The Onus is not On Us!

WordSword · Aug 28, 2019

The believer’s part is to “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25), which ability is given by God as He unceasingly “works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). Thus one cannot retain redemption any more than one can save one’s soul! Sustainment of redemption attributed to self-reliance in any form has in my estimation the same implication (though unknowingly) as self-attributed salvation; for where would the difference between the two be found?

In all openness, what credit is there—anywhere—that a believer would desire to claim attribution of anything belonging to God? Knowingly, nowhere; but wrongfulness committed in ignorance is yet evidence of a misapprehension in understanding. It’s God who saves a soul, and it’s He who “makes him stand” (Rom 14:4).

Thankfully our Father knows the weaknesses in our understanding, and progressively teaches us all that He desires us to comprehend (Pro 28:5; 2Ti 2:7). If those professing Christianity eventually decide to permanently discontinue it, there is a manifestation of two things: the profession was not genuine; the soul was never reborn.

What is within those reborn which contains the “life” of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4) and is what the Father, through His Holy Spirit “works in you” (Phl 2:13)?—the new nature; which is “after the image of Him (Christ) who created him (it)” (Col 3:10). If we profess to be in Christ, what is the most evident manifestation of this rebirth?—continuing in all that is involved (obedience) unto the cessation of one’s life (Mat 24:13; Mar 13:13). Only a permanent Christian walk best demonstrates the redeemed life; for those who are not reborn will unavoidably discontinue a profession and walk of the Christian life.

How unsettling it is in seeking restful assurance towards joy and sustaining endurance, when there is not that knowledge of the permanency of faith and salvation, wherein there is no surer encouragement within the “Word of Truth,” concerning the “hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast” (Heb 6:19).
NC

Aussie Pete · Aug 28, 2019

WordSword said:
The believer’s part is to “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25), which ability is given by God as He unceasingly “works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). Thus one cannot retain redemption any more than one can save one’s soul! Sustainment of redemption attributed to self-reliance in any form has in my estimation the same implication (though unknowingly) as self-attributed salvation; for where would the difference between the two be found?

In all openness, what credit is there—anywhere—that a believer would desire to claim attribution of anything belonging to God? Knowingly, nowhere; but wrongfulness committed in ignorance is yet evidence of a misapprehension in understanding. It’s God who saves a soul, and it’s He who “makes him stand” (Rom 14:4).

Thankfully our Father knows the weaknesses in our understanding, and progressively teaches us all that He desires us to comprehend (Pro 28:5; 2Ti 2:7). If those professing Christianity eventually decide to permanently discontinue it, there is a manifestation of two things: the profession was not genuine; the soul was never reborn.

What is within those reborn which contains the “life” of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4) and is what the Father, through His Holy Spirit “works in you” (Phl 2:13)?—the new nature; which is “after the image of Him (Christ) who created him (it)” (Col 3:10). If we profess to be in Christ, what is the most evident manifestation of this rebirth?—continuing in all that is involved (obedience) unto the cessation of one’s life (Mat 24:13; Mar 13:13). Only a permanent Christian walk best demonstrates the redeemed life; for those who are not reborn will unavoidably discontinue a profession and walk of the Christian life.

How unsettling it is in seeking restful assurance towards joy and sustaining endurance, when there is not that knowledge of the permanency of faith and salvation, wherein there is no surer encouragement within the “Word of Truth,” concerning the “hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast” (Heb 6:19).
NC

Absolutely true. The great weakness of the Church is lack of knowledge of Christ as our life. When it finally dawned on me, it was as life-changing as my initial conversion. When I was born again, i was delivered from the penalty and guilt of sin instantly. I received Christ and so I had everything that is in Him. It was about 40 years later that it dawned on me that I did not have to do anything to improve my Christian life. The difference is stunning. I spent decades looking for a breakthrough. It came when I realised that I don't need a breakthrough. Galatians 2:20 is an accomplished fact. it becomes real in our experience when we know that it applies to us as individuals. Now I draw on the Life of Christ for everything to do with life. Forgiveness of sin relieves me of the burden of sin. The cross relieves me of the burden of me.

renniks · Aug 28, 2019

WordSword said:
that a believer would desire to claim attribution of anything belonging to God? Knowingly, nowhere; but wrongfulness committed in ignorance is yet evidence of a misapprehension in understanding. It’s God who saves a soul, and it’s He who “makes him stand” (Rom 14:4).

This doesn't negate our responsibility to continue in the faith, to lean on God instead of our own understanding... Many can and do fall away because they don't do this.

sdowney717 · Aug 29, 2019

WordSword said:
The believer’s part is to “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25), which ability is given by God as He unceasingly “works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). Thus one cannot retain redemption any more than one can save one’s soul! Sustainment of redemption attributed to self-reliance in any form has in my estimation the same implication (though unknowingly) as self-attributed salvation; for where would the difference between the two be found?

In all openness, what credit is there—anywhere—that a believer would desire to claim attribution of anything belonging to God? Knowingly, nowhere; but wrongfulness committed in ignorance is yet evidence of a misapprehension in understanding. It’s God who saves a soul, and it’s He who “makes him stand” (Rom 14:4).

Thankfully our Father knows the weaknesses in our understanding, and progressively teaches us all that He desires us to comprehend (Pro 28:5; 2Ti 2:7). If those professing Christianity eventually decide to permanently discontinue it, there is a manifestation of two things: the profession was not genuine; the soul was never reborn.

What is within those reborn which contains the “life” of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4) and is what the Father, through His Holy Spirit “works in you” (Phl 2:13)?—the new nature; which is “after the image of Him (Christ) who created him (it)” (Col 3:10). If we profess to be in Christ, what is the most evident manifestation of this rebirth?—continuing in all that is involved (obedience) unto the cessation of one’s life (Mat 24:13; Mar 13:13). Only a permanent Christian walk best demonstrates the redeemed life; for those who are not reborn will unavoidably discontinue a profession and walk of the Christian life.

How unsettling it is in seeking restful assurance towards joy and sustaining endurance, when there is not that knowledge of the permanency of faith and salvation, wherein there is no surer encouragement within the “Word of Truth,” concerning the “hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast” (Heb 6:19).
NC

And not all have the same amount of faith, but all saved have the faith that saves come from Him.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And the faith comes through Him, that would include everything about us, who we are, we are because of Christ Jesus. I take that to mean all things about us are of God.

Acts 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Aussie Pete · Aug 29, 2019

sdowney717 said:
And not all have the same amount of faith, but all saved have the faith that saves come from Him.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And the faith comes through Him, that would include everything about us, who we are, we are because of Christ Jesus. I take that to mean all things about us are of God.

Acts 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

A few years ago, God asked me a question. He said, "How were you saved?" I replied, "by grace". He said, "What saves you now?". I said, "grace". He said, "And what will save you tomorrow?" Yep, for sure - grace.

sdowney717 · Aug 29, 2019

renniks said:
This doesn't negate our responsibility to continue in the faith, to lean on God instead of our own understanding... Many can and do fall away because they don't do this.

Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Aussie Pete said:
A few years ago, God asked me a question. He said, "How were you saved?" I replied, "by grace". He said, "What saves you now?". I said, "grace". He said, "And what will save you tomorrow?" Yep, for sure - grace.

Imagine standing before God on judgement day and Almighty Omnipotent God, (your Heavenly Father, but only if you are born of God) asks you, 'Why should I let you into My Heaven?'

What would you say?

WordSword · Aug 29, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
Absolutely true. The great weakness of the Church is lack of knowledge of Christ as our life.

Excellent reply! What you've shared is what all believers eventually realize, that there's nothing in our old nature and from self that requires improvement (nor can there be -
Rom 8:7). As you've we explained, it's a matter of attempting to address the old you (flesh; sin nature) instead of the new you in and after the Lord Jesus. We can only continue to receive from the Lord Jesus via the Holy Spirit using the new nature and nothing personally from the believer. It's been said that when Jesus "comes in" (Rev 3:20) through faith, He doesn't use anything he finds in us but all is from Himself.

An ongoing confusion is to mistakenly think we owe Him and the Father and therefore must do our part to return payment somehow, which is often the motivation and intention of our obedience to Their Word, but obedience is a response from God's "work in you" (Phl 2:13), not an ongoing impossible debt! Such freedom in Christ!

Thanks for the comments and God bless!

WordSword · Aug 29, 2019

renniks said:
This doesn't negate our responsibility to continue in the faith, to lean on God instead of our own understanding... Many can and do fall away because they don't do this.

You make a point which is a normally accepted concept, and is okay to understand why, but our place in the faith is dependent upon Him (not self), who is its Author and Finisher, which results as a joy to us knowing He is responsible for our permanency in the faith. If we are truly in Christ it's because of Him. If one seemingly leaves Christ (seemingly, because was never in Him) it's because He was never there for the keeping, due to a false profession of faith.

Appreciate your input and God bless!

WordSword · Aug 29, 2019

sdowney717 said:
And not all have the same amount of faith, but all saved have the faith that saves come from Him.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And the faith comes through Him, that would include everything about us, who we are, we are because of Christ Jesus. I take that to mean all things about us are of God.

Very true and a significant point. The strength of faith varies between all believers, for various uses of ourselves by God. Thankfully this never interferes or hinders our salvation in Christ, nor the continuing growth of our faith.

Thanks for the reply, and God bless!

Aussie Pete · Aug 29, 2019

WordSword said:
Excellent reply! What you've shared is what all believers eventually realize, that there's nothing in our old nature and from self that requires improvement (nor can there be -
Rom 8:7). As you've we explained, it's a matter of attempting to address the old you (flesh; sin nature) instead of the new you in and after the Lord Jesus. We can only continue to receive from the Lord Jesus via the Holy Spirit using the new nature and nothing personally from the believer. It's been said that when Jesus "comes in" (Rev 3:20) through faith, He doesn't use anything he finds in us but all is from Himself.

An ongoing confusion is to mistakenly think we owe Him and the Father and therefore must do our part to return payment somehow, which is often the motivation and intention of our obedience to Their Word, but obedience is a response from God's "work in you" (Phl 2:13), not an ongoing impossible debt! Such freedom in Christ!

Thanks for the comments and God bless!

“God will not give me humility, or patience, or holiness, or love as separate investments of His grace. He has given only one gift to meet our need, His Son Christ Jesus.” - Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Life

Another analogy is that God is not like a chemist dispensing "medication" to meet our need. All that we need is found in Christ.

WordSword · Aug 29, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
“God will not give me humility, or patience, or holiness, or love as separate investments of His grace. He has given only one gift to meet our need, His Son Christ Jesus.” - Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Life

Another analogy is that God is not like a chemist dispensing "medication" to meet our need. All that we need is found in Christ.

Amen, "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (2Pe 1:3). There's never anything new received, and all is a matter of learning to walk in all that we have and are in Christ!

renniks · Aug 29, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Imagine standing before God on judgement day and Almighty Omnipotent God, (your Heavenly Father, but only if you are born of God) asks you, 'Why should I let you into My Heaven?'

What would you say?

Because I continually fall back on God's grace... It's not me doing anything to save myself, but it still involves a choice to continue relying on him. If not, why read your Bible? Why pray? Why do anything to cultivate your faith if God is just going to irresistibly do it for you?

sdowney717 · Aug 29, 2019

renniks said:
Because I continually fall back on God's grace... It's not me doing anything to save myself, but it still involves a choice to continue relying on him. If not, why read your Bible? Why pray? Why do anything to cultivate your faith if God is just going to irresistibly do it for you?

Of course we have that choice, it is just that there is no other choice we can make!
John 6, Peter said they had no where else to go. v68, v69

Jesus told us why people leave off following Him in v65,

Either you have been granted to come to Christ,
OR you have not been granted to know Christ.
This is by the will of the Father, the Almighty Omnipotent God who has taken His great power and reigned, for each and every single person.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

sdowney717 · Aug 29, 2019

Proverbs 29:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

1 He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck,
Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Their is a limit to resisting the Holy Spirit in scripture, then comes a judgement.

renniks · Aug 29, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Of course we have that choice, it is just that there is no other choice we can make!

This is just false and I already addressed that passage multiple times.

Aussie Pete · Aug 29, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Imagine standing before God on judgement day and Almighty Omnipotent God, (your Heavenly Father, but only if you are born of God) asks you, 'Why should I let you into My Heaven?'

What would you say?

A good part of the reason for the dispute over "once saved, always saved" is the lack of understanding of what "salvation" means. There are two "salvations" Because of the debasement of the meaning of salvation, I often use "deliverance" instead. The first salvation is when an individual is born again. That is instantaneous, requires simple faith, repentance and acceptance of the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross. The second "salvation" is the ongoing deliverance from sin, Satan, self and the influence of the world. The second work of God requires us to lay down our lives, take up our cross and follow Lord Jesus. Watchman Nee's "Salvation of the Soul" is an excellent read on this much misunderstood subject. It is possible for obviously born again Christians to sink into a state where they are almost unrecognisable. I've been there. It's no fun. What such people miss out on is placement in God's Kingdom. If we have committed ourselves wholly to Christ (easy to say, hard to do) He will bring us through whatever pit we have fallen into, even if it takes years. The saddest thing for a Christian is to have one foot in the world and self and the other in God's kingdom. We need to seek diligently for the second deliverance. It is not automatic.

WordSword · Aug 30, 2019

Aussie Pete said:
We need to seek diligently for the second deliverance. It is not automatic.

Amen! We have complete and eternal deliverance (redemption) from the "condemnation" of our sin nature, or "old man" (Rom 8:1), but now continually need deliverance in our walk (lifestyle) from its attempts of "dominion" (6:14). As it has been well said, "The lost need saved; and the saved need delivered!"

Appreciate your input and God bless!

The Onus is not On Us!

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