A perfect example of how Satan deceives the church

In the Franciscan tradition, "flesh" = our ego. This passage was written to *believers*....demonstrating there is a struggle between things that are "of the world" or "of the flesh" and "of the Spirit".


Quoting from linked article:
In today’s reading Jesus condemns the Pharisees on several counts. They are more attentive to their own ego than to the love of God. Being important is very important to them. Their teaching makes God’s law–which is supposed to be a source of joy–into a set of burdens. This is not the kind of religious practice that is pleasing to God.

Sharing the Word for October 17, 2018

Quoting from another article: The ego is that part of the self that wants to be significant, central, and important by itself, apart from anybody else. It wants to be both separate and superior. It is defended and self-protective by its very nature. It must eliminate the negative to succeed at this. The ego is what Jesus called an “actor,” usually translated from the Greek as “hypocrite” (see Matthew 23). - https://cac.org/ego-the-actor-2016-07-12/

How does God “condemn sin in the flesh” on Jesus’ cross? (Romans 8:3)


Our sin is condemned by being exposed in the crucifixion of Jesus.

Here is Richard Rohr’s account of how God “condemned sin in the flesh” on Jesus’ cross (thanks to Diana Trautwein for sharing this in a Facebook status update today):

The significance of Jesus’ wounded body is his deliberate and conscious holding of the pain of the world and refusing to send it elsewhere. The wounds were not necessary to convince God that we were lovable; the wounds are to convince us of the path and the price of transformation. They are what will happen to you if you face and hold sin in compassion instead of projecting it in hatred.

Jesus’ wounded body is an icon for what we are all doing to one another and to the world. Jesus’ resurrected body is an icon of God’s response to our crucifixions. The two images contain the whole message of the Gospel.

A naked, bleeding, wounded, crucified man is the most unlikely image for God, a most illogical image for Omnipotence (which is most peoples’ natural image of God). Apparently, we have got God all wrong! Jesus is revealing a very central problem for religion, by coming into the world in this most unexpected and even unwanted way. The cross of Jesus was a mirror held up to history, so we could utterly change our normal image of God. [Dancing Standing Still: Healing the World from a Place of Prayer, pp 73, 76-78]

BCsenior said:

IMO, you didn't go far enough as per the requirement.
There's much more to overcoming than just believing the gospel.
As the OP points out.

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Well the OP happens to be in error.

BCsenior said:

Here is Jesus’ definition of who an overcomer really is:
Revelation 3:21
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

What did Jesus overcome?

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Jesus overcame death by His resurrection. That is what He is promising to the martyrs there in Rev 3;21.

mkgal1 said:

Jesus overcame death by His resurrection. That is what He is promising to the martyrs there.

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THAT is what He has promised to everyone who Believes.

JIMINZ said:

THAT is what He has promised to everyone who Believes.

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I don't disagree with that, but Rev 3:21 - I believe - is referring to a specific "overcoming" that I believe was specific to the first century martyrs.
Revelation Chapter 3

Revelation 6:10 And they cried out in a loud voice, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?"

mkgal1 said:

I don't disagree with that, but Rev 3:21 - I believe - is referring to a specific "overcoming" that I believe was specific to the first century martyrs.
Revelation Chapter 3

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Rev. 3:20,21
20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Verse 20 fits nicely with verse 21 don't you think, when showing who is actually being spoken to, Yes they were Laodiceans but when "If any man" is used, it speaks of every man who may come and is not specific about Laodiceans or only those of the first century Church.

BCsenior said:

IMO, you didn't go far enough as per the requirement.
There's much more to overcoming than just believing the gospel.
As the OP points out.

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Faith + Works is a false gospel and the worship of another God and it leads to condemnation.

Again.. seeing more clearly.
"Being "cleansed of all sin" in 1 John 1:9 occurs after we confess our sins.
John neglects to mention repentance also ... to stop doing them!
What good is confession without repentance also?"

So John "fail to care for properly, not pay proper attention to, disregard, fail to do something" 1 John 1:9.

"NO ONE will be allowed into heaven who has unrepentant (unforgiven) sin!" < chapter and verse please because this is not written.

Here in is the meat.. we put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. For that which is born of God cannot sin. There is no .. might sin.. can sin. NO! "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Thats the meat. So much of these threads forgive me are milk. Paul "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He keeps going "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"

What did GOD make NEW in you that was BORN OF GOD? That is what can not ever sin! This flesh can.. it always wants to sin. We are no longer bound to sin.. It has no more power over us. This flesh that love to sin.. will never enter heaven. Its not changed yet. This again is the meat. I sit in heavenly places And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Do we know why we CAN 'Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Do you think we do this with just words..or a nice thought?

Overcome, victorious, conquers, wins the victory, the victor, "to conquer, overpower, triumph, be victorious, prevail, subdue.

We hear "blotted out book of life" ok..then whats the lambs book?

To some that truly don't know.. you have nothing to fear.. Fear is not of God.. He never uses it. No man knows who is written in HIS books. No man can see the heart. And we are not saved if we follow what some man/woman preaches on this earth. John 3 16.. Rom 10 9-10 Rev 3 20. He saves.. man can not. You believe what He wrote... I am sorry but I really hurt for the weak in faith.. I know what that is like

Anyone who says they never sin is not being honest. Even the tiniest thing can be a sin.

We have to turn to Jesus and repent when we sin.

Oscarr said:

Faith + Works is a false gospel and the worship of another God and it leads to condemnation.

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James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Blade said:

Again.. seeing more clearly.
"Being "cleansed of all sin" in 1 John 1:9 occurs after we confess our sins.
John neglects to mention repentance also ... to stop doing them!
What good is confession without repentance also?"

So John "fail to care for properly, not pay proper attention to, disregard, fail to do something" 1 John 1:9.

"NO ONE will be allowed into heaven who has unrepentant (unforgiven) sin!" < chapter and verse please because this is not written.

Here in is the meat.. we put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. For that which is born of God cannot sin. There is no .. might sin.. can sin. NO! "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Thats the meat. So much of these threads forgive me are milk. Paul "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He keeps going "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"

What did GOD make NEW in you that was BORN OF GOD? That is what can not ever sin! This flesh can.. it always wants to sin. We are no longer bound to sin.. It has no more power over us. This flesh that love to sin.. will never enter heaven. Its not changed yet. This again is the meat. I sit in heavenly places And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Do we know why we CAN 'Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Do you think we do this with just words..or a nice thought?

Overcome, victorious, conquers, wins the victory, the victor, "to conquer, overpower, triumph, be victorious, prevail, subdue.

We hear "blotted out book of life" ok..then whats the lambs book?

To some that truly don't know.. you have nothing to fear.. Fear is not of God.. He never uses it. No man knows who is written in HIS books. No man can see the heart. And we are not saved if we follow what some man/woman preaches on this earth. John 3 16.. Rom 10 9-10 Rev 3 20. He saves.. man can not. You believe what He wrote... I am sorry but I really hurt for the weak in faith.. I know what that is like

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There is a difference between being a slave to sin where the person cannot chose otherwise, and actually sees no wrong in sinful acts and actually enjoys them; and the true believer who is conscious of temptation and the weakness of his flesh, and treats these as unwelcome, like bed bugs in his bed which bite and cause unpleasant irritation.

Lost4words said:

James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

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The works that James talks about are the works that the Holy Spirit does in a true believer and are the ones that God has predestined in the believer through the workmanship of Christ within him.

The works that those who have "churchianity", following rituals and ceremonies, and have more allegiance to a church, its teachings, dictates and clergy, bowing to statues and praying to other entities than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are those dead works that lead a person into condemnation and separate a person from Christ and His finished work on Calvary.

True Christianity, as quite separate from "churchianity", is total faith, trust and allegiance to the Person of Christ, while "churchianty" is allegiance to a church and puts its authority over and above the Person of Christ.

"Churchianity" is a false gospel and worships another God and believes in another Christ and treads the blood of the Christ of the Bible underfoot.

Lost4words said:

Anyone who says they never sin is not being honest. Even the tiniest thing can be a sin.

We have to turn to Jesus and repent when we sin.

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Question, do you personally have the Holy Spirit indwelling you?

If so, this is what John said to those Believers who do.

1 Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
But why, how can this be?
for his seed remaineth in him:
In other words, Gods' seed is the Holy Spirit.
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It's not anything a Believer does to not sin, it is solely because the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer, just as He did Jesus Christ who was also without sin.

Not only are we indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but we are IN Christ as well.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So the end of the matter is.
Jesus is in God
We are in Christ
Jesus is in us
The Holy Spirit is in us

But we still sin, how exactly does that work?

JIMINZ said:

Rev. 3:20,21
20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Verse 20 fits nicely with verse 21 don't you think, when showing who is actually being spoken to, Yes they were Laodiceans but when "If any man" is used, it speaks of every man who may come and is not specific about Laodiceans or only those of the first century Church.

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Revelation 3:6 -If you can hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the seven churches.

Revaluation 3:20 - Look! I'm standing at the door and knocking. If any [being addressed] hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to be with them, and will have dinner with them, and they will have dinner with me.

Revelation 3:7-11
These are the words of the one who is holy and true, who has the key of David. Whatever he opens, no one will shut; and whatever he shuts, no one opens.
I know your works. Look! I have set in front of you an open door that no one can shut. You have so little power, and yet you have kept my word and haven't denied my name.
Because of this I will make the people from Satan's synagogue (who say they are Jews and really aren't, but are lying)—I will make them come and bow down at your feet and realize that I have loved you.
Because you kept my command to endure, I will keep you safe through the time of testing that is about to come over the whole world, to test those who live on earth.
I'm coming soon.

Oscarr said:

There is a difference between being a slave to sin where the person cannot chose otherwise, and actually sees no wrong in sinful acts and actually enjoys them; and the true believer who is conscious of temptation and the weakness of his flesh, and treats these as unwelcome, like bed bugs in his bed which bite and cause unpleasant irritation.

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What you say makes perfect sense, it is logically correct, except for one small thing.

All of this logic cannot be backed up with Scripture which clearly says it the way John does, it's all Assumption, Supposition, Allusion, but nothing of substance.

1 Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

JIMINZ said:

Question, do you personally have the Holy Spirit indwelling you?

If so, this is what John said to those Believers who do.

1 Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
But why, how can this be?
for his seed remaineth in him:
In other words, Gods' seed is the Holy Spirit.
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It's not anything a Believer does to not sin, it is solely because the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer, just as He did Jesus Christ who was also without sin.

Not only are we indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but we are IN Christ as well.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So the end of the matter is.
Jesus is in God
We are in Christ
Jesus is in us
The Holy Spirit is in us

But we still sin, how exactly does that work?

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In support of your excellent post:

Our English language is not sufficient to give a clear difference between the slavery to sin and the struggles of the flesh and temptation connect with it in a believer.

There are many shades of meaning in the word "sin", and the meaning of "sin" for an unbeliever is quite different to that for a believer.

For an unbeliever, "sin" is defined as total rebellion against God and allegiance to the devil and so his acts will always reflect that alienation from God and his rebellion against Him. This is the sin that Jesus took the penalty and the wrath of God for when He shed His blood on the cross.

The believer has been set free from the power and penalty of that "sin" because Jesus paid the full price for it. But there is a "sin" that sticks to a believer like mud to a shovel. This is not the same "sin" that Jesus paid for on the cross. It is more in the nature of "trespasses" which a believer falls into when succumbing to temptation. This is the "sin" that John speaks about when he says that those who say they have no sin are deceived and the truth is not in them.

But when he says that the person who is born of God cannot sin, he is talking about the "sin" which is defined as rebellion and fundamental rejection of God and the gospel. A true believer cannot "sin" in this way because he has a new heart and spirit and therefore it is no longer in him to rebel against God and be in habitual disobedience to Him.

JIMINZ said:

What you say makes perfect sense, it is logically correct, except for one small thing.

All of this logic cannot be backed up with Scripture which clearly says it the way John does, it's all Assumption, Supposition, Allusion, but nothing of substance.

1 Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Click to expand...

Yes, but what is the definition of the type of sin that John says someone born of God does not commit? Aren't there differences between the sin that consists of total rebellion and disobedience against God and the gospel, and the type of sin that happens when a true believer trips and falls because of temptation?

Oscarr said:

There are many shades of meaning in the word "sin", and the meaning of "sin" for an unbeliever is quite different to that for a believer.

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Both John and Paul have defined Sin for us, there are no shades of sin, there are only differences it the types of sin, there are no degrees of sin, all sin carries the death penalty

1 Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I really do not believe, there are Un-believers sitting around on some forum, discussing the different meanings of sin, the way Believers do.

With what Paul says above it should be understood.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal. 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Therefore if we as Born Again Believers are in fact Dead to the law, how then does a Believer Transgress the Law when to us who Believe there is no Law?

Because.

Rom. 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Oscarr said:

Yes, but what is the definition of the type of sin that John says someone born of God does not commit? Aren't there differences between the sin that consists of total rebellion and disobedience against God and the gospel, and the type of sin that happens when a true believer trips and falls because of temptation?

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Are you speaking of what John calls Transgressions?