Full Preterism On The Last Trumpet

robycop3 said:

No, it hasn't been debunked at all.

What HAS been debunked is the pret notion that the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem was the great trib. The PROOF is obvious...Jesus did NOT return soon after that siege

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Scripture and History prove your assumption false.

For Sure The Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, Came EXACTLY as and When Jesus Said He would and Crushed those wicked men to powder (Matthew 21:33-45)

Jesus plainly called the Coming destruction of the temple "The Coming of the Lord"
We are to Believe Him.

& the world continued right on afterwards, same as it did before then.

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The Old Covenant world most certainly did NOT continue right on afterwards, same as before.

Go back to Heb 12:18, and you will see that the contrast is being made between the Old and New Covenant ages. The author states that God "shook the earth" to establish the Mosaic age, but now in their time he was "shaking once more," for they were receiving the New Covenant kingdom Jesus gave them (Matthew 21:43/Hebrews 12:28/Mark 1:14-15). The Old Covenant age was at that moment (i.e., AD 64-66) waxing old and was "about to vanish away" (Heb 8:13). It did vanish away just about five years later at AD 70, for "in a very, very short while, He who was coming came and did not delay" (Heb 10:37).

According to the writer of Hebrews, God was removing the first covenant age so as to establish the second:

--COMPARE THIS--

Hebrews 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace...

--TO THIS--

Hebrews 10:9
Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second.

--AND TO THIS--

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first [covenant] obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

--AND TO THIS--

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Simply put, the Old Covenant world was being removed, and the New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days period of the Old Coveanant age.

parousia70 said:

Scripture and History prove your assumption false.

For Sure The Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, Came EXACTLY as and When Jesus Said He would and Crushed those wicked men to powder (Matthew 21:33-45)

Jesus plainly called the Coming destruction of the temple "The Coming of the Lord"
We are to Believe Him.



The Old Covenant world most certainly did NOT continue right on afterwards, same as before.

Go back to Heb 12:18, and you will see that the contrast is being made between the Old and New Covenant ages. The author states that God "shook the earth" to establish the Mosaic age, but now in their time he was "shaking once more," for they were receiving the New Covenant kingdom Jesus gave them (Matthew 21:43/Hebrews 12:28/Mark 1:14-15). The Old Covenant age was at that moment (i.e., AD 64-66) waxing old and was "about to vanish away" (Heb 8:13). It did vanish away just about five years later at AD 70, for "in a very, very short while, He who was coming came and did not delay" (Heb 10:37).

According to the writer of Hebrews, God was removing the first covenant age so as to establish the second:

--COMPARE THIS--

Hebrews 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace...

--TO THIS--

Hebrews 10:9
Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second.

--AND TO THIS--

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first [covenant] obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

--AND TO THIS--

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Simply put, the Old Covenant world was being removed, and the New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days period of the Old Coveanant age.

Click to expand...

Nothingta do with the great trib.

robycop3 said:

...the world continued right on afterwards, same as it did before then.

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Depending on the context in which you see "the WORLD":
- if you apply your modern, Grecian-Roman viewpoint, then yes, the WORLD has continued right on
- if you respect the ancient Hebrew viewpoint (which is the correct context for both OT and NT) then the WORLD is of the OT, which has been consummated, destroyed, never to be recovered from. This was THE WORLD of the OT Israel.

robycop3 said:

Nothingta do with the great trib.

Click to expand...

Rather, it has EVERYTHING to do with Israels Great Tribulation (great distress upon the land and upon it's people) of 66-70AD.

Due to the covanental significance of that event it can never be repeated. Nothing past or future could ever come close to the devastation millions of Messiah rejecting Jews received as they were violently, permanently excommunicated out of Covenant with God.
Nothing.

parousia70 said:

Rather, it has EVERYTHING to do with Israels Great Tribulation (great distress upon the land and upon it's people) of 66-70AD.

Due to the covanental significance of that event it can never be repeated. Nothing past or future could ever come close to the devastation millions of Messiah rejecting Jews received as they were violently, permanently excommunicated out of Covenant with God.
Nothing.

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The great trib won't be limited to Israel, but will cover the whole world. While Jesus punished the Jews with the Roman siege, that was the punishment He prophesied in Luke 21:22. And remember, in Luke 21, Jesus goes on to explain Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Thus, Jesus was speaking about Jerusalem AFTER its destruction by the Romans. Obviously, J is still being trod underfoot by gentiles, so their time isn't yet over. And, in Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus sez He will return in the midst of a great cosmological disturbance IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Since this event has NOT yet occurred, neither has the great trib.

robycop3 said: ↑
Being GOD, Jesus can do as He chooses.

The literalness of the fulfillment of Jesus' OD prophecies which have already cometa pass established the literalness of the others. You can deny this all ya wish, but the other events of the OD have simply not yet occurred. You cannot avoid that fact no matter what.

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parousia70 said: ↑
Unfortunately for your position, it's NOT a fact.

As I have demonstrated, David was LITERALLY saved from the hands of His enemy Saul, yet that Literalness in no way established any "literalness" to the language of Cosmological disturbance that David cited as synonymous with it.
The Bible interprets itself.

Your "premise" has been debunked thoroughly.

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robycop3 said: ↑
No, it hasn't been debunked at all.

What HAS been debunked is the pret notion that the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem was the great trib. The PROOF is obvious...Jesus did NOT return soon after that siege

Click to expand...

parousia70 said: ↑
Scripture and History prove your assumption false.
For Sure The Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief Cornerstone, Came EXACTLY as and When Jesus Said He would and Crushed those wicked men to powder (Matthew 21:33-45)

Jesus plainly called the Coming destruction of the temple "The Coming of the Lord"
We are to Believe Him.


The Old Covenant world most certainly did NOT continue right on afterwards, same as before.

Go back to Heb 12:18, and you will see that the contrast is being made between the Old and New Covenant ages. The author states that God "shook the earth" to establish the Mosaic age, but now in their time he was "shaking once more," for they were receiving the New Covenant kingdom Jesus gave them (Matthew 21:43/Hebrews 12:28/Mark 1:14-15). The Old Covenant age was at that moment (i.e., AD 64-66) waxing old and was "about to vanish away" (Heb 8:13). It did vanish away just about five years later at AD 70, for "in a very, very short while, He who was coming came and did not delay" (Heb 10:37).

According to the writer of Hebrews, God was removing the first covenant age so as to establish the second:

--COMPARE THIS--

Hebrews 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace...

--TO THIS--

Hebrews 10:9
Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second.

--AND TO THIS--

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first [covenant] obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

--AND TO THIS--

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Simply put, the Old Covenant world was being removed, and the New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days period of the Old Coveanant age.

Click to expand...

robycop3 said:

Nothingta do with the great trib.

Click to expand...

parousia70 said: ↑
Rather, it has EVERYTHING to do with Israels Great Tribulation (great distress upon the land and upon it's people) of 66-70AD.

Due to the covanental significance of that event it can never be repeated. Nothing past or future could ever come close to the devastation millions of Messiah rejecting Jews received as they were violently, permanently excommunicated out of Covenant with God.
Nothing.

Click to expand...

robycop3 said:

The great trib won't be limited to Israel, but will cover the whole world. While Jesus punished the Jews with the Roman siege, that was the punishment He prophesied in Luke 21:22. And remember, in Luke 21, Jesus goes on to explain Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Thus, Jesus was speaking about Jerusalem AFTER its destruction by the Romans. Obviously, J is still being trod underfoot by gentiles, so their time isn't yet over. And, in Matt. 24:29-30, Jesus sez He will return in the midst of a great cosmological disturbance IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Since this event has NOT yet occurred, neither has the great trib.

Click to expand...

Wrong.
There is no end of the world mentioned in Revelation...........

robycop3 said: ↑
He meant EXACTLY THAT. But Scripture sez He is coming to put all govts. under His heel and rule all nations from Jerusalem for 1K years.

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parousia70 said:

Please provide chapter and verse. Anytime someone says "Scripture sez X" without citing the chapter and verse of where exactly "scripture sezit", I get suspicious....

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robycop3 said:

EASY!
Rev. 19:
If you knew the bible better, you woulda known this already. I suggest you get rid of your Alcazar material and concentrate on GOD'S word insteada Alcazar's word.

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Parousia knows the Bible quite well, perhaps more than most......you should take lessons from him........

Jeff Carter: The Seventh Trumpet (2003)

The Seventh Trumpet
By Jeff Carter 2003

The ark preceded the warriors into battle. John’s vision of it here signals that a battle is about to take place The rest of the revelation given to John shows that that battle was coming against Jerusalem.
Despite the seemingly endless flood of books and movies about the end times, and the end of the world, the book of the Revelation is not about the end of time but about the time of the end – not the last days of the world – but the last days of a temporary system, a temporary covenant that has given way to a new and better covenant. The last of the trumpets have blown. The mystery of God has been fulfilled, and Jesus Christ rules as King of kings and Lord of lords.Consider: We believe that Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of lords. We believe that the world belongs to him. But the following statement was made by Tim Lahaye – coauthor of the popular Left Behind books and author of a number other “non-fiction” (term used very loosely!) books on eschatology :

“When Jesus comes, He is going to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Could anyone even suggest that for these last 1,900 years Jesus has been Lord and King over the kings of this earth – kings who have persecuted Christians by the millions (an estimated 50 million martyrs have been slaughtered for their faith)? To say that Christ is ruler now is a statement that reaches almost blasphemous proportions.” Tim Lahaye End Times Controversy: 2nd Coming Under Attack, pg. 11

Tim Lahaye says that to declare that Christ is King is almost blasphemy! But according to the bible to deny that Christ is indeed King of kings isn’t just almost blasphemy; it is blasphemy! Despite this, Lahaye’s books continue to sell, and he and others like him continue to teach an understanding that denies the truth of the scriptures.

But let’s start with the words of Jesus himself to his disciples in Matthew 16:

27 – 28 “For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you , there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Many commentators try to explain this as a reference to the Transfiguration where Peter, James, and John saw Jesus speaking to Moses and Elijah and shining was white as light which happened just six days after he had made this statement about the coming of the kingdom of God before the death of some of the disciples.

But you’ll see as you look at the transfiguration event – there was no coming with angels or any judgment. There was no repayment for everyone according to what they had done. The transfiguration was not what Jesus had in mind when he said “there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the coming of the Son of man in his kingdom.” What he meant was that his second coming would be within the lifetime of disciples who were standing there with him – that his second coming would be a first century event.

His second coming was seen in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Roman army. The great tribulation took place in the Fall of Israel. Jesus said,

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those that are out in the country enter it; for these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written…when you see all these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place.” (Luke 21:20 – 24,31 – 32)

“all that is written”, “this generation” “all has taken place” these should indicate to us that Jesus meant his coming in his kingdom would be seen in the destruction of Jerusalem within that generation – at 70 AD.

But why is the destruction of Jerusalem so important? Why was that the sign of his coming?

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was akin to the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians and the destruction of Judah by the Babylonians. These armies were used by God as the rod of his wrath for the violation of his covenant with Israel. Since they had rejected the Christ and the new covenant made in his blood their city was brought down in punishment.

But even more than that. The new covenant made in Christ’s blood had superceded the old covenant made with the blood of bulls, sheep, and goats. The new covenant with Christ as the High Priest had superceded the old covenant with a descendant of Aaron as the human high priest. The new covenant opened the heavenly temple – the true temple -to all of mankind; whereas the old covenant temple had been made by human hands and restricted entrance to a select few.

The temple in Jerusalem was the focal point of the old covenant system. The people went up to the temple to offer their sacrifices there because, even though no building made by men could contain him, God was thought to reside there within the most holy place, the Holy of Holies. The Temple with its altar and regular sacrifices was THE symbol of the sacrificial system.

This was the seventh trumpet. But the song we sometimes sing got it all wrong. “when the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more…” Time wasn’t over – except for the old covenant system. The mystery of God was revealed at the blowing of the seventh trumpet – the mystery that all would be welcomed into the kingdom of God without division between Jew and Gentile, without division between male and female.

I also have this thread posted on the eschatology board:

Partial Preterist Only - The Trumpets in Revelation Roman Trumpets 70ad

Preterist views of the Trumpets in Revelation.
Please vote in my poll thread............
[I will also be posting this thread over on CCR board for any "full preterist" views on the trumpets being fulfilled.]

First the verses:
==================
The First Four Trumpets

7 And the first-One trumpets,
and became hail and fire having been mixed in blood and was cast into the land. And the third of the land was burned-up<2618> and the third of the trees was burned-up and every green grass<5528> was burned-up .

8 And the second Messenger trumpets,
and as a great Mountain to fire burning<2545> was cast into the sea and became the third of the sea blood. 9 And died the third of the creation/creatures<2938> of the in the sea, those haing a soul
and the third of the ships<4143> were decayed/destroyed<1311

10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
and a great burning Star falls out of the heaven, as a torch and falls on the third of the rivers and upon the springs<4077> of the waters<5204> 11 And the name of the Star is being said the un-drink/wormwood<894> and became the third of the waters into un-drink/wormwood.
And many of the humans died out of the waters that were made bitter<4087>.

12 And the fourth Messenger trumpets;
and was eclipsed/struck the third of the sun and the third of the moon and the third of the stars that may be being darkened the third of them and the third of the day not may be appearing<5316>, and the night likewise.

13 And I saw and I hear an eagle<105> flying in mid heaven, saying to a loud/great<3173> voice,"Woe! Woe! Woe! those dwelling on the land out of rest of voices/soundings of the trumpet of the three Messengers of the being about to trumpeting<4534>"

Revelation 9:

1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets
and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen into the land and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss. 2 and he opens up the well of the abyss and ascended smoke from out of the well as smoke of a large furnace and is darkened the sun and the air out of the smoke of the well.
13 And the sixth Messenger trumpets and I hear one voice/sound out of the horns of the Golden Altar of the one before the God.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh Messenger trumpets
and became great voices/sounds in the heaven saying "became the Kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him
and He shall be reigning into the ages of the ages.
==================================================
Similarity of the event of Jericho and the Great City in Revelation

Joshua 6
4 And seven Priests carry seven trumpets of rams' horns in front of the Ark.
Then on the seventh day, march around the City seven times, while the Priests blow the trumpets.
13 Then seven Priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets.
And the armed men went before Them.
But the rear guard came after the Ark of the LORD, while the Priests continued blowing the trumpets.

Revelation 8:
2 And I saw the seven Messengers which stood before God,
and to Them were given seven trumpets.
6 And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready Themselves that They should be trumpeting<4537>.


Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

Some interesting info on the 1st century trumpets........

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets
The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets.
Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1).
Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
===========
Jewish Roots: The Sound Of The Trumpet
For if the Trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
(1 Corinthians 14:8).

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God.
The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).

The third trumpet sound was the order to march: "Then do the trumpets give a sound a third time, that they are to go out."(1) Some have suggested that this is the equivalent of "the last trumpet" that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 concerning the Rapture of the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

This trumpet may also point to the personal resolve of a believer to march out to serve Christ, to stand against all challenges to God's kingdom, and to be willing to endure hardships like a good soldier (2 Tim. 2:3).
=====================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

You can hear the Roman trumpets blowing in this vid

The Righterzpen said:

Interesting information.

I know a fair amount about the Roman army; but the differing sounds of trumpet calls I'd never given much thought to; as they related to metaphoric type language in Revelation.

The Roman army was quite well organized and is actually the model for all standing armies since.

As for your survey; it seems quite obvious to me that the "last trump" is Judgement Day; seeing how it is the immediate predecessor to the resurrection from the dead.

As far as the rest of the trumpets go? I can't say I've come to a distinct conclusion / when did they happen? Some of them certainly had correlation with things connected to Jesus's death, the casting out of Satan, the pouring forth of "strong delusion" and "the mystery of iniquity that already works".

Yet how all that fits together; I've yet to come to a definitive conclusion that "I believe this" about it.

It's a subject that's come up in the context of studying other things; but I've never sat down and went through the Greek in Revelation of the verses about the trumpets themselves. (Maybe that will be my next Bible project?)

Much of Revelation I've come to the conclusion, is metaphoric explanation to us of things going on / having had happened, in the spiritual realm. Some of it obviously has literal application to events on earth. Yet a lot of the pieces; I've yet to be able to put together in a way that makes some sort of comprehensive sense to me.

So, I'm probably not going to be much help on this subject.

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