GOP Rep booed for blaming single parents for mass shootings

variant said:

Maybe? That's the point. We should be discussing these things with data and detailed studies rather than just throwing it out there as an excuse.

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Exactly. But at the same time, we should not toss out any possible factors if we're really being serious about solving this issue.

To summarily and out of hand dismiss the 'fatherless factor' in many of the mass shooters, is lazy and disingenuous at best. The Pulse nightclub, the San Bernadino shootings and the Fort Hood shootings come to mind as perhaps the exceptions to the rule, and I'm sure there are others. But to deny that fatherless households have no bearing on this, none whatsoever, and shouldn't be factored in at all, seems more like a culture war with an agenda than it does a serious effort to address any and all factors involved with mass shooters.

RocksInMyHead said:

Indeed, but, as far as I know, his assertion is not correct - or at least there isn't any data to back it up - so we're simply dealing with his opinion. And unless he's a sociologist who has studied the issue personally, his opinion on the matter is worthless and doesn't differentiate between blaming single parents and blaming the situation.

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His assertion may very well be incorrect, but my only point here is that he didn't say what he didn't say, and it is dishonest/lazy to refuse to acknowledge nuance.

I could agree that, as a politician, he should have been more specific, perhaps saying "fatherless homes" or "deadbeat and absent fathers", knowing that people will try to twist his words.

TheBear said:

Exactly. But at the same time, we should not toss out any possible factors if we're really being serious about solving this issue.

To summarily and out of hand dismiss the 'fatherless factor' in many of the mass shooters, is lazy and disingenuous at best. The Pulse nightclub, the San Bernadino shootings and the Fort Hood shootings come to mind as perhaps the exceptions to the rule, and I'm sure there are others. But to deny that fatherless households have no bearing on this, none whatsoever, and shouldn't be factored in at all, seems more like a culture war with an agenda than it does a serious effort to address any and all factors involved with mass shooters.

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It's just as disingenuous, if not more so, to add it as a factor without good evidence that it is one.

Knee V said:

I could agree that, as a politician, he should have been more specific, perhaps saying "fatherless homes" or "deadbeat and absent fathers", knowing that people will try to twist his words.

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I think we understand him quite correctly, but that doesn't make what he is saying based on anything we ought to respect.

variant said:

It's just as disingenuous, if not more so, to add it as a factor without good evidence.

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Alright. Let's go down the list. I'll start.

Nickolas Cruz.....

TheBear said:

Alright. Let's go down the list. I'll start.

Nickolas Cruz.....

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The blog I linked to in my earlier post showed years worth of evidence.

School shooters from 2017/2018

• James Eric Davis Jr., 19, 2018, grew up with both parents (father was one of his victims)
• Nikolas Jacob Cruz, 19, 2018, adopted at birth, adopted father died when he was six
• Gabe Parker, 15, 2018, parents divorced when he was five [unknown whether father was still in his life]
• William Edward Atchison, 21, 2017, lived with both parents
• Kevin Janson Neal, 44, 2017, [father situation unknown]
• Caleb Sharpe, 15, 2017, lived with both parents [obtained guns from father]
• Cedric Anderson, 53, 2017, [father situation unknown]

usexpat97 said:

In constant fear? Having to arm yourselves in order to defend yourselves against the other people who arm themselves? Going through metal detectors and backscatter machines every time you go to an airport, to school, to a concert, a sports event, or pretty much to go to the bathroom? Having to carry your personal stuff in transparent Ziploc bags, and having them and your own body searched all the time by people with guns?

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Is that the way you live? If so, why do you do it?

wing2000 said:

Sure, and I pointed to one alternative.

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You structed it as if that y were the only alternative. IMO It would actually be by far the least likely one.

grasping the after wind said:

I also do not completely agree with your assessment of the current educational opportunities. Certainly the rich and even more so the politically connected can game the system in college entrance. But you are ignoring the already in place social policies that favor low income minority candidates for admission to colleges and the grants and scholarships only available to low income or minority candidates for admission.

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I'm not ignoring them... I'm aware of what they are, and more importantly, I'm aware of their limitations and inadequacy with regards to how much help they can feasibly provide to a low income person trying to go to college.

The maximum for a Pell Grant (for low income students) is right around $5,000 per year for a student looking to attend a basic state school costing 40-50k. You may get an extra $1500 for being a minority or being exceptionally poor (like, foster care your entire life, living in your car poor)

To pretend that getting ~$6,000 of a $45,000 expense covered for a person who's poor is a "game-changer" is vastly over exaggerating the benefit and impact of these types of grants.

Being from a poor inner city environment, having to pay $39k instead of $45k is hardly the "life-changing" difference some people like to portray it as. It's still very much an uphill battle when compared to the kid from the suburbs who gets to go to college because his parents have enough money to send him.

grasping the after wind said:

I also would ask you to consider that there can be more than one way to succeed in life and that attending a college is only one way and is becoming less and less reliable in that regard.

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Statistically speaking, I'd disagree with you.

If you look the following data that lays out average income ranges by educational attainment...



Obviously there are outliers to this...there are high school dropouts who become millionaires, and people with master's degrees that don't amount to anything, but speaking in terms of the median income levels, it's very clear that level of educational attainment is 100% tied to higher median earnings.

RocksInMyHead said:

They exist, yes, but they require awareness of their existence on the part of prospective college students to actually be effective. Oftentimes low-performing schools don't have the best academic counseling services and/or counselors are primarily occupied with just making sure enough students pass so that the school can continue to receive funding. It turns into a case of academic triage - a single student wanting to go to college isn't going to be a primary concern to them because they have 100+ students who are on the verge of flunking out. There are certainly cases where a teacher or counselor is able to take the time to mentor a student and guide them through the process, but that's not going to be the case most of the time. That leaves the students on their own to figure things out, and most of the time, they're not going to find those resources without help.

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That single student wanting to go to college should probably take the bulk of the responsibility for finding out about what there is out there to access and not be totally dependent upon a teacher or counselor that, unlike that student him/herself , has no consuming reason to be overwhelmingly concerned with that particular student's future success. Waiting for a mentor to save the day rather than being proactive is foolish and unrealistic. If one finds one needs assistance one goes and gets it and does not wait for someone else to somehow know the individual's needs and supply them without being asked.

grasping the after wind said:

That single student wanting to go to college should probably take the bulk of the responsibility for finding out about what there is out there to access and not be totally dependent upon a teacher or counselor that, unlike that student him/herself , has no consuming reason to be overwhelmingly concerned with that particular student's future success. Waiting for a mentor to save the day rather than being proactive is foolish and unrealistic. If one finds one needs assistance one goes and gets it and does not wait for someone else to somehow know the individual's needs and supply them without being asked.

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So a poor kid in high school who wants to go to college better figure out the angles for himself. Unlike the rich kid whose parents and other relatives have been to college and know some of the angles to tell him already, the poor kid is entirely on his own--because according to you it is no part of a high school counselor's responsibility to help him out.

ThatRobGuy said:

I'm not ignoring them... I'm aware of what they are, and more importantly, I'm aware of their limitations and inadequacy with regards to how much help they can feasibly provide to a low income person trying to go to college.

The maximum for a Pell Grant (for low income students) is right around $5,000 per year for a student looking to attend a basic state school costing 40-50k. You may get an extra $1500 for being a minority or being exceptionally poor (like, foster care your entire life, living in your car poor)

To pretend that getting ~$6,000 of a $45,000 expense covered for a person who's poor is a "game-changer" is vastly over exaggerating the benefit and impact of these types of grants.

Being from a poor inner city environment, having to pay $39k instead of $45k is hardly the "life-changing" difference some people like to portray it as. It's still very much an uphill battle when compared to the kid from the suburbs who gets to go to college because his parents have enough money to send him.



Statistically speaking, I'd disagree with you.

If you look the following data that lays out average income ranges by educational attainment...

View attachment 262316

Obviously there are outliers to this...there are high school dropouts who become millionaires, and people with master's degrees that don't amount to anything, but speaking in terms of the median income levels, it's very clear that level of educational attainment is 100% tied to higher median earnings.

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Your little chart there has completely forgotten student loan debt. You have to subtract that from income to get a real picture of actual income. Then you might try a chart that was age specific . I suspect you would find that the older population has a much greater disparity in income by education level than the younger demographics and I would also expect that trend to continue as the rule of supply and demand has not been repealed. The more college graduates with Liberal Arts degrees chasing jobs the less money needed to attract one to your job. the fewer high school graduates willing to work at jobs that those with degrees in liberal arts consider beneath them the more money one needs to attract one to your job. Therefore, decreased pay and increased debt on one hand, debt free and increased wages on the other. The kids of the rich, especially the politically connected rich, will have an advantage no matter what else happens and under any system you would like to name. One can sit on one's hands and complain about that or one can take it as a challenge. If one chooses the latter one may succeed depending upon one's innate abilities , one's drive to succeed and what one decides defines success or one may fail despite those things but if one chooses the former there will be absolutely zero chance of any form of success.

Speedwell said:

So a poor kid in high school who wants to go to college better figure out the angles for himself. Unlike the rich kid whose parents and other relatives have been to college and know some of the angles to tell him already, the poor kid is entirely on his own--because according to you it is no part of a high school counselor's responsibility to help him out.

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Wrong. According to me, as any reasonable reading of my post would lead one to understand , It is the high school counselor's responsibility to help but not to take charge. It is not the high school counselor's responsibility to intuit the individual needs of every student that he/she is tasked with helping and then personally supply everything that the student needs without input or inquiry on the part of that student. The student bears the primary responsibility for his/her own life not some teacher or counselor. A minimal goal of public education ought to be that after 10 or 11 years in the system the students ought to be able to at least figure out something for themselves. At the very least where to go within that system to ask questions of those they have been told are there to help.

grasping the after wind said:

Wrong. According to me, as any reasonable reading of my post would lead one to understand , It is the high school counselor's responsibility to help but not to take charge. It is not the high school counselor's responsibility to intuit the individual needs of every student that he/she is tasked with helping and then personally supply everything that the student needs without input or inquiry on the part of that student.

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Good, because no one is claiming it should be otherwise.

The student bears the primary responsibility for his/her own life not some teacher or counselor. A minimal goal of public education ought to be that after 10 or 11 years in the system the students ought to be able to at least figure out something for themselves. At the very least where to go within that system to ask questions of those they have been told are there to help.

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If there are any such persons in the poor neighborhood school they go to. And that's the complaint--not that the counselor isn't taking the initiative to seek out promising students and guide them, but that too often there isn't counselor at all, or only one who is so overworked that it make access to him for college guidance difficult or impossible.

Speedwell said:

Good, because no one is claiming it should be otherwise. If there are any such persons in the poor neighborhood school they go to. And that's the complaint--not that the counselor isn't taking the initiative to seek out promising students and guide them, but that too often there isn't counselor at all, or only one who is so overworked that it make access to him for college guidance difficult or impossible.

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I think that the complaint I responded to was that the counselor isn't taking the initiative to seek out students and guide them through the process and without the counsellor mentoring them the student was not going to be able to figure anything out. Judge for yourself what the complaint was.

RocksInMyHead said:

a single student wanting to go to college isn't going to be a primary concern to them because they have 100+ students who are on the verge of flunking out. There are certainly cases where a teacher or counselor is able to take the time to mentor a student and guide them through the process, but that's not going to be the case most of the time. That leaves the students on their own to figure things out, and most of the time, they're not going to find those resources without help.

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I also don't see how a counselor being overworked keeps a student from taking the initiative and approaching the counselor or someone else that might be able to furnish the information needed. IMO the major stumbling block is not the high school staff being overworked or unavailable , though those may be the case idk for a fact either way on that, I suspect that the larger problem is disinterest in education on the part of either the student or parents. Those students that are themselves educationally motivated and/ or have parent's that see education as important will probably find whatever resources they need that are available.

grasping the after wind said:

I think that the complaint I responded to was that the counselor isn't taking the initiative to seek out students and guide them through the process and without the counsellor mentoring them the student was not going to be able to figure anything out. Judge for yourself what the complaint was.

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Nothing that RocksinMyHead posted implies that the counselor is supposed to take all of the initiative or that the student has no responsibility to seek him out.

I also don't see how a counselor being overworked keeps a student from taking the initiative and approaching the counselor or someone else that might be able to furnish the information needed. IMO the major stumbling block is not the high school staff being overworked or unavailable

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So the counselor being unavailable is not a barrier to the student finding out information from the counselor?

though those may be the case idk for a fact either way on that

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No, you don't know.

I suspect that the larger problem is disinterest in education on the part of either the student or parents. Those students that are themselves educationally motivated and/ or have parent's that see education as important will probably find whatever resources they need that are available.

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I'm not surprised that you suspect such a thing.

grasping the after wind said:

That single student wanting to go to college should probably take the bulk of the responsibility for finding out about what there is out there to access and not be totally dependent upon a teacher or counselor that, unlike that student him/herself , has no consuming reason to be overwhelmingly concerned with that particular student's future success.

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There's a middle ground between "student does it all himself" and "counselor does it all himself". I'm not arguing that students should be totally dependent on their parents/counselors. Also, I take issue with your assertion that an academic counselor has no reason to care about a student's future - that's literally the counselor's job.

Waiting for a mentor to save the day rather than being proactive is foolish and unrealistic. If one finds one needs assistance one goes and gets it and does not wait for someone else to somehow know the individual's needs and supply them without being asked.

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Counselors should provide resources and make students aware of options for low-income families - many poor students will avoid any discussion of college because they think that there's no way for them to afford it. Speaking from my own experiences here, my high school counselors held one or two college info sessions every year where they went over financial aid options, admissions requirements, and important deadlines. That's all useful information, especially for first-generation college students, and information that people who have never been to college or are afraid of the costs might not think to ask.

I also don't see how a counselor being overworked keeps a student from taking the initiative and approaching the counselor or someone else that might be able to furnish the information needed.

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A student can certainly approach an overworked counselor. However, an overworked counselor is less likely to be able to make time for the student.

IMO the major stumbling block is not the high school staff being overworked or unavailable , though those may be the case idk for a fact either way on that, I suspect that the larger problem is disinterest in education on the part of either the student or parents. Those students that are themselves educationally motivated and/ or have parent's that see education as important will probably find whatever resources they need that are available.

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If you put 100% of the impetus on the student, then students from poor families or students who are the first in their family to attend college are at an extreme disadvantage. This is actually something that I can speak from experience on - my mother was the first in her family to go to college. Comparing her experience to mine illustrates the differences pretty clearly.

In my mom's case, she knew that she wanted to go to college and did take the initiative. However, her counselors were not up to scratch and were more focused on just getting students to graduate as the high school she went to was pretty low-performing. They didn't actually know the admission requirements for the schools that she wanted to go to, so she wound up taking the wrong classes in high school and was missing several admission requirements for the UC system (and she may have missed the application deadline as well - I can't remember). She did eventually make it to college, but not at the schools that she wanted to attend. She received poor advice on her post-graduate education as well, and never went on to get the Masters that she wanted. My grandparents valued education and were supportive financially, but had nothing to offer in terms of knowledge of the admissions process - both had a high school education at best.

In comparison, I went to a very strong school academically that was very highly focused on making sure its students went to good colleges. Between good counselors and my parents, I knew every deadline that I had to meet, every class that I needed to take, and I had guidance through every step of the application process. I got into schools that I wanted to go to, doing the things that I wanted to do, despite being a relatively unmotivated, lazy student.

grasping the after wind said:

Your little chart there has completely forgotten student loan debt. You have to subtract that from income to get a real picture of actual income.

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Even with $100k of student loan debt (which is way high), a bachelor's degree would still pay for itself.

Then you might try a chart that was age specific . I suspect you would find that the older population has a much greater disparity in income by education level than the younger demographics and I would also expect that trend to continue as the rule of supply and demand has not been repealed. The more college graduates with Liberal Arts degrees chasing jobs the less money needed to attract one to your job. the fewer high school graduates willing to work at jobs that those with degrees in liberal arts consider beneath them the more money one needs to attract one to your job. Therefore, decreased pay and increased debt on one hand, debt free and increased wages on the other.

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You are incorrect. Over time, the earnings gap between college-educated workers and high school graduates has grown, not shrunk.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-su...series/cps-historical-time-series/taba-3.xlsx

In 1975, the mean earnings of a HS graduate were $7,843 and $12,332 for a college graduate, meaning the average college graduate earned 57.2% more.

In 2017, the mean earnings of a HS graduate were $38,145 and $67,763 for a college graduate, meaning the average college graduate earned 77.6% more.

Speedwell said:

Nothing that RocksinMyHead posted implies that the counselor is supposed to take all of the initiative or that the student has no responsibility to seek him out.

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Why have you made this an all or none situation ? I surely did not contend that such a situation existed. There is plenty of areas of responsibility to go around. I suggest any reading of the post would lead one conclude that RMH was placing the prime responsibility for the student's not being informed on someone other than the student. Where I place the prime responsibility on the student and the student's parents. I am not absolving others that may have an adjunct responsibility that they have failed to live up to.

Speedwell said:

So the counselor being unavailable is not a barrier to the student finding out information from the counselor?

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No, but to quote many people on barriers. "That is why they have ladders." If there is a barrier, one doesn't just throw up ones hands and resign oneself to failure , one finds a way around that barrier. A counselor not being available is a very much smaller barrier than say a border wall and much easier to work around if one is determined to get to the other side. I find it somewhat insulting to the students in question that anyone should suggest that they are not fully capable of finding a way around a barrier.