Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

Bobber · Aug 14, 2019

DeaconDean said:
As far back as we can search in the scriptures, there is no precedence for this thought.

Did God chose Adam? No.

Did God chose Noah? Not according to scripture. Scriptures say:

"Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord" -Gen. 6:8 (KJV)

The basic mean of "grace" all through the scriptures carry the message of "unmerited favor". (cf Strongs #2580; Hebrew; chen; NT: Strongs #5485; charis)

When God said this about Noah, what had Noah done? What "faith" had Noad said been shown? What "work" had Noah performed? None! Nothing!

Sorry but you're not seeing the bigger picture of how scriptures apply. You can't just say grace means unmerited favor in EVERY sense of the word. You said Noah did nothing whatsoever...you're wrong. Genesis 6: 8,9 says Noah did demonstrate certain things....he was a just man, perfect in his generations and that he walked with God"

No he wasn't sinless but he was perfect in the sense that he was doing his best to follow God. He offered sacrifices, we know that and whatever else he was doing he gained God's favor. That certainly doesn't mean that seeking to be righteous in itself is going to save one....but God does see the sincerity of the heart and will take one to the next stage of hearing the gospel

God says too Blessed are the merciful...for they'll obtain mercy. That's not a degree of favor towards those who do something? So if you're not ever merciful do you qualify? With actual salvation yes but there's a place to be said in the bigger picture of understanding scripture that no you won't enjoy many various mercies because of things you don't do. Cornelius in Acts 10 is a prime example. What does it say,

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. Acts 10: 1-6

He prayed and was merciful, he gave alms and God was going to take him to the next step of salvation that if he would choose to believe in Christ for actual salvation. Acts 10: 43

twin1954 · Aug 25, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Thanks, Brother in Christ!

I mean, come on. An all-powerfull, all-wise, all-knowing God sent His Son into the world in an attempt to save every single human on the planet from suffering the torture of being literally burned for all eternity, ...an failed? Is such a god really omnipotent? The god of Arminianism is not.

The Blasphemies of Universal Redemption

Mountainmanbob · Aug 25, 2019

Just back from church been studying the book of Romans sure seems to support that Calvinistic view.
M-Bob

twin1954 · Aug 25, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Just back from church been studying the book of Romans sure seems to support that Calvinistic view.
M-Bob

So does the rest of the Bible.

Mountainmanbob · Aug 25, 2019

twin1954 said:
So does the rest of the Bible.

Good point.

Many are called.
(Few) are chosen.

And who chooses?
It ain't us.

M-Bob

eleos1954 · Aug 25, 2019

...

God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation

View attachment 261774

Click to expand...

Sovereign Grace · Aug 26, 2019

MDC said:
Amen! Arminianism is nothing more than a smokescreen for full blown pelagianism

No it is not my friend. Arminianism teaches that man needs draw by the Spirit before they can do anything pleasing towards God. However, they put all the emphasis on coming upon man, as he can either come or not come. Pelagianism teaches that man does not even need to be drawn. Semi-Pelagianism is closer to Arminianism than full-blown Pelagianism, but not by much. But most of those who would classify themselves as Arminians are really semi-Pelagians, and those who would classify themselves as semi-Pelagians, are really full-blown Pelagianists.

FreeinChrist · Aug 29, 2019

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Sound Doctrine · Sep 1, 2019

Arminianism is just that... a man-made doctrine, which is flawed. Calvinism in itself isn't what matters; it is what the Bible teaches that matters. Calvinism is from Biblical teaching as far as election and predestination are concerned. Man's will is against God. Jesus' will is to save everyone. Jesus came not to do His will, but the Father's will. The Father's will is that of all that the Father gives to the Son, He should lose no one. 2 Peter 3:9 is, as is the whole letter, addressed to the saints, about the saints, and only the saints. This according to 2 Peter 1:1-2. Read John 17. It is a prayer from Jesus to the Father regarding those whom the Father gives Him to be protected and loved, not for the world.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 1, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian and I fully agree with your assessment of Arminianism. They believe that salvation can be lost without any direct statement to that effect. In fact, all they've got are verses that seem to imply that salvation can be lost. But every one of those verses can be explained from a biblical standpoint that don't involve losing salvation. So they just ignore those explanations.

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

Is this a problem? No. It's part of God's plan. Do you fully understand every aspect of His plan? I sure don't. So we can't make assumptions from our own limited opinions.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

Is this wrong? No, in fact it's actually straight up biblical. But that doesn't excuse the illogical Arminian doctrine of loss of salvation.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

I don't see any "middle ground" here. Either one believes that Christ died for everyone, or they cannot believe any of these verses.

And the weak defense that "all" and "whole world" only means "all the elect" or "the whole world of the elect" is patently false. There isn't any verse that says what Calvinists claim about "all" or "whole world". And none of the contexts where they occur supports the notion that "all" means only 1 subgroup of humans.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Your question seems to challenge God's plan. There's an easy answer for this. God's plan of salvation is something that angels long to look at (observe).

1 Peter 1:10-12
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

So here's the easy answer: God's plan of salvation demonstrates His perfect and total fairness to mankind. He offers a free gift. Man is free to either accept the gift or reject the gift. And God has made clear the consequence of either choice.

So, in reality, God sends no one to hell. They actually send themselves to hell, for rejecting God's free gift.

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

Nonsense. Creating people does NOT lead to the notion that God "seals their fate". They alone seal their own fate.

But as I recall, Calvinists reject that man has free will.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

Wrong. Because mankind does have freedom of choice, it makes perfect sense for God to express His will that all be saved, even when He knows many won't.

By desiring all to be saved (2 Tim 2:4,6), shows God's grace to everyone.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

UNBIBLICAL
The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

Nope. You've just expressed the unbiblical Calvinist notion that man does not have free will, and that God essentially chooses who will believe. But you couch it in ambiguous terms, like "God determines that we will believe". What do you mean by "determine" in your claim? Since you believe in God's omniscience, to determine can mean simply that God already knows who will believe. iow, He "determines" by His omniscience.

However, in my extensive interactions with Calvinists, I know what is meant. God is the cause of belief in the so-called elect.

However, if the Calvinist is so biblical, please provide the very best and clearest verse that says that God chooses who will believe, since that is your actual position.

In the meantime, I'll share a verse that refutes your actual position.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

The Calvinist preference would be this:
God was pleased to cause the elect to believe.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

None of these verses states that Christ died only for some special group. Or that God causes anyone to believe.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

You're going to have to address these very verses that I shared and prove from the context that Paul, John and Peter couldn't have meant the entire human race.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.

You'll notice that I didn't mention 2 Pet 3:9.

But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc.

This is just a Calvinist spin on the verses that very plainly SAY that Christ died for everyone.

The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

I notice that the word "all" or "whole world" isn't even mentioned in this verse. So your "example" fails to be relevant.

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

And the context makes this crystal clear. But you just can't go to context of 1 John 1-2:2 and prove that "whole world" means something other than everyone else.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

If true, then please share the single best and clearest verse that Christ died for a "definite group of people", or that God predestines people to salvation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

You loosely speak of Arminians being illogical, and here you go, being illogical.

If Calvinism were true, there would be NO NEED of evangelization.

If God chooses who will believe, they WILL believe. So no need of evangelization.

Sound Doctrine · Sep 2, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
If Calvinism were true, there would be NO NEED of evangelization.

If God chooses who will believe, they WILL believe. So no need of evangelization.

No. God has chosen who will believe from the foundation of the world.-Rev. 17:8. We choose to come to Christ because He first chose us. - John 15:16, 19, Psalm 65:4. We evangelize because God has chosen that process by which men receive the saving faith. - "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." We are commanded to preach the word. Be instant in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Those are commandments to preach and to do the work of an evangelist. It is up to God as to who will hear and who will not, according to whosoever He has called and chosen to believe. Arminianism is a wicked, false doctrine, which promotes other wicked false doctrines such as being able to lose one's salvation. How? By sin? No. Jesus died for all our sins. By leaving the faith? No. Jesus leaves the flock to go after and bring back any who go astray. God is in control.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 2, 2019

I stated:
"If Calvinism were true, there would be NO NEED of evangelization.

If God chooses who will believe, they WILL believe. So no need of evangelization."

Sound Doctrine said:
No.

What do you mean by "no"? Please clarify.

God has chosen who will believe from the foundation of the world.-Rev. 17:8.

Rev 17:8 - The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

No, the verse certainly doesn't say that God chooses who will believe. Not even Eph 1:4 says that.

We choose to come to Christ because He first chose us. - John 15:16, 19, Psalm 65:4.

Please examine John 6:70 and tell me when Judas came to Christ in a saving way.

"Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”"

We evangelize because God has chosen that process by which men receive the saving faith.

Your statement doesn't change the FACT that IF God has chosen who will believe, then nothing can or will stop God's decree.

- "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." We are commanded to preach the word. Be instant in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Those are commandments to preach and to do the work of an evangelist.

None of this supports the Calvinist belief that God chooses who will believe.

It is up to God as to who will hear and who will not, according to whosoever He has called and chosen to believe.

Except you have no verses that even tell us that God chooses or elects who will believe.

He certainly does choose who He will save. The Bible even says so.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

That's who God chooses to save: those who believe. Clear as can be. And nothing about God electing anyone to believe.

Arminianism is a wicked, false doctrine, which promotes other wicked false doctrines such as being able to lose one's salvation.

I fully agree with you! And Calvinism has many false doctrines as well.

For example: TULIP

Total depravity - the biblical truth is that man cannot save himself. But Calvinists go much farther and claim that man cannot even believe apart from regeneration. This is patently false.

Eph 2:5 equates being saved with being born again.
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The second red phrase defines the first red phrase. They are equated. You can't be made alive and not saved, nor can you be saved and not made alive.

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Notice that salvation is "through faith". This means that faith must be present in order to be saved. If Calvinism were correct, Paul should have written: by grace you have been saved, through election.

But he didn't. Not even close.

Unconditional election. Calvinists claim that election is unto salvation. However there aren't ANY verses that say this. In fact, in a thorough study of ALL the words belonging to election (the noun, verb and adjective), NONE of them link election to salvation. Zero.

But, all of them link election to service.

Here's the examples of what the Bible describes as "elect"

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."

2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…

5. Other elections:

Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

Did God the Father choose to save Jesus, His Son? Of course not. But He IS the chosen One.

Did God choose to save angels? The Bible says nothing about angels being saved.

Did God save ALL of Israel in the OT. Of course not. But they ARE His chosen people.

Election is for service. Not salvation.

Limited atonement: Jesus Christ died for everyone. 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2.

Please don't use the very weak argument that "all" doesn't always mean everyone. Of course not. Context tells us the scope. And unless there is some obvious limiting clue, when the Bible says "all", it really means "everyone".

Irresistible grace: Oh really? What do you do with Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Perseverance of the saints: Paul wrote that in later times, some will abandon the faith.

1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

The TULIP has wilted.

JM · Sep 2, 2019

I've been studying St. Thomas Aquinas the last few months and I'm stunned at the beauty of his arguments and they tend to land on the Augustinian side of things. I recommend his Summa to anyone with ears to hear.

Yours it the Lord,

jm

fhansen · Sep 2, 2019

Dave-W said:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The God of Calvinism could not predestine EVERYONE to salvation if that was what He willed? 2 Peter seems to be saying that. Not wanting any to perish. All to repent.

"All" means all. But if men love darkness rather than HIS light, they can choose to stay in the darkness. This Calvinism denies.

Is God a hypocrite? Did He want Adam to disobey when He commanded him not to? Is God evil? Did He create people to be sinners, without regard to their choice in the matter? If so, is He really worth our bothering with?

Does all the drama: the centuries of human pain, suffering, victimization, sin, evil, and death have no reason, no purpose, if God just predetermines everything? Wouldn't it better to just have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, or restored him immediately afterwards, and stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from day one?

Instead, the evil we've experienced in this life has a purpose, to teach us, to drive us, like Prodigals, back to the Father, to the ultimate Good, to God, if we're willing.

Sound Doctrine · Oct 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The Calvinist preference would be this:
God was pleased to cause the elect to believe.

Psalm 65:4 - "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." God chooses and causes us to believe. That is not for everyone, but for God's chosen from the foundation of the world. He is in control of ALL things, including who is saved and who isn't. In Matthew 13, read the parable of the tares and Jesus' explanation of that parable. The chosen are God's wheat. The unchosen are the Devil's tares. One does not choose to be a wheat or tare. This is determined by God, not according to our works, but by God from the foundation of the world. Jesus came not to do His will (which is to save the whole world), but the will of the Father (which is for Jesus to save all that the Father gives to Him.) -
“37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:37-40

John 6:63 - 66 "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’ 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Conclusion: Arminianism is against the teachings of Scripture... just a man-made doctrine, not God breathed. The Scriptures are God breathed.

Albion · Oct 13, 2019

Unfortunately for us, either Arminianism or Calvinism is true--depending on which Bible verses we consider to be the most compelling. There is evidence for both.

However, it may be that Calvinism (Predestination, OSAS, etc.) may be the more logical and orderly of the two views. That doesn't in itself make it the correct understanding, however.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2019

I said:
"The Calvinist preference would be this:
God was pleased to cause the elect to believe."

Sound Doctrine said:
Psalm 65:4 - "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." God chooses and causes us to believe.

The verse you have quoted says NOTHING about God causing anyone to believe.

Here are some of most common English translations:

New International Version
Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.

New Living Translation
What joy for those you choose to bring near, those who live in your holy courts. What festivities await us inside your holy Temple.

English Standard Version
Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Berean Study Bible
Blessed is the one You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts! We are filled with the goodness of Your house, the holiness of Your temple.

New American Standard Bible
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.

What seems so obvious to me is that the verse teaches that God brings near to Him those He has chosen. This doesn't answer the question of "chosen for what, specifically". And my previous challenge remains; find any verse that actually, in plain English, says that God causes who will believe.

There is nothing in this verse that says God causes who will believe.

That is not for everyone, but for God's chosen from the foundation of the world. He is in control of ALL things, including who is saved and who isn't.

I invite you to address all of my points about what the Bible does say about election.

It's about service, not salvation. If that were true, then God chose (elected) His own Son to be saved. How much sense does that make?

In Matthew 13, read the parable of the tares and Jesus' explanation of that parable. The chosen are God's wheat. The unchosen are the Devil's tares. One does not choose to be a wheat or tare. This is determined by God, not according to our works, but by God from the foundation of the world. Jesus came not to do His will (which is to save the whole world), but the will of the Father (which is for Jesus to save all that the Father gives to Him.) -
“37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:37-40

John 6:63 - 66 "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’ 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Conclusion: Arminianism is against the teachings of Scripture... just a man-made doctrine, not God breathed. The Scriptures are God breathed.

First, to be clear, I am just as much NOT an Arminian as I am NOT a Calvinist.

It seems that both Arms and Cals seem oblivious to the fact that they aren't the only theologies out there.

And I believe that both of those theologies are really "out there", theologically speaking.

I have proven from all the examples of who the elect are that election isn't about salvation at all.

So, please address the biblical examples, and the fact that the Bible does NOT say that God causes people to believe, or that He chooses who will believe.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2019

Albion said:
Unfortunately for us, either Arminianism or Calvinism is true--depending on which Bible verses we consider to be the most compelling. There is evidence for both.

Both have bits of truth in them, which supports your claim of "evidence for both".

But there is also evidence that parts of both theologies are directly against Scripture.

Calvinism's errors
1. total depravity includes the idea that man is unable to believe in his unregenerate state. In fact, the Bible says several times that men REFUSED to believe. And REFUSED to repent. So, that proves an ability TO do those things.

2. unconditional election is false due to its idea that election is to salvation. Election is to service, which fits EVERY example of who the Bible describes as elect. See post #492

3. limited atonement is false because of the verses that state that Christ died for all.

I could go on.

On the Arminian side, their major failure is the claim that salvation can be lost.

However, it may be that Calvinism (Predestination, OSAS, etc.) may be the more logical and orderly of the two views. That doesn't in itself make it the correct understanding, however.

The biblical view of predestination is that all believers will be conformed to be like God's Son.

Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

The biblical view of OSAS is found in Jesus' very clear and plainly stated words in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Albion · Oct 13, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Both have bits of truth in them, which supports your claim of "evidence for both".

But there is also evidence that parts of both theologies are directly against Scripture.

Calvinism's errors
1. total depravity includes the idea that man is unable to believe in his unregenerate state. In fact, the Bible says several times that men REFUSED to believe. And REFUSED to repent. So, that proves an ability TO do those things.

Not necessarily. If the person is not equipped with the ability to choose God, he of course is going to operate like a person who has no knowledge of the truth and is, by nature, opposed to God. We cannot suppose that he willfully rejects God although he was capable of accepting Him.

2. unconditional election is false due to its idea that election is to salvation. Election is to service, which fits EVERY example of who the Bible describes as elect. See post #492

I disagree. The term is normally used to mean chosen to receive Grace necessary for the person to have Faith and thus be saved..

3.limited atonement is false because of the verses that state that Christ died for all.

This is the most easily questioned of the five TULIP points, but it doesn't wash out the others.

renniks · Oct 13, 2019

Sound Doctrine said:
He is in control of ALL things, including who is saved and who isn't.

If he is actively controlling everything, then he lies a lot in scripture, when he claims that his people oppose him.

Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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