Atheists are Dangerous!

Ophiolite · Aug 27, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
True, I know, I've worked with animals quite a lot. Generally though the cause, effect and remedy are simpler. Not so much with humans. With humans there is no such thing as 'all circumstances' being fully examined, more like a bit of knowledge, some rough estimates, and a process of finding a way forward. I worked in crisis management for years.
It's hard to know where to start. I'll have a think about it, but I have a lot of relate thoughts about this and I have a lot of other things to do, so I'll post another time.

No rush. Statistically I should be alive for a further five and half years, so just fit it in when you can. (If I don't reply then the statistics didn't work out!)

Tom 1 · Aug 27, 2019

Ophiolite said:
five and half years

If it takes me that long, I'll punch myself in the face on your behalf.

loveofourlord · Aug 31, 2019

There is a expression, to be a militant christian or muslim you have to blow people or buildings up, to be militant atheist you just have to strongly disagree with religions.

Cimorene · Aug 31, 2019

jayem said:
I haven't read all 100+ posts in this thread. This may have been stated already,

I have absolutely no intention, desire, or expectation to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I just don't want government at any level to show preference to one lawful religion over another, or to favor religion over non-religion. And I don't want private businesses that act as public accommodations to do the same.

That's how pretty much how all normal atheists are I think? At least ppl my age. Idk maybe with older ppl bc they got a flak or something they felt like they had to be more aggressive or something? And that's how these stereotypes of atheists were made? All atheists I know are just normal people they're usually nicer than Christians actually.

Speedwell · Aug 31, 2019

Cimorene said:
That's how pretty much how all normal atheists are I think? At least ppl my age. Idk maybe with older ppl bc they got a flak or something they felt like they had to be more aggressive or something? And that's how these stereotypes of atheists were made? All atheists I know are just normal people they're usually nicer than Christians actually.

Not necessarily. But if you're looking for a generalization I would say that it is Christians who don't want to show atheists (or anybody else) the tolerance that Jayem requested who think that atheists are dangerous.

Tom 1 · Aug 31, 2019

loveofourlord said:
There is a expression, to be a militant christian or muslim you have to blow people or buildings up, to be militant atheist you just have to strongly disagree with religions.

True if you discount communism. If you don’t, however...

stevevw · Aug 31, 2019

loveofourlord said:
There is a expression, to be a militant christian or muslim you have to blow people or buildings up, to be militant atheist you just have to strongly disagree with religions.

A militant Christian is an oxymoron. Christian means Christ-ian being Christ like and as far as I know Christ is not a militant. I would say that these people are just a militant full stop.

Tinker Grey · Sep 1, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
True if you discount communism. If you don’t, however...

Communism ain't atheism (nor vice versa).

The problem is unquestioning ideological commitment.

J03y · Sep 1, 2019

The majority of my friends are either atheists or agnostics and they're no more dangerous any other person. Moreover, if we look at the current leading motivations for terrorism today, the lack of believing in God is far from a leading one. Remember that the Roman polytheists called the the early church atheists because of all the gods they lacked. Atheists are just people who don't think God is evident. I think it's evident that they're wrong but doesn't necessitate they're morally wrong.

Tom 1 · Sep 1, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
Communism ain't atheism (nor vice versa).

The problem is unquestioning ideological commitment.

Yes, to a point I agree, but atheism was one of the factors that led to communism. That is clear from Marx's earliest writings, for reasons he doesn't specify he was very angry at God, or the idea of God at least although the way he put it is very personal. Atheism is bound up very tighly in communist ideas, in many ways it was a deliberate move away from things that religion advocates - the importance family being one of the main ones, as well as Marx's later notion of 'the opium of the people'. And that is barely making a tiny scratch on the surface.

Tinker Grey · Sep 1, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
Yes, to a point I agree, but atheism was one of the factors that led to communism. That is clear from Marx's earliest writings, for reasons he doesn't specify he was very angry at God, or the idea of God at least although the way he put it is very personal. Atheism is bound up very tighly in communist ideas, in many ways it was a deliberate move away from things that religion advocates - the importance family being one of the main ones, as well as Marx's later notion of 'the opium of the people'. And that is barely making a tiny scratch on the surface.

Marx is frequently misinterpreted. Here is the full quote

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.[2]

{Emphasis added}
Opium of the people - Wikipedia

You can see here that Marx sees religion as a comfort to people that is necessary given the human condition. The goal of Marxism (as Marx expressed it, not as it was distorted) is to remove the need for comforting illusions by alleviating the suffering of humanity.

I haven't read Marx's writings, but I would say that this passage doesn't sound angry at all.

Prodigal Son returns · Sep 1, 2019

The thing about atheism is that morality is subjective to how an individual feels, therefore there is no unity in the moral framework between one atheist to another making it impossible to agree on morals and law.
The other confusing thing is how hostile they are towards Christianity. The stern objection to it even though they themselves have no alternate theory that has conclusive proof is absurd.
It seems to be a mindless movement to tear down religion, as if they know how to create a utopia.
We've seen the result of a secular society, it was unsuccessful to say the least. They have little knowledge of history

comana · Sep 1, 2019

Prodigal Son returns said:
The thing about atheism is that morality is subjective to how an individual feels, therefore there is no unity in the moral framework between one atheist to another making it impossible to agree on morals and law.
The other confusing thing is how hostile they are towards Christianity. The stern objection to it even though they themselves have no alternate theory that has conclusive proof is absurd.
It seems to be a mindless movement to tear down religion, as if they know how to create a utopia.

Atheism is not a movement. It is not an organization. Some atheists are hostile towards religions other (most) go about their lives without much thought to religions.

Tom 1 · Sep 1, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
Marx is frequently misinterpreted. Here is the full quote {Emphasis added}
Opium of the people - Wikipedia

You can see here that Marx sees religion as a comfort to people that is necessary given the human condition. The goal of Marxism (as Marx expressed it, not as it was distorted) is to remove the need for comforting illusions by alleviating the suffering of humanity.

I haven't read Marx's writings, but I would say that this passage doesn't sound angry at all.

Yeah, I meant an earlier bit of writing, just after he graduated. I don't have it in English but I'll have a stab at translating it if you like.

Nithavela · Sep 1, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
Yeah, I meant an earlier bit of writing, just after he graduated. I don't have it in English but I'll have a stab at translating it if you like.

I'll be happy to check and validate the translation if you'd accept me as a neutral observer.

Tom 1 · Sep 1, 2019

Nithavela said:
I'll be happy to check and validate the translation if you'd accept me as a neutral observer.

Not in the original German I'm afraid, in Romanian.

Nithavela · Sep 1, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
Not in the original German I'm afraid, in Romanian.

Tell you what, you tell me the source and I'll translate it for you from the original german version, if I can find it.

Tom 1 · Sep 1, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
Marx is frequently misinterpreted. Here is the full quote {Emphasis added}
Opium of the people - Wikipedia

You can see here that Marx sees religion as a comfort to people that is necessary given the human condition. The goal of Marxism (as Marx expressed it, not as it was distorted) is to remove the need for comforting illusions by alleviating the suffering of humanity.

I haven't read Marx's writings, but I would say that this passage doesn't sound angry at all.

Here are some excerpts from some of Marx's writings as a student/recently graduated:

A god ripped away all that I had
Under a curse and dragged by the wheel of fate
All of his lights have faded without my being able to grasp them
There is nothing left to me but revenge
I will build myself a throne above the clouds
Cold and terrible it's heights will be; for its fortress - superstitious horror
-for its Lord - the darkest agony

...

The mists of hell rise up and fill the mind
Until I go insane and my heart is forever changed.
See this sword?
The prince of darkness gave it to me.
For me it marks time and gives ever more powerful signs.
I dance to the tune of death.

And so on. There are a few like that. There are various references in the poems to different passages from the bible etc, whatever he was going through, it was pretty intense. Obviously different people will read different things into it.

I've spent quite a bit of time in communist and post communist countries, whatever the initial intentions there's an underlying bleakness that comes right out of atheistic thinking. Cuba interestingly under the regime never had much truck with the religious so long as they kept it to themselves.
Communism takes away because at its core is a spiritual black hole. It sucks everything into itself and gives nothing back. The best representation I've seen of it is Olbram Zoubeks 'disappearing man' statue in Prague.

Tom 1 · Sep 1, 2019

Nithavela said:
Tell you what, you tell me the source and I'll translate it for you from the original german version, if I can find it.

This is the source in Romanian: Karl Marx sau Isus Cristos?

Nithavela · Sep 1, 2019

Tom Farebrother said:
This is the source in Romanian: Karl Marx sau Isus Cristos?

Really? Marx wrote that article?

Does it have any primary sources listed? Otherwise it's just claiming stuff without evidence.

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