Salvation Cannot be Lost

Phil W

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The short answer is that eternal life which has been given to believers as the gift of God, is not temporary but eternal. If it can be taken away from believers, it would not be eternal, and God would be lying when He says that the new life He gives to converted believers is eternal.
Which brings up this question...are those who rebel against God "believers"?
The devils believe...and quake.
 
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Which brings up this question...are those who rebel against God "believers"?
The devils believe...and quake.
The believers that I am talking about are genuinely converted Christian believers who have received the gift of saving faith from the Lord. The devils believe from an intellectual point of view, but they cannot believe in any saving manner.

There are three steps to justifying faith:
1. Intellectual belief - but this is just mental assent, and Judas and the devils had that belief, and it was not enough to save them.
2. Total commitment to Christ on the basis of faith. This is justifying faith because it comes only through the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit, no justifying faith.
3. Total assurance of salvation. If a person has just (1) he can never have assurance of salvation. But if he has (2) he can have assurance of salvation, but assurance is not necessary for salvation. Many true believe go through life without assurance and struggle with all sorts of fears and doubts, and only know that they are saved when they find themselves in heaven when they die. But having assurance of salvation is the most blessed state to be in because one is justified and knows it beyond any doubt.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't need to prove anything since these threads get repeated a lot and no one changes their minds.
Those who hold a belief should be able to defend them. Those who claim "I don't need to prove anything" shows an inability to defend their beliefs.

Mentioning John 10:28 shows this is going to be one of those threads.
Interesting. v.28 is the single MOST CLEAR verse in the Bible on eternal security.

Jesus taught that those who believe HAVE (as in current possession) eternal life. That means having it from the moment they believe. Esp since there are no verses that teach that eternal life is given some time AFTER believing.

Then, Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (that would be believers, of course) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Can't get over it.
Can't get around it.
Can't get under it.
Can't get through it.

So, just believe it.

If there is ANY condition that would result in loss of salvatyion (eternal life), then what Jesus said would be a lie, pure and simple.

But Jesus is the Son of God. He never lied. Ever.

Those given eternal life shall never perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It talks about foreign enemies taking the believers, not the believers leaving for their own will.
If foreign enemies can take a believer (remove their eternal life), then what Jesus said in John 10:28 and 29 is untrue.

We are kept by God. We are not kept by ourselves.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Amen. And if eternal life could be lost, taken back, etc, that would make Jesus' promise in John 10:28 a lie.
Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Please read it again. It says nothing about losing salvation. It does say that it is impossible for those who have "fallen away" (by returning to the Mosaic law and animal sacrifice) to be restored to repentance.

iow, those believers who returned (or were planning to, because of persecution) to animal sacrifices are not going to change their minds (repent) of their actions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Which brings up this question...are those who rebel against God "believers"?
The devils believe...and quake.
The answer depends upon whether such rebels have ever believed in Christ for eternal life. Then, such believers are saved, because Jesus gives eternal life to believers, and He promises that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
 
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FreeGrace2

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The devils believe...and quake.
The issue is what they believe. According to James 2:19 they believe that God is One. That is called "monotheism", which was particular to Jews. Gentiles were generally polytheistic.

There was no 'faith' involved in what the devils believe. They believe that God is One because all angels were created by Him and lived with Him in heaven. They experienced monotheism.

So let's not confuse James 2:19 with some kind of non saving "faith".

Believing from experience doesn't include faith at all.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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The short answer is that eternal life which has been given to believers as the gift of God, is not temporary but eternal. If it can be taken away from believers, it would not be eternal, and God would be lying when He says that the new life He gives to converted believers is eternal.

So, in essence, many are calling God a liar! I find this underrepresented section of Hebrews 6 to be amazing:

13For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15And thus Abraham,b having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

It is impossible for God to lie! Let no one call Him a liar, let's simply BELIEVE His promises to us.
 
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eleos1954

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FreeGrace2 said:
Amen. And if eternal life could be lost, taken back, etc, that would make Jesus' promise in John 10:28 a lie.

Please read it again. It says nothing about losing salvation. It does say that it is impossible for those who have "fallen away" (by returning to the Mosaic law and animal sacrifice) to be restored to repentance.

iow, those believers who returned (or were planning to, because of persecution) to animal sacrifices are not going to change their minds (repent) of their actions.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

True this book is written to the Jewish christians, who had just been exposed to the wonderful truth that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah. If they rejected the clear evidence of the Word and Holy Spirit regarding this precious truth, there was nothing more that God could do to convince them.

This is what Jesus referred to when He said, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead” (Luke 16:31 NKJV). In other words, if we reject Jesus and the Holy Spirit after knowing them, we are turning away from the best that God has to offer us. There is nothing better He can send to convince us to follow His Word.

This truth is borne out more fully a little later in Hebrews: “For if we sin (including himself) willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26, 27). God cannot save us from continuing in willful sin and rejection of the Holy Spirit.

The term fallen away

Strongs

Strong's Concordance
parapiptó: to fall in, into or away, to fail
Original Word: παραπίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: parapiptó
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ap-ip'-to)
Definition: to fall in, into or away, to fail
Usage: I fall away, fall back (into the unbelieving and godless ways of the old time).
HELPS Word-studies
3895 parapíptō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 4098 /píptō, "to fall") – properly, fall away, after being close-beside; to defect(abandon).

3895 /parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6.

Believers are believers whether jewish or not.

(by returning to the Mosaic law and animal sacrifice) to be restored to repentance.

iow, those believers who returned (or were planning to, because of persecution) to animal sacrifices are not going to change their minds (repent) of their actions

Verses in Hebrews that support this idea?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Amen. And if eternal life could be lost, taken back, etc, that would make Jesus' promise in John 10:28 a lie."
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

True this book is written to the Jewish christians, who had just been exposed to the wonderful truth that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah. If they rejected the clear evidence of the Word and Holy Spirit regarding this precious truth, there was nothing more that God could do to convince them.
The whole context of Hebrews is to Jewish believers.

This is what Jesus referred to when He said, “If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead” (Luke 16:31 NKJV). In other words, if we reject Jesus and the Holy Spirit after knowing them, we are turning away from the best that God has to offer us. There is nothing better He can send to convince us to follow His Word.
The audience for Hebrews were Jews who HAD believed the gospel, but, due to persecution from orthodox Jews, were turning back, or planning, to animal sacrifices.

This truth is borne out more fully a little later in Hebrews: “For if we sin (including himself) willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26, 27). God cannot save us from continuing in willful sin and rejection of the Holy Spirit.
Let's look at v.18 first, for context:

And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

The author establishes that, because of Christ's perfect sacrifice, there are no more sacrifices needed. He did it all.

So, v.26 simply re-states that principle. And the context for the rest of ch 10 is that those believers who DO sin willfully WILL be heavily disciplined.

The term fallen away

Strongs

Strong's Concordance
parapiptó: to fall in, into or away, to fail
Original Word: παραπίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: parapiptó
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ap-ip'-to)
Definition: to fall in, into or away, to fail
Usage: I fall away, fall back (into the unbelieving and godless ways of the old time).
HELPS Word-studies
3895 parapíptō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 4098 /píptō, "to fall") – properly, fall away, after being close-beside; to defect(abandon).

3895 /parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6.
Absolutely! Once a believer, always saved.

Here's proof from Scripture:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you see the point of these 2 verses? Condemnation is based on NEVER having believed. Not having believed but then changing to unbelief or rejection.

Believers are believers whether jewish or not.
Once a believer, there is no condemnation. Ever.

Verses in Hebrews that support this idea?
My comments about the believing Jews returning to animal sacrifice is noted by a number of scholars. Persecution was great against believing Jews. It was tempting to go back to animal sacrifice to avoid persecution.

I will quote from my own study Bible on the background for the occasion of the book:

"Persecution is a real threat to the church at Rome. This persecution causes many Jewish believers, who have died to their legalistic,, Judiac ways, to take some steps backward. The author uses this occasion to express the freedom that Christ has given to all believers, and asserts that with Christ there is no need for any of the rituals offered by Judaism. Appealing to their knowledge of the OT, the author especially comments on parallels from the Pentateuch."
 
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Not David

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The issue is what they believe. According to James 2:19 they believe that God is One. That is called "monotheism", which was particular to Jews. Gentiles were generally polytheistic.

There was no 'faith' involved in what the devils believe. They believe that God is One because all angels were created by Him and lived with Him in heaven. They experienced monotheism.

So let's not confuse James 2:19 with some kind of non saving "faith".

Believing from experience doesn't include faith at all.
Sure, go with that.
 
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Phil W

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The believers that I am talking about are genuinely converted Christian believers who have received the gift of saving faith from the Lord. The devils believe from an intellectual point of view, but they cannot believe in any saving manner.
I'm always glad to hear about other non-sinners.

There are three steps to justifying faith:
1. Intellectual belief - but this is just mental assent, and Judas and the devils had that belief, and it was not enough to save them.
2. Total commitment to Christ on the basis of faith. This is justifying faith because it comes only through the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit, no justifying faith.
3. Total assurance of salvation. If a person has just (1) he can never have assurance of salvation. But if he has (2) he can have assurance of salvation, but assurance is not necessary for salvation. Many true believe go through life without assurance and struggle with all sorts of fears and doubts, and only know that they are saved when they find themselves in heaven when they die. But having assurance of salvation is the most blessed state to be in because one is justified and knows it beyond any doubt.
Can you see that those who still serve sin are not "totally committed to Christ"?
There is no assurance for sinners.
 
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Phil W

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The answer depends upon whether such rebels have ever believed in Christ for eternal life. Then, such believers are saved, because Jesus gives eternal life to believers, and He promises that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
How about believing in Jesus for protection from temptation?
Don't the beliefs go hand-in-hand?
Sinners show a false belief, picking the good and ignoring the "bad"
"Bad" like "endure till the end", and "Whosoever committith sin is the servant of sin."
And "No man can serve two masters."
Or, "Faith without works is dead."
 
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Phil W

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The issue is what they believe. According to James 2:19 they believe that God is One. That is called "monotheism", which was particular to Jews. Gentiles were generally polytheistic.

There was no 'faith' involved in what the devils believe. They believe that God is One because all angels were created by Him and lived with Him in heaven. They experienced monotheism.

So let's not confuse James 2:19 with some kind of non saving "faith".

Believing from experience doesn't include faith at all.
Can you have faith without belief?
Or belief without faith?
I think not!
 
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I'm always glad to hear about other non-sinners.


Can you see that those who still serve sin are not "totally committed to Christ"?
There is no assurance for sinners.
But the genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin. He is not under the power or penalty of sin. But there is still the presence of sin and temptation and it is part of the territory for mortal man.

Sin for the believer is like bed bugs. It is an unwelcome irritant and causes a true believer to look forward earnestly to the time when he will be in glory and free from the constant irritation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have a better interpretation?

What you can't argue with is what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish.
That you die, shows you don't have eternal life yet.
I'd like to introduce you to some things that Jesus said about possession of eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

The red words tell us that those who believe have, as in present tense possession, eternal life

The blue words tell us that those who have eternal life won't be judged.

The green words tell us that those who believe have already passed from spiritual death to eternal life.

Do you have a better understanding of these verses and colored words?

Also, let's not forget what the beloved apostle said about eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.

Here, John agrees with Jesus. The word 'have' is a present tense verse. The believer HAS eternal life right now. Not some future promise.

If there is still any confusion about the matter, let's back up 2 verses:

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God HAS GIVEN us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If the possession of eternal life is future only, then John must have been sadly mistaken.

But he wasn't. He was in total agreement with Jesus.

And don't forget that those Jesus gives eternal life to will never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
 
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FreeGrace2

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How about believing in Jesus for protection from temptation?
The Bible says nothing about this kind of belief for salvation.

Don't the beliefs go hand-in-hand?
Please exlain.

Sinners show a false belief, picking the good and ignoring the "bad"
"Bad" like "endure till the end", and "Whosoever committith sin is the servant of sin."
And "No man can serve two masters."
Or, "Faith without works is dead."
Doesn't Jesus' promise in John 10:28 mean anything?
 
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