How far into Revelation are we now?

Revelation is so so so so misunderstood. Thousands of end times experts believe only they know the truth.

miamited said:

Hi swan,

You responded:


I'm not sure that's the correct understanding of the first seal. There is no part of the description of the rider on the white horse as being the Antichrist unless one 'assumes' that. The rider is described as being released to conquer and is described similarly to other descriptions found within the Scriptures that are absolutely about Jesus.

That he rides out on a white horse. In Revelation 19 we read: I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. In this passage it is obviously Jesus who is sitting upon that white horse. Could it be the same white horse?

Then we read that he is given a crown and that he held a bow and was bent on conquest. Jesus also came bent on conquest. He came to us with a message from his Father that was intended to conquer the hearts of wicked mankind. He also wears a crown. In Revelation 14 we read: I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Here, the one wearing the crown is described just as Jesus was often described in other visions, 'one looking like the son of man'.

So, it is possible, if one throws out any preconceptions of the passage, that this is referring to Jesus when he visited us and gave his life for our salvation and then released the gospel unto his servants, the apostles, to go out and conquer the hearts of men. For that is exactly what the gospel does when it is heard by a seeking heart. It conquers sin and death in that person's life and makes them subservient to our God.

That this passage refers to the Antichrist, cannot actually be proven by any words within the passage itself, if one understands that the gospel was also sent out to conquer. To give victory over sin and death among those who are already dead in their sin and trespasses. To give victory through Jesus and his testimony.

Just a point to be considered.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

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I know what you're saying and I used to think that too, but you're only assuming that I am not being led by the Holy Spirit in this - which is what I stated in my post. If you think that I am not being led by the Holy Spirit, you need to test the spirit. Like you said as well, "I think this is not correct..." You don't know for sure.

I have asked God this very thing because I do not want to be led astray along with the many that will be according to the Bible. Yet, there will be many that will be killed for His name. My point is not to take a small line someone says and say "I think" rather than allowing God to tell you what the truth is. God will not hide the truth from someone seeking Him, but reveal in given season.

I both agree and disagree with points in your reply.

Trust God even over oneself.

Revealing Times said:

The Anti-Christ HAS TO Conquer Israel to BECOME the Beast before the Mark of the Beast can be handed out, he is only the BEAST for 42 Months. It's pretty basic stuff, but people get way out over their skis on these things. People just need to SLOW DOWN and think rationally.

Every BEAST was over The whole or most of the Mediterranean Sea Region and ALWAYS Israel, without Israel there can be nothing to BEAST OVER in juxtaposition to God's plans !!

When Jerusalem is Conquered {see Daniel 12:5-7} we then have 1260 days left until the end of all these wonders {Second Coming}, thus the Beast rules for 42 Months.

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I agree.

Where we may disagree is that I believe in both a Pre-Trib Rapture, and Mid Trib Gathering up by Angels. I used to recently believe that the day of wrath as beginning at the 6th seal (because the inhabitants of the Earth have said that the great day of His wrath has come), but I noticed that God does not really pour out any major judgment until the 1st trumpet judgment. In fact, one angel had to tell four other angels not to harm the Earth yet at the breaking of the 6th seal so that the 144,000 (Messianic Jews) could be sealed and protected during this time. So I see the start of God's Wrath officially beginning with the 1st trumpet Judgment. I say this because believers who were not martyred by the Antichrist with his enforcement of the mark (4th seal, i.e. death) are told to look up for their redemption draws near. This fits with the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 that says that Christ is coming. Yet, this coming would be for the rest of His faithful elect ones and not for the wicked because there are still many other trumpet and bowl judgments that need to happen after the midpoint of the Tribulation. For the Olivet Discourse sounds more like a Mid Tribulation event.

Swan7 said:

I know what you're saying and I used to think that too, but you're only assuming that I am not being led by the Holy Spirit in this - which is what I stated in my post. If you think that I am not being led by the Holy Spirit, you need to test the spirit. Like you said as well, "I think this is not correct..." You don't know for sure.

I have asked God this very thing because I do not want to be led astray along with the many that will be according to the Bible. Yet, there will be many that will be killed for His name. My point is not to take a small line someone says and say "I think" rather than allowing God to tell you what the truth is. God will not hide the truth from someone seeking Him, but reveal in given season.

I both agree and disagree with points in your reply.

Trust God even over oneself.

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Hi swan,

I absolutely agree that your advice is good. Thanks.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Douggg said:

Hebrews6

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That is what THAT VERSE MEANS, but 2 Thessalonians meas the departure of the Church, you do understand the difference between the two sentences in English right ?

1.) Departure of THE CHURCH.........
2.) Departure of the Faith...............

So it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The 2 Thessalonians 2 reference is clearly about the Gathering unto the Lord, and thus a definite article is used in this Greek passage, pointing towards a something that is Departing, and I can find FAITH nowhere in the passage, can you ? But I do see the Gathering unto Christ Jesus !! In the very first verse. Its quite obvious, but Satan is busy doing what he does of course, deceiving and confusing via division. Of course if one knows when the Rapture is, he should be able to see around this roadblock.

Douggg said:

You are making a case for a mandatory pre-70th week rapture to happen before the Day of the Lord takes place.

But the Day of the Lord does not take place until sometime in the middle of the 70th week when the person goes into the temple sits and claims to be God.

So why is it mandatory that the rapture take place before the confirming of the covenant for 7 years?

The rapture may happen today, but is not mandatory to take place except to be before the Day of the Lord begins.

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You are missing the WHOLE POINT of the letter to the Thessalonians {the 2 Thess. 2 portion}. They must have wrote their own letter, we can surmise that, to Paul speaking about the Day of the Lord God's Wrath being UPON THEM !! Thus Paul writes, and says HEY BROTHERS, as per the Second Coming of Jesus, where we will b gathered unto him, please do not FEAR or have any ANGST, no matter what kind of messages you have been told {as if it was by us..Meaning it was not of them but was a false doctrinal letter from a FAKER}alleging/stating that the DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME [UPON THE WORLD].

Don't let anyone trick you or fool you brothers !! THAT DAY {DOTL] can not come unless the Departure {WHAT DEPARTURE ? Look at verse 1, the Gathering unto Christ !! Good grief.} COMES FIRST. {Nowhere is Faith Mentioned in the passage, but a Gathering unto Christ is, CONTEXT}. So the Departure of the CHURCH comes first, which should squash their fears of being in God's Wrath, because they of course are the Church !! And then the Man of Sin must also come before the DOTL comes upon the world. {Church Departs........then the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, which is when he DOTL starts, at the 1260 mark.}

2 Thessalonians 2 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

The Man of Lawlessness
2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy{DEPARTURE of what ? Look in VERSE 1, the Church is Gathered unto Christ} comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed.

Paul does't have to be overtly specific, he's already explained this unto them in private when he was with them. The he says YOU KNOW what restrains the Man of sin from coming forth !! Well what was it that is RESTRAINING the Anti-Christ ? The Church can not be overcome by the Gates of hell !! Once the Church DEPARTS.........The Man of Sin will come forth !! The passage has ZILCH to do with the Faith.

Douggg said:

For you to make a case of a mandatory pre-70th week rapture - you have to find something in the bible, that the rapture takes place before the confirming of the covenant for 7 years.

There are only two places I know of in the bible that refers to the confirming of the covenant for 7 years; 7 years actually being in the text.

(1) Daniel 9:27 (2) Deuteronomy 31:9-13

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It is what it is, if you don't know when the Rapture is that is on you brother.

Jason0047 said:

I agree.

Where we may disagree is that I believe in both a Pre-Trib Rapture, and Mid Trib Gathering up by Angels. I used to recently believe that the day of wrath as beginning at the 6th seal (because the inhabitants of the Earth have said that the great day of His wrath has come), but I noticed that God does not really pour out any major judgment until the 1st trumpet judgment. In fact, one angel had to tell four other angels not to harm the Earth yet at the breaking of the 6th seal so that the 144,000 (Messianic Jews) could be sealed and protected during this time. So I see the start of God's Wrath officially beginning with the 1st trumpet Judgment.

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You are on the right track, but think about it, where does the Trumpet Judgments come from ? The 7th Seal !! Where does the Seven Vials come from ? The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe or all 7 Vials. So everything comes out of the 7 Seals opened by Jesus.

I understand why people think as they do on the 6th Seal, but the passage only says they understand God's Wrath is now upon them, because God shows them that supernaturally at this point in time.

My understanding of the Seals have evolved over the last couple of weeks. All of the Seals, save the 7th Seal where the Trumpets come from, are opened almost SIMULTANEOUSLY !! Because each Seal doesn't have to come to pass before the next one is opened, because, GET THIS, everything he does happen over a 42 Month span of time {and it is God's Judgment, the Beast and his 10 Kings, JUDGE the Harlot for God, Rev. 17:17 says so}. Knowing this lets RELOOK at the Seals.

1.) First Seal, God/Jesus releases the Beast to go forth Conquering {White Horse = Conqueror} and he does this for how long ? 42 Months of TYRANNY !! The next Seal is IMMEDIATELY OPENED.

2.} The 2nd Seal, Peace {the FAKE PEACE} is take from the earth, WARS thus ensue, and no doubt the Wars will last 42 Months. Those pro the Anti-Christ vs. those opposed to the Anti-Christ.

3.) The 3rd Seal is Famine, wars cause famine, and since there is 42 months of wars.......

4.) The Fourth Seal is of course all the Sickness and Death/Grave caused by the Beasts Actions over his 42 Month reign.

5.) 5th Seal is the Testimony of the Martyrs over a 42 month period, they are SPECIFICALLY told they must wait until their fellow brothers are killed in like manner as they were, meaning they must wait until the 42 month reign of terror of this tyrant is over.

6.) The 6th Seal is when God announces His Wrath supernaturally, but it started with the First Seal.

BUT.............They were all opened at the same time basically !! I just got his last week or the week before. The First Four Seals are just a PRONOUNCEMENT of what the Beasts 42 reign of terror will bring upon mankind, none of the Seals are FULFILLED before the others are opened, they all cover a 42 Months period of time. So in staccato like speed, they are opened Boom, boom, boom, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM..........Then the 7th Seal has a hold put on it by God until the 144,000 {Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL} are sealed or PROTECTED by God once they make it to the Petra/Bozrah safe zone.

Then God's Supernatural Wrath starts falling, but releasing the Anti-Christ onto the wicked world s still judgment, its the Lamb's Wrath. So now the Anti-Christ's ACTIONS are ongoing, as God's Wrath is raining down via the Trumpets and Vials. So now IT FITS, the 6th Seal is basically opened in day 1260 just like the other 5 Seals, and thus Satan is cast down ad chases the Woman {Israel} into the Wilderness for 1260 days !!

So the first 6 Seals I see as being opened all at the SAME TIME basically !! Boom, boom boom. We know the Tribulation Saints are raised up at the end, we see in Rev. 20:4 those that REFUSED the Mark of the Best are Judged and LIVE and REIGN with Christ 1000 years on earth. The Rev. 7 Saints see in Heave came out of the 2000 some odd year CHURCH AGE TRIBULATION, Jesus told us we would have continual tribulation. People confuse this with the Tribulation Saints who are Martyred.

Jason0047 said:

I say this because believers who were not martyred by the Antichrist with his enforcement of the mark (4th seal, i.e. death) are told to look up for their redemption draws near. This fits with the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13 that says that Christ is coming. Yet, this coming would be for the rest of His faithful elect ones and not for the wicked because there are still many other trumpet and bowl judgments that need to happen after the midpoint of the Tribulation. For the Olivet Discourse sounds more like a Mid Tribulation event.

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LET'S THINK HERE.....I see these Martys as happening over a 42 month period of time via this TYRANT. I don't see in the Fourth Seal where anyone is told to look up, yu redemption draws nigh, maybe I missed it. As per the Olivet Discourse, we can discuss it in depth later, but those who say it fits Revelation are just off kilter here, only from Matt. 24:15 on fits, any verse before that is a part of the Church Age BEFORE the Rapture....We can discuss it.

The Old Testament Saints {Bride of God} are raised up at the Second Coming when Jesus returns with the Church in tow.

Think about the Seals Boom, boom, boom, boom, BOOM, BOOM............Boom.

Revealing Times said:

It is what it is, if you don't know when the Rapture is that is on you brother.

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How can it be on me when you are the one claiming the rapture must take place before the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years?

It is on you to show from the text of the bible something tying the rapture to take place before the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years.

Otherwise, you might as well become "anytime" rapture view like me. The rapture could take place before the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years. But it not mandatory that it has to.

Anytime before the Day of the Lord begins. Which I show the Day of the Lord beginning on my chart about the path of the arch villain of the end times. Just follow the path down.

Where I show "king of the Roman Empire end times" just equate that with being the leader of the EU final form.

Revealing Times said:

And then the Man of Sin must also come before the DOTL comes upon the world. {Church Departs........then the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, which is when he DOTL starts, at the 1260 mark.}

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What reveals him as the man of sin in the text is that he goes into the temple, sits, and claims to be God.

It doesn't say what reveals him as the man of sin is that he confirms the covenant for 7 years.

What the bible say is the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years. It is later, in the middle of that 7 years, that he reveals himself as the man of sin.

Revealing himself as the man of sin is what triggers the Day of the Lord.

Revealing Times said:

You are on the right track, but think about it, where does the Trumpet Judgments come from ? The 7th Seal............So in staccato like speed, they are opened Boom, boom, boom, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM........
So the first 6 Seals I see as being opened all at the SAME TIME basically !! Boom, boom boom.
Think about the Seals Boom, boom, boom, boom, BOOM, BOOM............Boom.

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Yes, Jesus repeats "in swiftness" twice in Revelation.
We can use this example of what befell 1st century Jerusalem and Jews and apply it to them in the future. [Providing they ever build another Temple]............

"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Revelation 1:1
An unveiling/revelation of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the Messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
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Matthew 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those, the days!
Mark 13:17 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Luke 21
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.
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1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

Ezekiel 13:10
Because they have led My people astray, saying, "Peace," when there is no peace, and whitewashing any flimsy wall that is built,

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!...........
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance; and according to Josephus this event took place suddenly; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
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Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '
[Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations. [Jeremiah 15:2 Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints

Chapter 20, the "thousand" years. Symbolic number representing a long time.
Very symbolic book. No need to assume a halt to such in ch. 20.
Same kind of symbolic language found in Old Testament for past fulfilled prophecies.
Revelation begins by saying they are things that must take place "soon". In other words, the main thrust of the book regards things in the near future for those in the 7 churches it is addressed to.
The theme has much to do with Jesus' coming judgment on unbelieving Israel primarily (and Rome), which He warned much about earlier in the gospels, along with what believers have to look forward to in heaven, giving hope for those who were enduring persecution, and all who thereafter do as well.

mister rogers said:

Chapter 20, the "thousand" years. Symbolic number representing a long time.
Very symbolic book. No need to assume a halt to such in ch. 20.
Same kind of symbolic language found in Old Testament for past fulfilled prophecies.
Revelation begins by saying they are things that must take place "soon". In other words, the main thrust of the book regards things in the near future for those in the 7 churches it is addressed to.
The theme has much to do with Jesus' coming judgment on unbelieving Israel primarily (and Rome), which He warned much about earlier in the gospels, along with what believers have to look forward to in heaven, giving hope for those who were enduring persecution, and all who thereafter do as well.

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if time statements mean what they say, then "soon" meant "soon" to the original 1st century AD readers...

and "thousand years" meant more or less "1000.000 years" beginning at some time in the future of the 1st century AD readers, upon the spiritual defeat of the Beast = pagan Roman empire (= Constantine, 4th century AD)

Erik Nelson said:

if time statements mean what they say, then "soon" meant "soon" to the original 1st century AD readers...

and "thousand years" meant more or less "1000.000 years" beginning at some time in the future of the 1st century AD readers, upon the spiritual defeat of the Beast = pagan Roman empire (= Constantine, 4th century AD)

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Well, "soon" I think is a little different than saying an exact number.
But anyway, are you suggesting the 1000 years did begin and end during the medieval period? That's interesting.

ewq1938 said:

Rome was not spiritually defeated in the first century. According to John a King/Kingdom was yet to com,e and that one would be the one found in Rev 13:1 so that beast wasn't Rome plus John said it would only last a short time which further removes Rome from any possibility.

Rome persecuted the Jews in the first century. In Rev, the beast persecutes Christians not Jews.

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Good points to think on.
As for Roman persecution, they persecuted both Jews and Christians. But in Revelation I think the focus is on the Church's experience in light of being persecuted by Rome and the harlot that rides it, apostate Israel, which the beast turned against and burned. Rome's eventual fall I think is in view too. In God's sovereign plan it fell apart and Christianity grew.

ewq1938 said:

Eventually but Christians were too small in the earlier years but the Romans had rebellions from the Jews to deal with.



There is nothing about Rome or Roman's in Rev at all. Christians are persecuted in the book but by a kingdom and leadership that has yet to rise to power.



The beasts in Rev are destroyed by Christ at the second coming so Rome is not what is being described.

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I may not ascribe to everything this writer views on eschatology, but what he says about this topic is useful. Also, consider the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 being ancient Rome. I think it all fits very well. The Beast of Revelation   |  Partial Preterism  |  The Preterist Archive

ewq1938 said:

Again, the last beast-kingdom is destroyed at the second coming. The second coming did not happen yet and so it certainly did not cause Rome to fall.
It says "in the days of those kingdoms". None of them exist anymore. The risen Christ now reigns from heaven and has been building his Church since.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

"and one is" is a reference to Rome at the time John wrote this. The last kingdom is said not to have come yet so it's obviously impossible for the last kingdom to be Rome. Plus, when the last one comes, it doesn't even last long.

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The article gives an explanation for this. Beasts can refer to kingdoms or their rulers.

What you keep saying requires a humongous time gap that no one would understand from flow of the text. I would ask yourself where you're getting that idea from.