Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

jgr said:

Right. So "for ever" does not mean "eternally" in the Scriptures I cited.

Why is Exodus 32:13 any different?

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For ever in each case cited by both you and I certainly does not mean "temporary." In the case the passages you cited, "forever" meant for life as it pertained to individual persons, but forever in the context of Exodus 32:13 does in that sense mean "eternal" as it pertains to an entire people who have abided and still continue to abide from generation to generation.

If forever is the opposite of temporary, then "forever" has no end.

Contenders Edge said:

For ever in each case cited by both you and I certainly does not mean "temporary." In the case the passages you cited, "forever" meant for life as it pertained to individual persons, but forever in the context of Exodus 32:13 does in that sense mean "eternal" as it pertains to an entire people who have abided and still continue to abide from generation to generation.

If forever is the opposite of temporary, then "forever" has no end.

Click to expand...

1 Kings 12:7
And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.

A reference to a people abiding for generations.

Servants for an extended time.

But not eternally.

jgr said:

1 Kings 12:7
And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.

A reference to a people abiding for generations.

Servants for an extended time.

But not eternally.

Click to expand...

Servants for life to the individual involved in that case. They could not be servants for eternity to the king around which the cited passage centers because the king would not live forever. "For ever" in that case meant for as long as that both that present generation and that king lived, but not a temporary season in their lifetime.

But in the context of Exodus 32:13 as it pertains to inheritance of the promised land, "Forever" goes beyond a generation of people and is applied to eternity as far as the inheritance is concerned. They are destined to remain in the land given to them forever.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
There is more of what Paul said regarding the witness of God than in just the one passage you cite. As for your definition of Oikumene, Strong’s definition does not entirely match yours His definition does not necessarily regard the lands outside the Roman empire as being of no account.

Click to expand...

claninja said: ↑
From strongs:
properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

Click to expand...

Contenders Edge said:

I do not know what Strong's you are getting this exact definition from. It is not found in mine.

Click to expand...

LLoJ the Greekmeister has arrived.........

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
3625. oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world.

STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω (namely, γῆ; cf. Winers Grammar, § 64, 5; Buttmann, § 123, 8));
1. the inhabited earth;
a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.

Some threads on it:

OIKOUMENE (#3625) - (w00t!)

random person said:

The Greek word "oikoumene" is translated "the inhabited Roman world".

The Greek word is a preterists sheer delight as I will demonstrate now.

Here are NT verses in which this Greek word occurs:

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (oikoumene #3625), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14,16

If the writer of Revelation literally meant the whole earth, he would have written kosmos (#2889) instead of oikoumene!

Click to expand...

"OIKOUMENE"(#G3625) In Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Mistranslated?
One interesting fact I found out is, that #3625 is used in only 4 verses of the Gospels:
1 in Matthew and 3 in Luke.

I will post 2 of the verses, both of which are used in the Olivet Disourse using the KJV and NASB, as they appear to be 2 popular Bible versions and also use different greek texts.

Used in only 1 verse of Matthew:

Matthew 24:14

New American Standard Bible
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world<(oikoumenē)<3625> as a testimony to all the nations,
and then the end will come.
King James Bible
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world<(oikoumenē)<3625> for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:26

New American Standard Bible
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world/<(oikoumenē)<3625>;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
King James Bible
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>:
for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.[/quote]

LittleLambofJesus said:

LLoJ the Greekmeister has arrived.........

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
3625. oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world.

STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω (namely, γῆ; cf. Winers Grammar, § 64, 5; Buttmann, § 123, 8));
1. the inhabited earth;
a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.

Some threads on it:

OIKOUMENE (#3625) - (w00t!)

"OIKOUMENE"(#G3625) In Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Mistranslated?
One interesting fact I found out is, that #3625 is used in only 4 verses of the Gospels:
1 in Matthew and 3 in Luke.

I will post 2 of the verses, both of which are used in the Olivet Disourse using the KJV and NASB, as they appear to be 2 popular Bible versions and also use different greek texts.

Used in only 1 verse of Matthew:

Matthew 24:14

New American Standard Bible
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world<(oikoumenē)<3625> as a testimony to all the nations,
and then the end will come.
King James Bible
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world<(oikoumenē)<3625> for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:26

New American Standard Bible
men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world/<(oikoumenē)<3625>;
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
King James Bible
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>:
for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

This is the actual definition of Oikoumene:

LittleLambofJesus said:

STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω
1. the inhabited earth;
a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.

Click to expand...

Contenders Edge said:

This is the actual definition of Oikoumene:

"3625. oikoumene feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by implication, of 1093);
land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:--earth, world."
But it does not go so far as to say that the inhabited lands beyond the Roman Empire were of no account as Claninja has claimed and neither do the additional applications that you cite. And just because some translators may apply the word to strictly the Roman Empire, that does not mean the Apostles applied oikumene just to the Roman empire. They knew of lands beyond the Roman world.​

Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, the Greek and Roman Empires are pretty much the most prominent empires mentioned in the NT

Luk 23:38
And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:[fn]
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:20
Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Act 20:2
Now when he had gone over that region and encouraged them with many words, he came to Greece

Act 6:1
Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Act 9:29
preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

Revelation 9:11
and they are having of them a king the Messenger of the Abyss, name to him to Hebrew abaddwn<3>, and in the Greecian name is having apolluwn/destroyer/ruiner<623>
===============================
Greece is mentioned in Daniel......

Dan 8:21
“And the male goat is the kingdom[fn] of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
Dan 10:20
Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come.
Dan 11:2
“And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.
Zec 9:13
For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”



ROMAN EMPIRE 1ST CENTURY

LittleLambofJesus said:

If I am not mistaken, the Greek and Roman Empires are pretty much the most prominent empires mentioned in the NT

Luk 23:38
And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:[fn]
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Jhn 19:20
Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Act 20:2
Now when he had gone over that region and encouraged them with many words, he came to Greece

Act 6:1
Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Act 9:29
preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation

Revelation 9:11
and they are having of them a king the Messenger of the Abyss, name to him to Hebrew abaddwn<3>, and in the Greecian name is having apolluwn/destroyer/ruiner<623>
===============================
Greece is mentioned in Daniel......

Dan 8:21
“And the male goat is the kingdom[fn] of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king.
Dan 10:20
Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come.
Dan 11:2
“And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.
Zec 9:13
For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”

ROMAN EMPIRE 1ST CENTURY

Click to expand...

The Roman Empire was the most prominent empire at that time. It is the only empire mentioned in the New Testament though there are other lands and nations mentioned in the New Testament that were not under Roman jurisdiction and to which the Gospel had also been taken.

The Greek empire had already come and gone with Greece under Roman rule. Interestingly, Rome has its foundations upon Greek culture and society due to the many similarities between the two (i.e. religion, mythology, and government structure, come to mind)

Contenders Edge said:

Servants for life to the individual involved in that case. They could not be servants for eternity to the king around which the cited passage centers because the king would not live forever. "For ever" in that case meant for as long as that both that present generation and that king lived, but not a temporary season in their lifetime.

But in the context of Exodus 32:13 as it pertains to inheritance of the promised land, "Forever" goes beyond a generation of people and is applied to eternity as far as the inheritance is concerned. They are destined to remain in the land given to them forever.

Click to expand...

Leviticus 25
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Multiple generations of people.

But not slaves eternally.

Contenders Edge said:

Servants for life to the individual involved in that case. They could not be servants for eternity to the king around which the cited passage centers because the king would not live forever. "For ever" in that case meant for as long as that both that present generation and that king lived, but not a temporary season in their lifetime.

But in the context of Exodus 32:13 as it pertains to inheritance of the promised land, "Forever" goes beyond a generation of people and is applied to eternity as far as the inheritance is concerned. They are destined to remain in the land given to them forever.

Click to expand...

In the following, Solomon and God repeatedly declare that God will inhabit the house built for Him by Solomon "for ever":

1 Kings 8:13
I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

1 Kings 9:3
And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

2 Chronicles 6:2
But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.

2 Chronicles 7:16
For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.


The house which God inhabits is immeasurably greater than any land which Israel might inhabit.

But Solomon's (and God's) "for ever" house long ago vanished.

God Himself subsequently declares and inquires:

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the Lord says:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?

Jesus, Stephen, and Peter subsequently confirm that Solomon's house was never a "for ever" house, being transcended by something immeasurably greater which is "for ever":

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 7
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Solomon's "for ever" house was never "for ever", as God and His servants confirm, being transcended by the immeasurably greater "for ever" House of the Church of God.

Israel's land, immeasurably lesser than the House of the Church of God, is not "for ever", being transcended by the infinitely better Country above. (Hebrews 11:16)

jgr said:

Leviticus 25
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Multiple generations of people.

But not slaves eternally.

Click to expand...

As in other cases, "forever" meant to be for life. Those of foreign descent could be servants for life. It would not be a temporary season in that regards.

jgr said:

In the following, Solomon and God repeatedly declare that God will inhabit the house built for Him by Solomon "for ever":

1 Kings 8:13
I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

1 Kings 9:3
And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

2 Chronicles 6:2
But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.

2 Chronicles 7:16
For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.


The house which God inhabits is immeasurably greater than any land which Israel might inhabit.

But Solomon's (and God's) "for ever" house long ago vanished.

God Himself subsequently declares and inquires:

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the Lord says:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?

Jesus, Stephen, and Peter subsequently confirm that Solomon's house was never a "for ever" house, being transcended by something immeasurably greater which is "for ever":

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 7
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Solomon's "for ever" house was never "for ever", as God and His servants confirm, being transcended by the immeasurably greater "for ever" House of the Church of God.

Israel's land, immeasurably lesser than the House of the Church of God, is not "for ever", being transcended by the infinitely better Country above. (Hebrews 11:16)

Click to expand...

You left out the following:

1 Kings 9:6-7: "But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight..."

2 Chr. 7:19-20: "But if ye turn away, and for sake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; Then will I pluck them up by the roots which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight..."

He would remain forever among the people in the Temple that Solomon had built and dedicated to Him if they continued to serve and obey Him. The people of Israel lived more closely in His direct presence than any other nation. But they did not remain faithful and obedient to the Lord their God and just as He said, He cast the Solomon's temple out of His sight just as He said that He would.

So, was God lying? If our doctrine is simply based upon the cited passages alone, it would indeed make Him out to be a liar, but as the following passages declare, despite the judgment they have faced, it would not be the end of them:

Jeremiah 30:11: "...though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered the, yet will I not make a full end of thee..."

No other nation or people was ever guaranteed a perpetual existence as the people of Israel and to this day, they as a distinct people, nation, and culture, still abide.

In fact, He has declared His promise of that to be so sure that He said in Jeremiah 31:35-37:

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever."

God has not lost control over nature and Israel did not cease from being a nation permanently. They were re-established as a nation back in their own land as a sovereign nation and have remained so to this day.

Ezekiel 37:25: "And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they , and their children, and their children's children forever..."

Amos 9:15: "And I will plant them upon their own land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord God."

And of Jerusalem the Lord, though He commanded punishment, He did say, "make not a full end." (Jer. 5:10)

And though Jerusalem has been subject to punishment throughout her history, she continues to abide still which is necessary because Jesus is destined to set His throne therein when He returns to reign upon the earth.

And in that day, there will be a sanctuary in which the Lord will dwell among the people of Israel as written in Ezekiel 37:26-27: "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

For further insight into what this sanctuary and dwelling place will be, read Ezekiel 40-48.
We find that it was always in the mind of God to have a permanent dwelling place within His chosen nation and that day will be fulfilled when Christ returns to reign upon the earth.

Contenders Edge said:

No other nation or people was ever guaranteed a perpetual existence as the people of Israel and to this day, they as a distinct people, nation, and culture, still abide.

Click to expand...

But what you fail to understand is; the Jewish State of Israel is not the Israel of God.
How can they be; they reject Jesus!
It is we Christians whom the Lord has chosen, John 15:14-16, the Jews lost their status nearly 2000 years ago. Matthew 21:43

Faithful Christians are a distinct people, but at present remain scattered among the nations. This is soon to change and it will be the Lord's true Israelites, the Overcomers for Him, that will go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107 In the new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5,

keras said:

But what you fail to understand is; the Jewish State of Israel is not the Israel of God.
How can they be; they reject Jesus!
It is we Christians whom the Lord has chosen, John 15:14-16, the Jews lost their status nearly 2000 years ago. Matthew 21:43

Faithful Christians are a distinct people, but at present remain scattered among the nations. This is soon to change and it will be the Lord's true Israelites, the Overcomers for Him, that will go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107 In the new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5,

Romans 9:24-26​

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You forget that Paul said that the Jews could still be restored with all things restored to them (Rom. 11:23) if they did not continue in unbelief and foretold that all of Israel would eventually be saved. (Rom. 11:26)

Christians are a distinct people only in the spiritual and doctrinal sense, but the Israelites still remain a people distinct from all others by ethnicity, culture, religion, traditions, and customs. Eventually, the nation of Israel will enter into the New Covenant that God has established when all wickedness and unbelief is purged from them.

Contenders Edge said:

You forget that Paul said that the Jews could still be restored with all things restored to them (Rom. 11:23) if they did not continue in unbelief and foretold that all of Israel would eventually be saved. (Rom. 11:26)

Christians are a distinct people only in the spiritual and doctrinal sense, but the Israelites still remain a people distinct from all others by ethnicity, culture, religion, traditions, and customs. Eventually, the nation of Israel will enter into the New Covenant that God has established when all wickedness and unbelief is purged from them.

Click to expand...

Not all Israelites are Jews/Judeans..........that is basic Christianity 101 and has been brought up to you many times on this thread...ad-nauseu.
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Please view the covenantle pararble/story thread on Luke 16.......thanks

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

Contenders Edge said:

u forget that Paul said that the Jews could still be restored with all things restored to them (Rom. 11:23) if they did not continue in unbelief and foretold that all of Israel would eventually be saved. (Rom. 11:26)

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But will they be saved?
Many prophesies plainly tell us they won't and only a small remnant will survive.
The 'All Israel' that Paul refers to is just that; people from each of the 12 tribes, of which Judah, the Jews represent 2.

Contenders Edge said:

but the Israelites still remain a people distinct from all others by ethnicity, culture, religion, traditions, and customs.

Click to expand...

Israelis are a nation, a people; but NOT by descent from Judah, as the historical record proves. They are just like every other nation; made up of peoples from many ancestries. They call themselves Jews, but they are not. Revelation 3:9

Contenders Edge said:

Eventually, the nation of Israel will enter into the New Covenant that God has established when all wickedness and unbelief is purged from them.

Click to expand...

This idea is false and is promoted to support the Satanic lie of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory.
It is every faithful Christian who receives the New Covenant, never a unrepentant and Jesus rejection people.

Contenders Edge said:

Paul did not think that chapter 12 of Zechariah had been fulfilled in its entirety. Israel, as a nation and people had not been saved in his day, which is why he spoke of the salvation of the nation as yet to come (Rom. 11:26) and it is due to two thirds being cut off that he states only a remnant of the nation is saved (Rom. 9:27)

While there is no doubt a general chronology to prophecy, and all of scripture for that matter, sometimes, before pressing forward, the scriptures may jump backward to explain certain events in greater detail or things to take place before that which it was initially speaking of.

Zechariah 12 and part of 13 is about the salvation of the Jews, but verse 7 of 13 explains that before they receive their Deliverer, they reject Him at first and put Him to death. Going back to Zechariah 12, verses 10 through 14 speak of the terrible remorse they will feel for having rejected Him to the point of killing Him the first time.

But before Israel finally calls upon the name of Jesus, they are destined to undergo a purge during which two-thirds of them will die, leaving only a third part that is saved as the ending verses of chapter 13 of Zechariah explain, hence the reason why Paul says only a remnant of the nation will be saved. Zechariah chapter 14 shifts back to their deliverance and the reign of Christ over them.

These three chapters are not the only case in which the scriptures have been known to do this.

Click to expand...

Paul quotes OT Scripture numerous times in his epistles.

But he never quotes Zechariah 13.

The remnant to which he refers cannot be dispensationalism's futurized purge remnant, for he identifies the remnant as already existing when he wrote:

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "election of grace" identifies faithful obedient believers in Christ.

It is they who already were the remnant in Paul's day.

And have always been.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Not all Israelites are Jews/Judeans..........that is basic Christianity 10 and has been brought up to you many times on this thread...ad-nauseu.
Page 54
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Please view the covenantle pararble/story thread on Luke 16.......thanks

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

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And I have explained more than once to all of you that the distinction that once existed between Judah and the rest of the Israelites ceased to be after the end of the Babylonian captivity and therefore from that day on, all Israelites have been called Jews and presently, they exist as one unified nation. For as it was foretold in the 37th chapter of Ezekiel, "I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel...and they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." (Ezek. 37:22)

As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it bears no relevance to this thread but yet would be more than happy to express my thoughts on it on the thread for which it is designated.

jgr said:

Paul quotes OT Scripture numerous times in his epistles.

But he never quotes Zechariah 13.

The remnant to which he refers cannot be dispensationalism's futurized purge remnant, for he identifies the remnant as already existing when he wrote:

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The "election of grace" identifies faithful obedient believers in Christ.

It is they who already were the remnant in Paul's day.

And have always been.

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The remnant according to the election of grace is in reference to Jews coming to Christ then and now. The remnant spoken in the future tense is who will be left of the nation of Israel when the nation embraces the New Covenant and without a doubt has its foundation in Zechariah 13:9 and other similar Old Testament Passages.