Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?

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I think many people choose evil, knowing by conscience it's evil, silencing that voice because of egoistic reasons.

What about those who lack full information and do the wrong thing for the right reasons? Is the road to hell paved with good intentions?
 
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Light of the East

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Clarification: When I said that life is an illusion, I should have defined further what exactly I meant.

Life is very real. Cut yourself and bleed and you will find out just how real it is. The illusion is that which the world sells us as being important: fame, power, sex, money, etc. These are the things that do not last, hence, they are illusion. Go to any graveyard and ask yourself, as you stand in front of a tombstone, what difference fame, power, money, sex, etc. make in the existence of this soul now. The soul in that grave now sees clearly what is really important.

As for God being fair - yes, He is ultimately fair, so for those who never heard of Christ, never heard the Gospel preached, were turned off from God by pathetic excuses for a Christian who preached hate and judgment, who only heard about false gods - for all those people there will be an opportunity in the next life for them to see clearly who Jesus is and to bow in humble submission before Him.

That is only fair!!
 
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lismore

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And up until the Protestant Rebellion (against the utter corrupt Romish Church) the Church prohibited the taking of usury.

You can thank Calvin and Luther for the thieving system in which we live today.

Venice and Genoa were centres of banking long before the Reformation. God Bless :)
 
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Halbhh

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Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice

I was just reading this again, and this part made me think: '...well, you'd have to have omniscience to make the perfect free will choice....'. And that's the reason we have to avoid leaning on our own philosophy as our guide when the Word says something different, in anything, about anything. Because we cannot ever have that total omniscience here. Only God does.

Here's a potent example, that goes very much against our fleshy impulses --

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
------------

It's a perfect response we hear here to return wrongs against us with love, to do good for those that are doing bad towards ourselves. That's the 'perfect' response -- it's what Christ did for us! He died for us when we we're still enemies of God.

Our philosophy may want to find a way around that, like (just one example of dozens of possible examples) "Ok, He's got to be speaking hyperbolically with this 'love your enemy' stuff -- who could do that?? -- cause I know He did use hyperbole somewhere else once, right."
[even though it's not at all a hyperbolic style of wording here, we could try to fool ourselves into thinking so for example...]

But it's true we could not do that much or well without Him. But we have Him if we have surrendered in faith that He is Lord of us [for each of us], personally our Lord.

With the mind/heart/soul -- free will -- He has given each of us, we can turn to Him.
 
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Halbhh

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Clarification: When I said that life is an illusion, I should have defined further what exactly I meant.

Life is very real. Cut yourself and bleed and you will find out just how real it is. The illusion is that which the world sells us as being important: fame, power, sex, money, etc. These are the things that do not last, hence, they are illusion. Go to any graveyard and ask yourself, as you stand in front of a tombstone, what difference fame, power, money, sex, etc. make in the existence of this soul now. The soul in that grave now sees clearly what is really important.

As for God being fair - yes, He is ultimately fair, so for those who never heard of Christ, never heard the Gospel preached, were turned off from God by pathetic excuses for a Christian who preached hate and judgment, who only heard about false gods - for all those people there will be an opportunity in the next life for them to see clearly who Jesus is and to bow in humble submission before Him.

That is only fair!!
It seems to at least some commentaries (I've only read a couple) that the amazing revelation in 1rst Peter chapter 3, about how Christ descended to the dead, to the spirits in prison, and it's understood He brought the gospel to them (!), and that the people from before the flood may be only a representative example, that all who never heard the true gospel would hear it, there. (See Ellicott's commentary at the bottom of verse 19 at Biblehub for instance) This is somewhat a mystery, but it is possible it means everyone who had not ever heard the true gospel, in all of time. But we remember also that God only judges fairly with perfect knowledge, and according to the understanding of the person, even to account for their actions on the basis of whatever their faithfulness to the level of conscience they have: Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, dhe went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

(NIV version. And here's the ESV instead to see: 1 Peter 3 ESV)
 
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Ricky M

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As for God being fair - yes, He is ultimately fair, so for those who never heard of Christ, never heard the Gospel preached, were turned off from God by pathetic excuses for a Christian who preached hate and judgment, who only heard about false gods - for all those people there will be an opportunity in the next life for them to see clearly who Jesus is and to bow in humble submission before Him.

I can't recall ever in all my years hearing something like that. But this does paint an interesting picture to that effect:

It seems to at least some commentaries (I've only read a couple) that the amazing revelation in 1rst Peter chapter 3, about how Christ descended to the dead, to the spirits in prison, and it's understood He brought the gospel to them (!), and that the people from before the flood may be only a representative example, that all who never heard the true gospel would hear it, there. (See Ellicott's commentary at the bottom of verse 19 at Biblehub for instance) This is somewhat a mystery, but it is possible it means everyone who had not ever heard the true gospel, in all of time. But we remember also that God only judges fairly with perfect knowledge, and according to the understanding of the person, even to account for their actions on the basis of whatever their faithfulness to the level of conscience they have: Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16.

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, dhe went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

(NIV version. And here's the ESV instead to see: 1 Peter 3 ESV)
 
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No. Those who are condemned to eternal torment will be there because they did not accept Christ's gift of salvation. Period. It really is just that simple.

So:
The young rape victim who leaves a suicide note expressing disgusted unbelief in Christ - hellbound?

The atheist soldier who valiantly sacrificed his life out there on Hill 42 so his platoon could escape to fight another day - hellbound?

Brother, even man's justice system is better than that. God's is based on the principle 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. So if you preach hellfire, how then will you escape the judgment of hellfire?
 
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_Dave_

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So:
The young rape victim who leaves a suicide note expressing disgusted unbelief in Christ - hellbound?

The atheist soldier who valiantly sacrificed his life out there on Hill 42 so his platoon could escape to fight another day - hellbound?

Brother, even man's justice system is better than that. God's is based on the principle 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. So if you preach hellfire, how then will you escape the judgment of hellfire?
Hello Shrewd, I don't make the rules. You identify as Christian, so you should know there is no way to heaven except through Christ. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
 
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Hello Shrewd, I don't make the rules. You identify as Christian, so you should know there is no way to heaven except through Christ. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Where did I say otherwise Dave? Those people get a second chance. For with God, there's always hope. The gates of the City of God stand ever-open, the invitation to wash up in Lamb's blood (ie the life of Christ) and come on in is never closed. That's our God, He stretches out His mighty arm all the livelong day.
 
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RDKirk

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Where did I say otherwise Dave? Those people get a second chance. For with God, there's always hope. The gates of the City of God stand ever-open, the invitation to wash up in Lamb's blood (ie the life of Christ) and come on in is never closed. That's our God, He stretches out His mighty arm all the livelong day.

You have no more basis for asserting positively that they get a second chance than Dave has for asserting positively that they can't.
 
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You have no more basis for asserting positively that they get a second chance than Dave has for asserting positively that they can't.

False. The lake of fire revives. It's God's pure grace.

The nations are devoured by fire (Rev 20:9), and/or thrown into the lake of fire (20:15). New heaven and earth appear (21:1), City descends to earth (21:2), God makes everything new (21:5), reprobates thrown into lake of fire (21:8). Then...the nations will walk by the City lights and bring their honour and glory in (21:25-26), as they are now pure and alive (21:27).

THEY'RE BACK.

Check against Ezekiel 47:1-12 Millennial Temple prophecy: river of life refreshes Dead Sea and brings everything to life (47:8-9).

Check against Isaiah prophecy: 66:23 All mankind shall come worship.

And there shall be no more curse (Rev 22:3), and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be upon all. Amen.

Case closed.
 
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RDKirk

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False. The lake of fire revives. It's God's pure grace.

The nations are devoured by fire (Rev 20:9), and/or thrown into the lake of fire (20:15). New heaven and earth appear (21:1), City descends to earth (21:2), God makes everything new (21:5), reprobates thrown into lake of fire (21:8). Then...the nations will walk by the City lights and bring their honour and glory in (21:25-26), as they are now pure and alive (21:27).

THEY'RE BACK.

Check against Ezekiel 47:1-12 Millennial Temple prophecy: river of life refreshes Dead Sea and brings everything to life (47:8-9).

Check against Isaiah prophecy: 66:23 All mankind shall come worship.

And there shall be no more curse (Rev 22:3), and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be upon all. Amen.

Case closed.

Okay, then your argument is Universalism, then?
 
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food4thought

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We choose deception because we are selfish and wish to justify our evil actions. Consider this passage that has much to say on this subject:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 NASB Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, (2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. (5) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (6) And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (8) Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; (9) that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, (10) and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. (11) For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, (12) in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
People will one day follow the Antichrist not out of ignorance (for the book of Revelation makes it clear that God will reveal Himself quite openly in the last days), but out of a love of their wickedness... and because of this they will be deluded, and will reject God and receive the Antichrist.

The mystery of lawlessness is already at work... people want to justify their sin, and avoid it's consequence. Therefore many reject the truth and embrace a lie that tells them they can continue doing what is wrong without consequence... then they get all upset if God chastises them for their sin, seeking to bring them to Himself. Instead, God's chastisement drives them further away because they have loved their sin, and not the truth of God's absolute holiness and goodness.

Yes, God is love, that is part of His goodness, but, even more than that, God is holy, holy, holy. He is perfectly, unrelentingly good. God's morality is perfectly flawless, therefore He cannot just wink at sin, for it is utterly abhorrent to Him. We must receive Christ in order to become new creatures from the inside out, cleansing us from our sins and allowing God to look at us as covered by Christ's blood and righteousness, not our own.

How God deals with those who have never had the gospel clearly presented... this is a mystery that God has not chosen to clearly reveal to us in Scripture. I simply trust that God is good and merciful, yet also just. No one will be able to say they were judged unfairly, and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Everyone saved will be saved by the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though. And everyone who will be saved that has heard the gospel clearly presented will be saved by their faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ, and no one that will be saved will reject the gospel all the way through death.

Finally, I must reiterate that I trust fully in God's goodness, holiness, justice, mercy, love, and grace... there is no other foundation than those attributes revealed through Jesus Christ.
 
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