that offenses come because what has been said is said in an offensive way. And this is true, too.

But offenses will come even when you speak the truth in love. For example, several years ago I attended a meeting held by an elder with the pastor on installing cameras in the children's ministry rooms for their protection. When the meeting ended, I had realized that there was no prayer in the beginning and they were about to leave without a prayer. So, I simply asked, "Shouldn't we pray and ask the Lord for his guidance?"

The elder immediately took offense and said that prayer was a given, and I did not need to pray about it now. I looked at the pastor who sheepishly turned away. At that moment I realized that the pastor was a Reuben personality, unstable as water. I did not argue with the elder, and simply left nonplussed.

Perhaps he had ought with me for some other thing he never spoke to me about, but I don't think so. I think he was embarrassed at the realization that he neglected to include a fundamental Christian discipline in the meeting.

When a truth that can cause offense is stated, there are two reactions that can be expected. First, is rejection and defensiveness arguing against it. The second is humility and repentance in realizing the error to seek correction.

Pro_9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Truth never hurts. Truth is health and life. What hurts is exposure of the error or sin. Sin is disease and death.

dqhall · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

Over 35 years ago I was working a job in the Shenandoah Valley. Some of the laborers spent their spare time drinking beer. They boasted about it. One of them complained about a mom and pop convenience store down the road that did not sell alcohol. He described it as a Christian store. He knew some Christians do not drink alcohol and denounced the store as it was quite useless to him.

Some years ago I preached to some of my next door neighbors against smoking cigarettes and using drugs. I was denounced as a snitch. Garbage was dumped in my yard. Someone put a bullet into the side of my house. After living there four years I wanted to move. I prayed for a few weeks about a place to move to. I moved to a low crime neighborhood. As I was packing to move a county deputy and his wife moved into the house behind mine. I figured the party was over for my drinking and drugging neighbors. I left and did not look back.

In some Muslim countries Christians were executed for preaching their faith. In Israel it is illegal for a Christian to proselytize his/her faith to a Jew.

In the Marxist Soviet Union during the reign of Stalin, people were sent to Siberian labor camps for their Christian activities. Many of them died of hunger or exposure to the cold in the Soviet gulag prison camps.

Carl Emerson · Sep 3, 2019

LaBèlla said:
Was this an extra curricular activity or mandatory class?

The former.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus offended many. Jesus was sinless.

Sinners were offended.

Our faith is offensive to sinners.

The offended cry foul when offended, they demand immunity from offence.

Thus they demand our faith is silenced. They press for our confession to be hate speech.

****** DISUSS *****

There are incorrect offenders and true offenders.

Westboro Baptist church would be an example of an incorrect offender.
True offenders will speak the truth in love.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ" (Ephesians 4:15).

But it's got to be love AND the truth.
A person can speak the Bible in love but if there is no truth in what they say with the Bible, then that also means they are an incorrect offender, as well.

There needs to be a balance of the truth and love in what a believer says with the Bible. If this kind of believer offends, this is a genuine suffering on behalf of God's Kingdom for His glory. Others would be suffering falsely.

childeye 2 · Sep 3, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Here is a practical example of my OP...

We have taught bible in schools for years.

Some one complains and is 'offended' by it.

Using the 'O' word triggers a political response and no more bible in schools...

Should I be offended the bible is not taught in schools? God is Spirit and we know Him because He gave us of His Spirit. They still teach the golden rule in school as far as I know.

Offence

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