Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Major1 · Aug 30, 2019

huiothesia said:
You make many assumptions regarding what you think some scriptures mean. Most of us have done this. It doesn't mean we are correct.
My point in mentioning Israel is that in one place it says one thing and in another the opposite.
And there are many other examples of this throughout both the old and new. These seeming contradictions set up a tension and very difficult to resolve entirely and in all cases, except by framing them within a set of doctrinal positions that an individual subscribes to and then interpreting them in that light. This is the history of the church in a nutshell--aside from what is invisible and wonderful based on Paul's illuminating in Ephesians, Colossians, Corinthians, Thessalonians and so on.
There are things there that we know are true as the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and even so--some of those lofty things regarding the Church and the Saints--we see dimly.
We know that the Lord chose us 'In Him' before the foundation of the world, we know He made us alive 'In Him', we know He loves us and will never leave or forsake us. We have the awesome opportunity to share the reason for the hope that He put within us. We know He is faithful, gracious and merciful and that He went to prepare a place for us. We know that even as we stand before the white throne judgement and our lives/works scroll before us and we weep and gnash for the appointed time, the outcome is Grace. The Grace that the Father provides In the Son. The end in any scenario is Grace.
We have so much to glory in before our Lord. The fellowship of the saints, the Paraclete that walks alongside us no matter the circumstances that living on this earth bring us. We have available to us the peace that passes all understanding. We can think on these things and be comforted and walk as lights in the world. We know and believe that our God who made heaven and earth and all that exists, made us in His image and likeness for purposes we can only guess at and wonder in wonder. We will one day see His face and know that we are Sons just as He is. He gave us Being in the light of how He referred to Himself when He said 'I am'. He exists. He existed before anything else and shared that 'being' with us in a universe He constructed for us.
He grieves deeply when we are so divided.
Maybe I will share a dream He sent me regarding that...the result was that I have an aversion to taking part in such. I can't overstate this.
We all need to endeavor with His help to be humble before Him and one another-- to be spiritually and intellectually honest enough to realize that we don't know it all and that some things we have held dear are towers that need crumbling.
It can be profitable to put away the written word, for a season, and seek Him with all of our hearts and minds.
I found it profitable some years ago before the Lord and spent a good amount of time thinking carefully about what I believed and just how I came to believe it.
It was and is an interesting exercise.
May we all continue to grow in Grace and Truth.
He said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is all we need and He has been given laviously and without condition.

That is a lot of really good sounding words.

I have no argument with you but I did notice something I question.

You said...…….
"It can be profitable to put away the written word, for a season, and seek Him with all of our hearts and minds."

I find that to be completely in disagreement with the Word of God. YOU are free to believe that and do that but it can not be done as a result of the Bible telling you to do so.

Jesus, Who is the Word (John 1:1, 14), has graciously given us His written Word, the Bible. The written Word was given to men by inspiration of God, and it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness (II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:21).

The Word is made alive by the Holy Spirit of God, causing it to be filled with divine energy and ability.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Jesus said in John 6:63...….
"The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Major1 · Aug 30, 2019

Oldmantook said:
The problem is - you are not infallible and are fallible, as I am also. You think your beliefs align with Scripture but I disagree. You are free to believe whatever you wish.

You are absolutely correct!!! I am just like you, a SINNER saved by grace.

I never said I was infallible. Lets be clear here my friend.
YOU said that because I do not agree with YOUR personal opinion of Universalism.

I will continue to believe what I have always believed and that is the perfect, infallible Word of God with no twists and no opinions needed.

Major1 · Aug 30, 2019

Hillsage said:
I think all of your CAPITALIZED and BOLD sentences above just makes many here think you aren't very discerning and it actually undermines your very credibility. I believe you are called and capable of better.

This verse doesn't help you, because it is speaking to Christians. Only they have the opportunity to be led of 'the Spirit' mind or to be led of 'the carnal'/flesh natured mind'. UNBELIEVERS can't because they are spiritually "DEAD" to God...even as you believe?

Only Christians can be "double minded" in your Romans 8 quote...according to James when he is admonishing sinful brethren.

JAM 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

OK, now I want you to look at what you just said in the BOLD UNDERLINE. And don't forget you are 'trying' to prove to me that unsaved people have FREE WILL!!!!

Well brother all I can say is "a man convinced against his will is always of the same opinion still." And you definitely appear to be bound to seeing what the bible isn't saying.

DOES ANYONE ON THIS THREAD AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT FROM THE MAJOR? I ask because I don't see it. If you do then step up.

Context Major context read verse 2, we aren't talking about believers.

Eph 2;2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

You're right, a dead man can't. And that's why the BIBLE says;

PHI 2:13 for God is at work IN YOU, both TO WILL and to work for his good pleasure.

And this verse is speaking to CHRISTIANS also. So if it's true for CHRISTIANS then....come on come on....thinking cap material here.....HE has to do so for those who aren't even saved.

Read this again. And then remember it is the very same verse I used to prove you aren't saved by your BLOOD heritage, or the WILL OF THE FLESH, or by the WILL of a MAN. But you are born again of HIS WILL and His WORK in you.

OK you simply provided another verse which is speaking to THE CHOSEN PEOPLE of God....correct? And God first chose them before He could even make this demand OF them. This verse did not apply to the heathen of the entire world who never knew anything about the God of ISRAEL.

Read above what I just bolded....you are correct..."GOD HAS CHOSEN" ....and "Called, drawn, predestined and appointed/ordained" who would be saved in this age they're presently living in. I think at the end, you are simply agreeing with what I've been saying all along. Which is a good thing IMO.

I said...……………..
"These verses tell us that before we are saved, we are at enmity (war) with God, we do not submit to God and His law, neither can we."

You said............
OK, now I want you to look at what you just said in the BOLD UNDERLINE. And don't forget you are 'trying' to prove to me that unsaved people have FREE WILL!!!! :doh:

I realize that your need on this site is to prove Universalism and show all who read what we post that you are a very intelligent man of the Bible. I get it!!!!

However, your posting of questions and situations leave me to suspect something different and I do not mean to disrepect you in any way. But you do not seem to understand some of the very basic's of Scripture and soteriology itself.

Romans 3:23.......
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Now think for a moment....... free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. As I stated already, our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. That is Biblically true as it is phycologically true.

For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge— WHY?????

Because his nature prevents him from flying. Birds fly by their nature, man does not so we are therefore limited in our choices by our nature. Honestly, this is not brain surgery.

In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous. WHY????
Because we are ALL sinners and our sin nature prevents us from canceling his guilt which is exactly wwhy I posted Romans 3:23.

So, I am very sorry you do not understand that but man's free will is limited by nature.

That is what Ephesians 2:1 said...……"WE are dead in our sins".

I then said...........
The Bible is clear that, in his natural state, man is incapable of choosing that which is good and holy. In other words, he does not have the “free will” to choose God because his will is not free. It is constrained by his nature, just as the prisoner is constrained by his cell.

That still stands as the truth of God's Word no matter how many people say otherwise.

BCsenior · Aug 30, 2019

Major1 said:
I will continue to believe what I have always believed and that is
the perfect, infallible Word of God with no twists and no opinions needed.

Problem is, as I have observed your posts elsewhere over the years,
that some of your conclusions re: the perfect, infallible Word of God
have been quite faulty indeed.

huiothesia · Aug 30, 2019

Major1 said:
You are absolutely correct!!! I am just like you, a SINNER saved by grace.

Major1 said:

That is a lot of really good sounding words.

I have no argument with you but I did notice something I question.

You said...…….
"It can be profitable to put away the written word, for a season, and seek Him with all of our hearts and minds."

I find that to be completely in disagreement with the Word of God. YOU are free to believe that and do that but it can not be done as a result of the Bible telling you to do so.

Jesus, Who is the Word (John 1:1, 14), has graciously given us His written Word, the Bible. The written Word was given to men by inspiration of God, and it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness (II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:21).

The Word is made alive by the Holy Spirit of God, causing it to be filled with divine energy and ability.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Jesus said in John 6:63...….
"The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Click to expand...

I never said I was infallible. Lets be clear here my friend.
YOU said that because I do not agree with YOUR personal opinion of Universalism.

I will continue to believe what I have always believed and that is the perfect, infallible Word of God with no twists and no opinions needed.

You are making an argument toward something that I didn't state. There is a fancy word for that, but it eludes me.
You agree that you are fallible and yet you state with energy that you will continue to believe what you have 'always' believed. My friend there are a number of things with this that don't square up.

Just as an aside---some of us, myself included, have experienced a great deal of pride in our studying the scriptures--to the point that we become numb to the Lord that they speak of. The study and the ability to articulate what we have found, become a large part of our soulish experience.
My suggestion is to take a break and seek Him and let the Holy Spirit through the doors we erect.
What I am speaking about is not uncommon, but it takes some (for want of being kind) flexibility.
This exercise certainly won't harm a person, and it might help a great deal. You and many of us have already absorbed the words. The Holy Spirit is capable of bringing them to remembrance and more importantly, to shed light. Take the words off the page and let them become life to you.
These are the things I had in mind with my comment.

Or put another way--"slow your roll".

mkgal1 · Aug 30, 2019

Major1 said:
Will God save all people

No

If one man remains outside the love of God then one man has defeated the love of God. - author unknown

I believe God's love will not fail.

BCsenior · Aug 30, 2019

huiothesia said:
You (Major1) agree that you are fallible and yet you state with energy
that you will continue to believe what you have 'always' believed.

Some people are so deceived, brainwashed, etc. in the doctrines of their church
that they are NOT teachable!
If one is NOT OPEN to new revelations from the Holy Spirit,
he/she will just remain where they are!

huiothesia · Aug 30, 2019

This true, but ya never know when scales fall off.
I am testament to this and if could turn, anyone can.
Lol

Oldmantook · Aug 30, 2019

Major1 said:
You are absolutely correct!!! I am just like you, a SINNER saved by grace.

I never said I was infallible. Lets be clear here my friend.
YOU said that because I do not agree with YOUR personal opinion of Universalism.

I will continue to believe what I have always believed and that is the perfect, infallible Word of God with no twists and no opinions needed.

Of course you're not infallible but you write as if your interpretation/belief is infallible and not subject to scrutiny claiming that it aligns with Scripture. I obviously disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Of course you're not infallible but you write as if your interpretation/belief is infallible and not subject to scrutiny claiming that it aligns with Scripture. I obviously disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

I am telling you nothing that is not found in the Scriptures.

What you are experiencing is the conviction of the Holy Spirit as He opens your heart to the truth of God's Word.

The more we discuss this the stronger will be His work on you.

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

mkgal1 said:
If one man remains outside the love of God then one man has defeated the love of God. - author unknown

I believe God's love will not fail.

As do I...…...But the Scriptures tell us that NO ALL people will be saved.

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
Some people are so deceived, brainwashed, etc. in the doctrines of their church
that they are NOT teachable!
If one is NOT OPEN to new revelations from the Holy Spirit,
he/she will just remain where they are!

And that is the exact reason why the written Word of God is so important to be rooted in as it and only it is the basis for truth.

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

huiothesia said:
You are making an argument toward something that I didn't state. There is a fancy word for that, but it eludes me.
You agree that you are fallible and yet you state with energy that you will continue to believe what you have 'always' believed. My friend there are a number of things with this that don't square up.

Just as an aside---some of us, myself included, have experienced a great deal of pride in our studying the scriptures--to the point that we become numb to the Lord that they speak of. The study and the ability to articulate what we have found, become a large part of our soulish experience.
My suggestion is to take a break and seek Him and let the Holy Spirit through the doors we erect.
What I am speaking about is not uncommon, but it takes some (for want of being kind) flexibility.
This exercise certainly won't harm a person, and it might help a great deal. You and many of us have already absorbed the words. The Holy Spirit is capable of bringing them to remembrance and more importantly, to shed light. Take the words off the page and let them become life to you.
These are the things I had in mind with my comment.

Or put another way--"slow your roll".

I appreciate your opinion. However, what I believe is what the Bible tells all of us.

I do not need the opinions or thoughts of men in place of the Scriptures.

MY dear friend...….why would a believer need to take a break from the Holy Spirit????

I have been in Bible study now for over 50 years and I have done exactly as you just said...…"Take the words off the page and let them become life to you."

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
Problem is, as I have observed your posts elsewhere over the years,
that some of your conclusions re: the perfect, infallible Word of God
have been quite faulty indeed.

Thank you for your opinion.

Now that you have given it, I am going to ask you to post something that I have said which is "faulty" - not in line with the INFALLIBE WORD OF GOD.

Now YOU may not agree with what I post, and that is fine because I am sure that goes both ways. Now all you have to do is to post what you claim I said.

IF I have said something non-Biblical or "Faulty" based on the Scriptures, I would like the opportunity to apologize.

mkgal1 · Aug 31, 2019

Major1 said:
As do I...…...But the Scriptures tell us that NOT ALL people will be saved.

Saved from what, though? I don't believe Jesus was referring to an after life. I believe He was warning against something else.

Read that verse within it's context of the whole chapter.(Luke 13 ).I believe Jesus was addressing the people that were with Him at the time (not following generations like us). Look at these verses specifically (but please, read the whole chapter):

Luke 13:3-5 - But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Luke 13:31 - At that very hour, some Pharisees came to Jesus and told Him, “Leave this place and get away, because Herod wants to kill You.”

Major1 · Aug 31, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Saved from what, though? I don't believe Jesus was referring to an after life.

Read that verse within it's context of the whole believe chapter.(Luke 13 ).I believe Jesus was addressing the people that were with Him at the time. Look at this verse specifically:

Luke 13:31 - At that very hour, some Pharisees came to Jesus and told Him, “Leave this place and get away, because Herod wants to kill You.”

"SAVED" is a word which means that if we are saved, we then as believers will not go through the coming judgment for our sins. Jesus paid for the sins of ALL men but every man has to receive that gift by faith in what He did for them.

Luke 13:23-24 .....
"Someone asked him, "LORD, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Matthew 7:14 ........
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The Bible does not teach the doctrine of universalism - that is to say, that ultimately all men will be saved. This is taught today; they tell us that the sinner and the saint, the man who has no love for God and the Christian, all will be gathered into God’s kingdom.

This is not scriptural. The Bible does not teach this - look carefully at Luke 13:24,
”will not be able "weeping…” Surely this makes it very clear that all will not be saved - compare Matthew 13:29 with John 3:18 and John 3:36, and look up the three unanswered questions in the New Testament - Mark 8:36; Hebrews 2:3; 1 Peter 4:17. Thank God all may be saved, but all will not be saved.

Luke 13:31 means Jesus fully knew that going to Jerusalem would not procure safety for himself. On the other hand, he had repeatedly prophesied that his death would occur in that city; and, by these words, Christ signaled the Pharisees that he knew all about their wicked plans to murder him. The construction of his words here has the effect of saying that our Lord enjoyed greater safety anywhere other than in Jerusalem.

mkgal1 · Aug 31, 2019

Major1 said:
SAVED" is a word which means that if we are saved, we then as believers will not go through the coming judgment for our sins

That's what modern teaching instructs us - but I don't believe that fits with what Jesus was saying. A judgement was coming to first century ancient Jerusalem - and that's what I believe Jesus' instruction was about.

Oldmantook · Aug 31, 2019

Major1 said:
I am telling you nothing that is not found in the Scriptures.

What you are experiencing is the conviction of the Holy Spirit as He opens your heart to the truth of God's Word.

The more we discuss this the stronger will be His work on you.

You're full of presumptions aren't you?

mkgal1 · Aug 31, 2019

Major1 said:
This is not scriptural. The Bible does not teach this - look carefully at Luke 13:24,
”will not be able "weeping…” Surely this makes it very clear that all will not be saved - compare Matthew 13:29 with John 3:18 and John 3:36, and look up the three unanswered questions in the New Testament - Mark 8:36; Hebrews 2:3; 1 Peter 4:17. Thank God all may be saved, but all will not be saved.

But you're beginning with a presumption that isn't in the text about what Jesus meant by "saved". You're also cobbling together a few verses, but not addressing others that are in context.

For instance, Luke 13:7 - So he said to the keeper of the vineyard, ’Look, for the past three years I have come to search for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Therefore cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

ETA: a passage that parallels Luke 13:7 is this, it was the corrupt religious system that was prophesied to be "cut down" and suffer an everlasting punishment (never again to arise and represent God in the Temple):

Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
(Luke 11:37-54)

Matthew 23 - 1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, burdensomea loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, 7the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ‘Rabbi’ by which they are addressed.

8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

.....this is what I believe Jesus was teaching them to be "saved" from - this judgement:

The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matthew 24:15-25; Mark 13:14-23)

Luke 21: 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

huiothesia · Aug 31, 2019

Major1 said:
I appreciate your opinion. However, what I believe is what the Bible tells all of us.

I do not need the opinions or thoughts of men in place of the Scriptures.

MY dear friend...….why would a believer need to take a break from the Holy Spirit????

I have been in Bible study now for over 50 years and I have done exactly as you just said...…"Take the words off the page and let them become life to you."

How in the world did you get that from what I wrote.
Take a break from the Holy Spirit?
I suggested the opposite.
Reading comprehension? I am wondering now...if this is a core issue, as you seem to both respond out of context and quote scripture out of context.
I get it.

Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Still an evangelist

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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