we are ALL PREDESTINED

renniks said:

Yeah Calvin had a solution for this, he called it effervescent Grace. The theory that God would enlighten you temporarily, make you think you were his, and then drop you like a hot potato. Obviously,if you think God is just picking and choosing people based on nothing, you can never know if your salvation is real or not.

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If people are self deceived into believing they are God's chosen when they are not; that is not God's fault.

The Righterzpen said:

Those that fall away into false teaching and unbelief and die in that state; are only showing evidence that they were never redeemed to begin with.

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Hebrews 3: 12-19
1st Timothy 4:1

The Righterzpen said:

If people are self deceived into believing they are God's chosen when they are not; that is not God's fault.

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According to Calvin it was God's doing...in fact in that system everything is God's doing, so nothing can be blamed on man.

roman2819 said:

No, irresistible grace is not the way you say it. Irresistible grace simply means that sinners do not have to do good works to be redeemed, but instead, they need to repent in Jesus, and God will save them. However, people have to decide whether to accept such grace or not.

Your various quotes from Job to etc are out of context. If you ignore context, you can say anything.

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And you can say anyone who does not agree with your interpretation is "ignoring context". That phrases is about as useful as calling someone "racist" today. It's an epitaph that's so overused it doesn't mean anything.

Grace isn't grace if you're working for it. Repentance is a work ignited in the person by an awakening that comes about as a result of the Spirit of God working in that person.

Romans 2:4
Or despise thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance?

The Righterzpen said:

And as I have stated; your accusation has already been addressed in this thread.

The "cooperate election" argument does not make sense in the light that not all Jews were saved and not all gentiles are saved either. The individuals who show forth evidence of their election are the individuals who are obedient; regardless of what nation they were born in.

Those who are obedient (because they were elect) "collectively" make up the body of Christ. So in that sense if you wanted to say election is "cooperate" that would be the only sense that would be true in. Individuals cooperatively make up the eternal church.

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Notice that i said God predestined TO OFFER redemption to all gentiles. I did NOT say that God would redeem all Gentiles automatically.

This is where context matters when we interpret verses. The Bible says people must repent in order to be redeemed. Jesus spoke about repentence in order for sinners to be saved. This is the precedence. Now, there are d9mr verses that say you must believe in order to be saved, but does this mean repentence is not necessary? If you ignore the larger context of the Bible, you can insist on that, but is it correct?

Likewise, the Bible might not spell out every word that "God predestined to offer redemption to gentiles on condition that they repent" but we have to see it from the larger context.

renniks said:

Hebrews 3: 12-19
1st Timothy 4:1

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12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

And the rest of the verses you quoted go on to describe what the end result of that unbelief is.

17 But with whom was He grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

Interesting! Is it those who are unredeemed who grieve the Spirit; who in the end perish? Which is an interesting angle because those who are redeemed don't grieve God on account of their eternal destiny, because they aren't eternally lost in the end. I'll have to study that a little more closely!

18 And to whom swear He that they should not enter into His rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Interesting - a decree made by God (He swears) they not enter into His rest because of unbelief. Knowing that because all humanity is in a state of unbelief, that if God did not redeem some; no one would enter into His rest!

GENIUS PLAN BOSS!

I Timothy 4:
4 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

(Yeah, God tells us this would happen.)

Thanks @renniks - you've just proven my point. These things come down via decree of God. He has decreed that no one that He has not elected, chosen and predestine to redemption will enter into His eternal Kingdom!

YOU DA BOSS! (What else can I say?)

The Righterzpen said:

And you can say anyone who does not agree with your interpretation is "ignoring context". That phrases is about as useful as calling someone "racist" today. It's an epitaph that's so overused it doesn't mean anything.

Grace isn't grace if you're working for it. Repentance is a work ignited in the person by an awakening that comes about as a result of the Spirit of God working in that person.

Romans 2:4
Or despise thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance?

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Anyone who make the effort to read 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3 will be able to see the context.

Unfortunately there are many who having chose to believe individual predestination before, just refuse to make sense of these 70 verses.

The Righterzpen said:

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

And the rest of the verses you quoted go on to describe what the end result of that unbelief is

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Yes, and he's talking to brethren, so it is clear that people that are saved can fall into unbelief and not be saved.

roman2819 said:

Notice that i said God predestined TO OFFER redemption to all gentiles. I did NOT say that God would redeem all Gentiles automatically.

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Many are called; few are chosen.

roman2819 said:

This is where context matters when we interpret verses. The Bible says people must repent in order to be redeemed.

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It also says that it's the goodness of God that leads to repentance; not human intention. Humans if left to their own devices; don't intend to repent.

roman2819 said:

Likewise, the Bible might not spell out every word that "God predestined to offer redemption to gentiles on condition that they repent" but we have to see it from the larger context.

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LOL - the Bible doesn't say "God predestines to OFFER redemption..." It says:

Romans 8:
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Verse 30 gives us contextual explanation of what it means to be "called" in relation to predestination; as opposed to "Many are called, few are chosen". They are two different Greek words. Matthew 22:14 falls in line with "God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked." Yet there are those He allows to reap the consequence of their sin.

Like you keep saying: "Context is everything!"

The Righterzpen said:

Interesting - a decree made by God (He swears) they not enter into His rest because of unbelief. Knowing that because all humanity is in a state of unbelief, that if God did not redeem some; no one would enter into His rest!

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Did he decree that they would not believe? No, he swore they would not be saved because of unbelief. His will is that all will believe and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

renniks said:

Yes, and he's talking to brethren, so it is clear that people that are saved can fall into unbelief and not be saved.

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The warning given is that they check themselves to make sure they do not have a heart of unbelief. Just because someone claims to be a brother; does not mean that they are.

There are other places in the epistles where Paul speaks of false brethren. 2 Corinthians 11:26, Galatians 2:4

renniks said:

Did he decree that they would not believe? No, he swore they would not be saved because of unbelief. His will is that all will believe and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

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LOL - God did not have to decree that they would not believe. They WILLFULLY do that all on their own.

Again, you constantly misrepresent the doctrines of grace. No one has ever said God causes some to sin or to not believe.

The Righterzpen said:

The warning given is that they check themselves to make sure they do not have a heart of unbelief. Just because someone claims to be a brother; does not mean that they are.

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Why would Paul call somebody a brother who isn't? It's clearly a warning to not fall into unbelief.

roman2819 said:

Anyone who make the effort to read 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3 will be able to see the context.

Unfortunately there are many who having chose to believe individual predestination before, just refuse to make sense of these 70 verses.

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Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't see your position as Biblical and do you at least agree that nothing I tell you is going to convince you otherwise?

renniks said:

Why would Paul call somebody a brother who isn't? It's clearly a warning to not fall into unbelief.

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Paul is acknowledging that they confess to being brothers; but Paul is fully aware that not everyone who claims to be a believer really is. He has no way of knowing who are elect and who aren't; and he has no way of seeing their hearts, so this is why he gives the warning to all of them.

If he was convinced they were all believers; there would be no reason to give the warning.

nolidad said:

Once again- if hate means the same in all usages and one must ignore that Jews used love and hate as a euphemism to prefer and not prefer, Then you are declaring that Jesus contradicted Himself and Paul contradicted Jesus and we haqve a scrambled egg for a bible! I do not believe you think that! That sounds "heavy"! But I am "cool" with that, and I hope you think it is "groovy" and can "dig" it!

My last sentence is spoken literally- but are the words in quotes to be understood in their literal definition? of course not!

This is not Jewish historians or anything like that- It was and still is Jewish culture. When making comparisons between two or more things- it was not uncommon at all for Jews to say they loved one and hated the other. It simply means they like one over the other! Otherwise you are saying Jesus demands we despise our parents, wives, children aunts and uncles! That is not true! Yes we should be consistent across scripture- that is the heart of a literal hermeneutic! But context and grammatical usages are also required. If Jews used this in comparing between two or more things- we MUST take note of that and in its proper context.

It is because too many people ignore idiomatic usage of language that modern believers have had such a hard time understanding parts of Scripture.

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Yes, when Scriptures were written 2000 to 3000 years ago, the Jews used certain words differently. Most modern readers are not aware of that and try to apply today 's language to interpret ancient words. Good point about how the words love and hate are used.

Even the word 'day' in Genesis does not mean 24 hours day. In Genesis 1, 'day' refer to a stage or phase. But in religious manuscript, the word 'day' fit the prose of writing.

The Righterzpen said:

Many are called; few are chosen.



It also says that it's the goodness of God that leads to repentance; not human intention. Humans if left to their own devices; don't intend to repent.



LOL - the Bible doesn't say "God predestines to OFFER redemption..." It says:

Romans 8:
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Verse 30 gives us contextual explanation of what it means to be "called" in relation to predestination; as opposed to "Many are called, few are chosen". They are two different Greek words. Matthew 22:14 falls in line with "God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked." Yet there are those He allows to reap the consequence of their sin.

Like you keep saying: "Context is everything!"

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Romans 8:29 has to be interpreted in context of Ephesians 1,2 3. And Ephesians have to be interpreted in light of the Bible, which is repentence before redemption.

As for the verse 'many are called, few are chosen'. During biblical timres, people wouldnt say tbey choose God or accepted his offer of redemption. Back then it would be arrogant to say they chose to believe in God. Even though they did have to make the decision to repent and turn to Him, they humbly said that God chose them.

One of the obstacle for Christians today, when interpreting Scriptures, is we are not aware that certain words have different connotations during biblical times. It is not always correct or enough to apply modern language to interpret ancient texts. While it is inevitable, however, the least is to be aware of it.

The Righterzpen said:

LOL - God did not have to decree that they would not believe. They WILLFULLY do that all on their own.

Again, you constantly misrepresent the doctrines of grace. No one has ever said God causes some to sin or to not believe.

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No, you misunderstand it. The basis of Calvinism is that God decrees everything. The reformers put it in the confession, but you keep trying to deny it.

The Righterzpen said:

If he was convinced they were all believers; there would be no reason to give the warning.

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"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." That was Paul too.

The Righterzpen said:

You still haven't answered the question though.

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Well euphemisms are identified by their usage in all languages and cultures.

Jews, when making comparisons between two or more things commonly say they love on and hate the rest.

So no when hate is used in all other contexts, it is not euphemistic because it is not making a comparison between 2 people or places or things. "dig it?". and I am not talking abut making a hole with a shovel!