Where does this quote of Clement of Rome originate from?

zoidar

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This drives me crazy! I have tried to find where the following quote from 1st Epistle of Clement of Rome originates from. It"s not in my translation of the letter. Does anyone know?

God bless!

Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His?”
 
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All4Christ

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This drives me crazyI i have tried to find where the following quote from 1st Epistle of Clement of Rome originates from. It"s not in my translation of the letter. Does anyone know?

God bless!

Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His?”
Honestly, I don't see it anywhere in the epistle. The closest I can see is in Chapter 8:5:

Desiring, therefore, that all his beloved ones should partake of repentance, he hath confirmed it by his almighty will.
First Clement, 8:5 <http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-hoole.html>


It's missing the "and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent", as well as "But if any of those God wills should partake of the grace <snip> established by such a will of His"

I did a lot of searching online as well, and didn't come up with anything in any of the translations I have or found online.
 
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zoidar

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Thanks All4Christ for taking time to help me! As I understand it there are different manuscripts of the epistle. I don't know what the differences might be since I only have found one complete translation.

"II. From this Clement we have a Greek epistle to the Corinthians. It is often cited by the church fathers, then disappeared, but was found again, together with the fragments of the second epistle, in the Alexandrian codex of the Bible (now in the British Museum), and published by Patricius Junius (Patrick Young) at Oxford in 1633.1195 A second, less ancient, but more perfect manuscript from the eleventh century, containing the missing chapters of the first (with the oldest written prayer) and the whole of the second Epistle (together with other valuable documents), was discovered by Philotheos Bryennios, 1196 in the convent library of the patriarch of Jerusalem in Constantinople, and published in 1875. 1197 Soon afterwards a Syriac translation was found in the library of Jules Mohl, of Paris (d. 1876). 1198 We have thus three independent texts (A, C, S), derived, it would seem, from a common parent of the second century. The newly discovered portions shed new light on the history of papal authority and liturgical worship, as we have pointed out in previous chapters.1199"

Clement of Rome
 
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sfs

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Thanks All4Christ for taking time to help me! As I understand it there are different manuscripts of the epistle. I don't know what the differences might be since I only have found one complete translation.
I have a copy of the Greek text (along with Lightfoot's translation, as revised by Holmes). It's not a critical text, but it does list important variants. It doesn't have the extra text you're asking about, even in the apparatus. It looks to me like someone's comment on the text was incorporated into the quotation.
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks All4Christ for taking time to help me! As I understand it there are different manuscripts of the epistle. I don't know what the differences might be since I only have found one complete translation.

"II. From this Clement we have a Greek epistle to the Corinthians. It is often cited by the church fathers, then disappeared, but was found again, together with the fragments of the second epistle, in the Alexandrian codex of the Bible (now in the British Museum), and published by Patricius Junius (Patrick Young) at Oxford in 1633.1195 A second, less ancient, but more perfect manuscript from the eleventh century, containing the missing chapters of the first (with the oldest written prayer) and the whole of the second Epistle (together with other valuable documents), was discovered by Philotheos Bryennios, 1196 in the convent library of the patriarch of Jerusalem in Constantinople, and published in 1875. 1197 Soon afterwards a Syriac translation was found in the library of Jules Mohl, of Paris (d. 1876). 1198 We have thus three independent texts (A, C, S), derived, it would seem, from a common parent of the second century. The newly discovered portions shed new light on the history of papal authority and liturgical worship, as we have pointed out in previous chapters.1199"

Clement of Rome
Always happy to help :)

Certainly there are variants, and no doubt there are portions not included in some manuscripts.

I looked at 3 translations myself, as well as the text @sfs referenced. It is suspect to me, however, that no quote of this passage that I could find in books or articles has a reference to the exact location or even general section of the epistle.
 
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All4Christ

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So...I did some more research. This book has the additional text from the Syriac version (which does not include the extra phrases from the OP quote).

From the book:

“The newly recovered portion of the first or genuine Epistle of Clement consists, as I have said (p. 223), of about one-tenth of the whole. It stands immediately before the final prayer, commendation of the bearers, and benediction, which form the two brief chapters at the close of the epistle. It contains an earnest entreaty to the Corinthians to obey the injunctions contained in the letter and to heal their unhappy schisms; an elaborate prayer which extends over three
long chapters, commencing with an invocation and ending with an intercession for rulers and governors ; and then another appeal of some
length to the Corinthians, justifying the language of the letter and denouncing the sin of disobedience. The subject is not such as to admit of much historical matter; but the gain to our knowledge not withstanding is not inconsiderable.”

It appears that the fuller manuscript includes several chapters at the end of the first epistle, not at chapter 8.

In case you are interested, here is the text for the book I referenced, which includes the additional text from the epistle. The additional text starts at page 77.

https://ia600907.us.archive.org/12/items/anappendixconta00clemuoft/anappendixconta00clemuoft_bw.pdf
 
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Mathetes66

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Michael Horton, a Calvinist, in his book, 'Putting Amazing Back into Grace' (Baker, 2002), puts the exact quote you have in his book, trying to prove the TULIP before the time of Augustine.

Jack Cottrell did some research on Michael Horton & his claims. Here is what he found.

"I decided to do some checking myself. Under the cited texts that allegedly support “unconditional election,” Horton quotes Clement of Rome, claiming that Clement’s letter was written in A.D. 69 (several decades earlier than most scholars would put it). Part of the quote says, “Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness.”

"I found this in ch. 30 of Clement’s letter. The Greek says, hagiou oun meris hyparchontes poiēsōmen ta tou hagias mou panta. The fact is, there are no Greek words corresponding to “special elect” in this statement of Clement. The whole concept of election is READ INTO this quotation. Also, we should note that the context of the statement has nothing to do with election.

Another citation from Clement, in support of perseverance of the saints (the P doctrine), is given thus by Horton: “It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance & so not perish with the unbelieving & impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled & established by such a will of His?”

I had a very difficult time trying to find the section from which this quote SUPPOSEDLY comes. The closest I saw is in chapter 8. Here Clement cites several OT texts where God declares His desire for wicked Israel to repent, especially using Isaiah 1.

Then Clement says, “Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established….” The text ends here; it does not say what God has established; the translation I used adds the words, “these declarations,” i.e., the OT quotations. The Greek text reads: pantas oun tous agapētous autou boulomenos metanoias metaschein estērizen to pantokratorikō boulēmati autou. The “quotation” AS CITED BY HORTON does not even come close to what the original is saying. To say that it supports “perseverance of the saints” is pure fantasy; it also ignores the context.

Another ancient document cited several times by Horton is the so-called Epistle of Barnabas, which he dates as A.D. 70 & attributes to “Paul’s sidekick” in the Book of Acts. (FEW scholars, if any, agree with this.)

Hope that helps.
 
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zoidar

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So...I did some more research. This book has the additional text from the Syriac version.

From the book:

“The newly recovered portion of the first or genuine Epistle of Clement consists, as I have said (p. 223), of about one-tenth of the whole. It stands immediately before the final prayer, commendation of the bearers, and benediction, which form the two brief chapters at the close of the epistle. It contains an earnest entreaty to the Corinthians to obey the injunctions contained in the letter and to heal their unhappy schisms; an elaborate prayer which extends over three
long chapters, commencing with an invocation and ending with an intercession for rulers and governors ; and then another appeal of some
length to the Corinthians, justifying the language of the letter and denouncing the sin of disobedience. The subject is not such as to admit of much historical matter; but the gain to our knowledge not withstanding is not inconsiderable.”

It appears that the fuller manuscript includes several chapters at the end of the first epistle, not at chapter 8.

In case you are interested, here is the text for the book I referenced, which includes the additional text from the epistle. The additional text starts at page 77.

https://ia600907.us.archive.org/12/items/anappendixconta00clemuoft/anappendixconta00clemuoft_bw.pdf

Thanks! The Syriac version? I see! thanks for the digging, don't think I ever had found this out by my own. God bless you!
 
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zoidar

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Michael Horton, a Calvinist, in his book, 'Putting Amazing Back into Grace' (Baker, 2002), puts the exact quote you have in his book, trying to prove the TULIP before the time of Augustine.

Jack Cottrell did some research on Michael Horton & his claims. Here is what he found.

"I decided to do some checking myself. Under the cited texts that allegedly support “unconditional election,” Horton quotes Clement of Rome, claiming that Clement’s letter was written in A.D. 69 (several decades earlier than most scholars would put it). Part of the quote says, “Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness.”

"I found this in ch. 30 of Clement’s letter. The Greek says, hagiou oun meris hyparchontes poiēsōmen ta tou hagias mou panta. The fact is, there are no Greek words corresponding to “special elect” in this statement of Clement. The whole concept of election is READ INTO this quotation. Also, we should note that the context of the statement has nothing to do with election.

Another citation from Clement, in support of perseverance of the saints (the P doctrine), is given thus by Horton: “It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance & so not perish with the unbelieving & impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled & established by such a will of His?”

I had a very difficult time trying to find the section from which this quote SUPPOSEDLY comes. The closest I saw is in chapter 8. Here Clement cites several OT texts where God declares His desire for wicked Israel to repent, especially using Isaiah 1.

Then Clement says, “Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established….” The text ends here; it does not say what God has established; the translation I used adds the words, “these declarations,” i.e., the OT quotations. The Greek text reads: pantas oun tous agapētous autou boulomenos metanoias metaschein estērizen to pantokratorikō boulēmati autou. The “quotation” AS CITED BY HORTON does not even come close to what the original is saying. To say that it supports “perseverance of the saints” is pure fantasy; it also ignores the context.

Another ancient document cited several times by Horton is the so-called Epistle of Barnabas, which he dates as A.D. 70 & attributes to “Paul’s sidekick” in the Book of Acts. (FEW scholars, if any, agree with this.)

Hope that helps.

Thanks! My google searches also led me to Jack Cottrell's page. But apparently the translation is from the Syriac version. Bless!
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks! The Syriac version? I see! thanks for the digging, don't think I ever had found this out by my own. God bless you!

I enjoyed researching it :)

For clarification - this isn’t saying that the quote is from the Syriac version. In fact, it is saying that the additional part from the Syriac version is not the quote.

The book I referenced has the additional Syriac text in English - which does not include the quote in the OP. So...my original conclusion remains. I don’t see that text anywhere - and I honestly don’t think it is in any version.

Unfortunately, this is difficult to verify unless the full text (including chapter 8) is found in an English translation of the Syriac version.

For what it is worth, Lightfoot references some about the Syriac version. I didn’t see anything about the quote in the OP though in his footnotes.
 
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All4Christ

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One more note - the earliest quote I found of the exact phrase in the OP is from John Gill. He book is less than 100 years after the Syriac version was found. So....that suggests that either John was a Syriac scholar with early access to the fragments - or that the Syriac version is not where the extra sentences in the OP came from. John Gill was an English pastor - and there wasn’t even a full manuscript available to the public (in Syriac only) until 1899.
 
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zoidar

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I enjoyed researching it :)

For clarification - this isn’t saying that the quote is from the Syriac version. In fact, it is saying that the additional part from the Syriac version is not the quote.

The book I referenced has the additional Syriac text in English - which does not include the quote in the OP. So...my original conclusion remains. I don’t see that text anywhere - and I honestly don’t think it is in any version.

Unfortunately, this is difficult to verify unless the full text (including chapter 8) is found in an English translation of the Syriac version.

For what it is worth, Lightfoot references some about the Syriac version. I didn’t see anything about the quote in the OP though in his footnotes.

I thought the quote was in the Syriac version. Thanks for making it clear! :) Then I have to find an English version of the Syriac to be sure...

How many versions are there? Greek, Syriac...
 
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All4Christ

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I thought the quote was in the Syriac version. Thanks for making it clear! :) Then I have to find an English version of the Syriac to be sure...

How many versions are there? Greek, Syriac...
I think there are 5...quite a few!

Clement of Rome: the Manuscripts of "1 Clement"

My guess is that he used the Greek Version (listed as A in the link), since it was given to King Charles I in London (John Gill’s country) in 1697.
 
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All4Christ

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I think I have the answer! Here is a photocopy of John Gill’s book in the original version with Old English. Look at the location of the quotation marks:

86EED8ED-FFB0-4375-A4AE-859E23EB37B0.png

The Cause of God and Truth: Being an Examination of the Principal Passages of Scripture Made Use of by the Arminians, in Favour of Their Scheme; Particularly by Dr. Whitby, in His Discourse on the Five Points, Etc
 
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zoidar

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All4Christ

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Yes, that's it! But what manuscript has been used? Greek?
Not 100% sure, but I’m confident that it was the Greek. The Syriac wasn’t translated when John Gill was alive and wasn’t even found until John Gill was aged.

The important thing is that the quote ends at the section we notated about. The second and third sentence are not inside the quotation signs. The original book from John Gill never suggested that those sentences were in St. Clement’s writing. It was a commentary on his writing.
 
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zoidar

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Not 100% sure, but I’m confident that it was the Greek. The Syriac wasn’t translated when John Gill was alive and wasn’t even found until John Gill was aged.

The important thing is that the quote ends at the section we notated about. The second and third sentence are not inside the quotation signs. The original book from John Gill never suggested that those sentences were in St. Clement’s writing. It was a commentary on his writing.

"The second and third sentence are not inside the quotation signs. The original book from John Gill never suggested that those sentences were in St. Clement’s writing"

Great observance! I totally missed that! Looks like you pretty much solved the puzzle. :oldthumbsup:
 
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