Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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jgr

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"Ye do err not knowing the scriptures". (Mt. 22:29) Zechariah says that only a third of the nation is delivered and saved. It is they who call upon the Messiah and are saved. This is why Paul says that all of Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:26) and yet only a remnant. (Rom. 9:27)

Do you deny that dispensationalism declares that Zechariah 12:10 is the salvation of the entire nation of Israel?

And that said salvation occurs before 2/3 are cut off in Zechariah 13:8?

And that said salvation includes Judas, Caiaphas, et al?
 
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Do you deny that dispensationalism declares that Zechariah 12:10 is the salvation of the entire nation of Israel?

And that said salvation occurs before 2/3 are cut off in Zechariah 13:8?

And that said salvation includes Judas, Caiaphas, et al?


According to Dispensationalism, the events of Zechariah 12-14 have not yet taken place except the crucifixion of our Lord as alluded to in Zechariah 13:7. The rest is yet to come.
 
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BABerean2

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Where do we go with Him if not back to Heaven?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

.
 
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2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

.


The cited passages of 1 Thessalonians 4 depict the followers of Christ being caught up from the earth to meet Him. The New heavens, new earth, and New Jerusalem come to us.
 
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jgr

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According to Dispensationalism, the events of Zechariah 12-14 have not yet taken place except the crucifixion of our Lord as alluded to in Zechariah 13:7. The rest is yet to come.
Sure. But Zechariah 12 precedes Zechariah 13. It is in Zechariah 12 that Israel is saved. It is in Zechariah 13 that 2/3 are cut off and die.

So the 2/3 are saved before they are cut off and die.

And Zechariah 12:10 unquestionably includes Judas, Caiaphas, et al.
 
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Sure. But Zechariah 12 precedes Zechariah 13. It is in Zechariah 12 that Israel is saved. It is in Zechariah 13 that 2/3 are cut off and die.

So the 2/3 are saved before they are cut off and die.

And Zechariah 12:10 unquestionably includes Judas, Caiaphas, et al.


Paul did not think that chapter 12 of Zechariah had been fulfilled in its entirety. Israel, as a nation and people had not been saved in his day, which is why he spoke of the salvation of the nation as yet to come (Rom. 11:26) and it is due to two thirds being cut off that he states only a remnant of the nation is saved (Rom. 9:27)

While there is no doubt a general chronology to prophecy, and all of scripture for that matter, sometimes, before pressing forward, the scriptures may jump backward to explain certain events in greater detail or things to take place before that which it was initially speaking of.

Zechariah 12 and part of 13 is about the salvation of the Jews, but verse 7 of 13 explains that before they receive their Deliverer, they reject Him at first and put Him to death. Going back to Zechariah 12, verses 10 through 14 speak of the terrible remorse they will feel for having rejected Him to the point of killing Him the first time.

But before Israel finally calls upon the name of Jesus, they are destined to undergo a purge during which two-thirds of them will die, leaving only a third part that is saved as the ending verses of chapter 13 of Zechariah explain, hence the reason why Paul says only a remnant of the nation will be saved. Zechariah chapter 14 shifts back to their deliverance and the reign of Christ over them.

These three chapters are not the only case in which the scriptures have been known to do this.
 
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BABerean2

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The cited passages of 1 Thessalonians 4 depict the followers of Christ being caught up from the earth to meet Him. The New heavens, new earth, and New Jerusalem come to us.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ "descends" from heaven in the passage above.

What does the word "descend" mean?


There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.


.
 
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keras

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The falling away takes place first and then the Anti-Christ is revealed. After a certain number of God's people are taken to a place of refuge, Revelation chapter 12 does go on to say that Satan, after failing to destroy those whom God takes to that undisclosed place of refuge, goes on to attack the rest of God's people who are not taken to this place of safety. Revelation chapter 13 tells us who will be the instrument of that great persecution and that they who refuse to worship the Beast or take his mark will be killed. Revelation 20:4 tells us the manner in which all who refuse to worship the Anti-Christ will die.

How is there any persecution of Christians if no one is coming to Christ during the tribulation and those already in the faith beforehand are hidden away from the Anti-Christ?
Yes, the 'falling away' does happen before the Anti-Christ comes to power. It will happen to many Christians; who today are gripping onto the false 'rapture to heaven' belief.
As the terrible disaster of the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of fiery wrath, crashes around them and they remain rooted to the earth, many, sadly; will renounce God, because He won't do what they fondly imagined He would.

My contention, backed by scripture; that very few people will become Christian during the reign of the AC; stands. Any that do will be killed. A fairly strong disincentive! Those who do and are killed, will come back to life at Jesus' Return and reign with Him. Revelation 20:4

The Christians that the AC will chase after are the ones left in the holy Land, as per Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2 and Daniel 11:32a
 
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claninja

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In order to prove that my argument is one from ignorance, the following passages of scripture could not exist: Jeremiah 30:11, the entire chapter of Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:15, Zechariah 12-14, and Malachi 3:6.

Only then would I have no basis for claiming that Romans chapter 11 implies eventual land restoration or the restoration of any earthly blessings pertaining to Israel upon their repentance. Even Romans chapter 11 has its foundation upon Old Testament scriptures. If that were not so, the chapter as we know it would not exist.

Again, the disciples needed their minds to be opened in order to understand OT scripture (luke 24:45). That's because the OT prophets received their revelations in visions, dreams, and riddles (numbers 12:6-8, Hosea 12:10).

So in order to substantiate that "your" interpretation of the OT is correct, you need to back it up with clear and explicit NT scripture.

Romans 11 makes no explicit or clear mention of land restoration, that is your personal interpretation. you have yet to provide even 1 clear and explicit NT scripture that promotes land restoration. Thus anyone reading through our dialogue can see that you use the "argument from ignorance" fallacy in informal logic. If you could provide even 1 NT scripture that clearly and specifically mentions land restoration (not your interpretation) you would have done so by now
.

Permanent means permanent and such declarations are not dependent upon a Covenant that was only meant to be temporal in the first place.

Then it appears you have no idea what a covenant is. If a covenant ends, then so do the agreements on both sides.

Most of the prophecies I cited were given under the Old Covenant and still have not yet come to pass which means their fulfillment is yet to come under the New Covenant.

The old covenant was a shadow of Christ. He is the fulfillment of the old covenant. The old covenant is obsolete.

But due to their unbelief, the blessings promised to them were taken away from them and withheld, but not lost to them. They will receive them again when they repent.

NT scripture to support this claim?



There was only one promise made by God that was undeniably conditional and that was for a man to remain perpetually on the throne of David. That was only on the condition that Israel did not turn away from God, but because of their persistent rebellion, the house of David was bereft of the throne and will continue to remain without a king until the return of our Lord.

What did David speak about knowing God would place a descendant on his throne?

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.



We really do not know what version of the Old Testament scriptures Jesus and the Apostles really quoted from but what version they did cite from was consistent with the original. Otherwise, they would not have cited from it.

We actually do. the Septuagint is commonly quoted by the apostles. We know this because the septuagint matches the greek translations of the NT quotes more so than the masoretic text does.

As for the Greek word "Spermati", it is not found in Strong's Concordance. The word that comes closest to this is called "Sperma" and the definition thereof is not strictly applied to the singular or plural but can be applied either way.

Spermati is singular. As we can see. Paul uses "spermati" in regards to Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

In order for a prophecy or promise to be fulfilled, the fulfillment must match what was promised and foretold. When that day comes, there will be no question about it.

So christ was wrong about John the baptist being the elijah to come?

Matthew 11:13-14 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

Similar expressions but applied to different subject matter. One is focused on the restoration of Israel. The other pertains to the spreading of the Gospel throughout the world.

The gospel going to the world and the restoration of Israel are one in the same.

And in their homeland as the cited passage from Jeremiah implies.

"implies" does not equal meaning. "implies" is personal interpretation.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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BABerean2 said:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Contenders Edge said:
The cited passages of 1 Thessalonians 4 depict the followers of Christ being caught up from the earth to meet Him. The New heavens, new earth, and New Jerusalem come to us.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christ "descends" from heaven in the passage above. What does the word "descend" mean? There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
Letsa go to the Greek:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2597. katabaino from 2596 and the base of 939;
to descend (literally or figuratively):--come (get, go, step) down, fall (down).
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):
939. basis bas'-ece from baino (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2597: To go down, come down, either from the sky or from higher land, descend. From kata and the base of basis; to descend.

1 Thess 4:16
That Himself, the Lord, in a calling-forth in Voice of Chief-Messenger and in trumpet of God, shall be descending/down-stepping<2597> from heaven, and the dead-ones/nekroi <3498> in Christ shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> first,

16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον,

1 exact Greek match

Romans 10:7
or, 'Who shall descend/down-step<2597> to the Abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to be leading up<321>.

7 ἤ, τίς καταβήσεται εἰς τὴν ἄβυσσον; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναγαγεῖν.

321. anago an-ag'-o from 303 and 71;
to lead up; by extension to bring out; specially, to sail away:--bring (again, forth, up again), depart, launch (forth), lead (up), loose, offer, sail, set forth, take up
====================================
The Abyss is an interesting study:
Please visit my "ABYSS" thread......

What about the Abyss in Revelation?

Here are all the verses in Revelation that mentions the "abyss". [2 other places mention the abyss].
What kind of chronological order should these verses be put in and what period of time elapses between events.

For example, in Revelation 11 during the 2 witnesses preaching the Gospel, the beast hasn't yet come out of the abyss so I would think this should be first in order?
Just trying to figure this out. Any thoughts on this?
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
G2597

κατάβα — 1x καταβαίνει — 2x καταβαίνειν — 1x καταβαινέτω — 1x καταβαῖνον — 7x καταβαίνοντα — 3x καταβαίνοντας — 1x καταβαίνοντες — 1x καταβαίνοντος — 1x καταβαινόντων — 2x καταβαίνουσα — 1x καταβαίνουσαν — 3x καταβαίνων — 2x καταβὰν — 1x καταβάντες — 2x Καταβάντι — 1xmκαταβὰς — 8x καταβάς — 3x καταβάτω — 4x καταβέβηκα — 2x καταβεβηκότες — 1x καταβῇ — 2x κατάβηθι — 4x καταβῆναι — 2x
καταβήσεται — 2x
κατέβαινεν — 3x κατέβη — 13x κατέβην — 1x κατέβησαν — 5x

STRONGS NT 2597: καταβαίνω
καταβαίνω; imperfect 3 person plural κατέβαινον; future καταβήσομαι; 2 aorist κατέβην, imperative κατάβηθι (Matthew 27:40; Luke 19:5; John 4:49; Acts 10:20) and κατάβα (Mark 15:30 (R G (where L T Tr WH participle καταβάς)), see ἀναβαίνω); perfect καταβέβηκα; (from Homer on); the Sept. for יָרַד; to go down, come down, descend;
1. of persons;
a. properly: absolutely, the place from which one has come down being evident from the context, καταβάς ἔστη, Luke 6:17 (cf. Luke 6:12); Luke 17:31 (followed here by an infinitive, so Matthew 24:17); Luke 19:5; John 5:7; Acts 20:10;

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
16. For the Lord Himself] “In His personal august presence” (Ellicott). Comp. 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 3:16, for this kind of emphasis; also Ch. 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “God Himself:” in each case we feel the majesty with which God (or “the Lord”) rises above all human doings and desires.

with a shout] Strictly, word of command, or signal,—the shout with which the general gives the order to his troops, or the captain to his crew. Such “command” might be given either by voice,—his own or another’s; or through a trumpet: both are added here, to complete the Impressive picture,—With the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

We must not look for literal exactness where things are depicted beyond the reach of sense. These three may form but one idea, that of “the voice of the Son of God,” by which the dead will be called forth (John 5:28), Christ’s “command” being expressed by an “archangel’s voice,” and that again constituting the “trumpet of God.” Christ predicted His return attended by angels (Matthew 24:31; Matthew 25:31; comp. 2 Thessalonians 1:7); and the Divine voice of the Book of Revelation is constantly uttered by an “angel,” or “mighty angel” (Revelation 5:2; Revelation 7:2; &c.). In the same Book voice and trumpet are identified, where St John describing the glorified Son of Man says, “I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet talking with me” (Revelation 1:10; Revelation 1:12; Revelation 4:1). This verse, like the above passages of the Apocalypse, echoes the words of Christ in Matthew 24:31 : “He shall send forth His angels with a trumpet of great voice.” In 1 Corinthians 15:52 the whole is described in one word: “The-trumpet-shall-sound, and the dead shall be raised.”

This is the military trumpet, like “word of command” above, by which the Lord of Hosts musters and marshals His array. Comp. ch. 1 Thessalonians 5:8, with its “breastplate” and “helmet;” see note. “As a Commander rouses his sleeping soldiers, so the Lord calls up His dead, and bids them shake off the fetters of the grave and rise anew to waking life” (Hofmann).

St Paul does not write “the Archangel,” as though pointing to some known Angelic Chief who is to blow this trumpet; his words are, with an archangel’s voice, indicating the majesty and power of the heavenly summons. This is the earliest example of the title archangel. In Judges 9 we read of “Michael the archangel”—an expression probably based on Daniel 12:1, “Michael the great prince” (LXX: “the great angel;” comp. Revelation 12:7, where “Michael and his angels” are arrayed against “the Dragon and his angels”). Of equal rank with Michael is Gabriel, the angel of comfort and good tidings in Daniel 8:16; Daniel 9:21, and Luke 1:19; Luke 1:26. The military style of this passage suits rather the character of Michael. Amongst the seven chief angels recognised at this time in Jewish teaching, Raphael stood nearest to the two that appear in the New Testament (Tob 12:15). St Paul probably ranged the Archangels amongst the Principalities (Greek Archai) to which he refers in Romans 8:38 (angels and principalities), Ephesians 1:21; Ephesians 3:10, Colossians 1:6; Colossians 2:10; Colossians 2:15. See the Article on Angels in Smith’s Dictionary of Christian Antiquities.

the Lord Himself, &c.… will descend from heaven. See note on ch. 1 Thessalonians 1:10. These words close the sentence, the accompaniments of the descent being first described, and then the descent itself, with solemn brevity and an effect of peculiar grandeur.

and the dead in Christ] This gives us the key to the Apostle’s meaning throughout. Being “in Christ,” having died as they lived in Him, nothing can part them from Him, “neither death nor life” (Romans 8:38). And when He returns in bodily presence, their bodies must rise to meet Him and do Him homage.

shall rise first] Not before the other dead, as though theirs were a select and separate resurrection (comp. John 5:28-29); the antithesis is plainly given in the next verse,—“first,” i.e. before the living saints: “we shall not take precedence of them, but rather they of us.”
 
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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ "descends" from heaven in the passage above.

What does the word "descend" mean?


There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.


.


But we are "caught up" to meet Him in the air. That means that when He descends from Heaven, we ascend to meet Him.
 
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Yes, the 'falling away' does happen before the Anti-Christ comes to power. It will happen to many Christians; who today are gripping onto the false 'rapture to heaven' belief.
As the terrible disaster of the Sixth Seal Lord's Day of fiery wrath, crashes around them and they remain rooted to the earth, many, sadly; will renounce God, because He won't do what they fondly imagined He would.

My contention, backed by scripture; that very few people will become Christian during the reign of the AC; stands. Any that do will be killed. A fairly strong disincentive! Those who do and are killed, will come back to life at Jesus' Return and reign with Him. Revelation 20:4

The Christians that the AC will chase after are the ones left in the holy Land, as per Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2 and Daniel 11:32a


No, they will not fall away. They will just think that they were wrong about the timing of the rapture. There are three camps within the "Rapture camp": Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib. They who have held on to the doctrine of the pre-trib and mid trib will just assume that the post tribs had it right and they had it wrong.
 
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Again, the disciples needed their minds to be opened in order to understand OT scripture (luke 24:45). That's because the OT prophets received their revelations in visions, dreams, and riddles (numbers 12:6-8, Hosea 12:10).


Their minds were opened when Christ explained what the OT scriptures said concerning Him. He explained to them the meaning of the visions and the riddles which I have trusted the Word of God to do.



So in order to substantiate that "your" interpretation of the OT is correct, you need to back it up with clear and explicit NT scripture.

Romans 11 makes no explicit or clear mention of land restoration, that is your personal interpretation. you have yet to provide even 1 clear and explicit NT scripture that promotes land restoration. Thus anyone reading through our dialogue can see that you use the "argument from ignorance" fallacy in informal logic. If you could provide even 1 NT scripture that clearly and specifically mentions land restoration (not your interpretation) you would have done so by now
.


Here is some more scriptures that back up my claim: God never changes (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) and is faithful in keeping His promises (Heb. 10:23)

I have searched the scriptures from beginning to end regarding any doctrine or subject that they address and what I find is a consistency regarding each from beginning to end which testifies to the consistent nature of God in every matter. If God never changes, then what He has said pertaining to the people of Israel has not changed.

The Apostle Paul declared that "if their fall be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness...For if by the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Rom. 11:13, 15)

In other words, if God used the casting away of Israel to draw the world to Himself, how much more so when He receives them back again? But if we really want to know how the world benefits from the reconciling of Israel to God more so than not, we need to understand what kind of a nation God wanted the Israelites to be and still wants them to be and the only way to find that out is to go back to the Old Testament because it has much to say about the kind of nation and people that God has desired them to be. Scriptures that give insight into this are Deut. 28:1-14, 30:5-9, Ezek. chapter 37, and Zech. chapter 8 to start out with though more could be added, but they still give insight into what the fulness of Israel of which Paul speaks would be like.

If these and other passages like them are not what Romans chapter 11 rest on, what else could that chapter rest on? Yet the fulness of Israel requires that they be regathered from all the nations to which they were driven.

But if land restoration is out of the equation for Israel, then what else could be taken out of the equation for the rest of us? If God is not faithful in fulfilling even the least of all promises made, how can He still be called "faithful" and "unchanging?"

As for further indication of land restoration, Revelation chapters 7:4-8, 11, 12, 14:1-5 and 19 are clear indicators because the people of Israel have more central role in the book of Revelation than throughout the rest of the New Testament. I did not want to go into those chapters because I know that they open up a host of other topics that are not relevant to this thread.



Then it appears you have no idea what a covenant is. If a covenant ends, then so do the agreements on both sides.


It appears you have no idea what "forever" means. When God has decreed anything to be everlasting, no matter what covenant it was declared, it will be forever, which means that which is decreed to be forever was carried over into the New Covenant. If not, then God would be a liar.


The old covenant was a shadow of Christ. He is the fulfillment of the old covenant. The old covenant is obsolete.


And what was the Old Covenant founded on? The law of ordinances that had to be kept in order to retain favor with God, animal sacrifices that only covered sins and did not really take them away. A veil in the temple that placed separation between God and sinful man. A class of priests who served as intercessors between God and man yet they themselves were under sin.

It was these things that were fulfilled and replaced by Christ whose sacrifice did for us what the continual animal sacrifices could not, who serves as our High Priest instead of corruptible men and makes priests of us who call on His name for forgiveness of sins and receive Him as our Lord, who has taken away that separating veil between us and God in order that we can stand before Him.

And no longer do we obey the law to gain favor with God, but under the law of grace in Christ, we obey it out of our love for Him and gratitude for His grace and mercy.

That was what was fulfilled by Christ at the cross and validated by His resurrection. But there are still things to come written in both the Old and the New Testament that did not come to pass before Christ, nor in the days the Church was founded and established, nor have yet come to pass in our day.

But to do a study on all that has come to pass and is yet to come would go beyond the topic of this thread, and due to space limitations, would be far too extensive for this forum.


NT scripture to support this claim?


Romans 11:13, 15


What did David speak about knowing God would place a descendant on his throne?

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.


David knew that he would have a descendant, which is Christ, to be on his throne forever, but in order for a man to remain on the throne consecutively between his generation and Christ, the people of Israel had to continue walking closely and faithfully with their Maker, but because they did not, they presently have no king until Christ returns to reign upon the earth.


the Septuagint is commonly quoted by the apostles. We know this because the septuagint matches the greek translations of the NT quotes more so than the masoretic text does.


Granted that when they were speaking to Gentile audiences, it would have made sense for them to cite the Septuagint, but when speaking to a Hebrew audience, it would not have made sense for them to cite from a Greek text but would have cited from a Hebrew text because the Jews did not read the scriptures in Greek but only Hebrew.


Spermati is singular. As we can see. Paul uses "spermati" in regards to Christ.


I do not know where you are finding "Spermati." I have only found "Sperma" which can be applied in either the singular or plural, but in the case of Galatians 3:16, it is applied in the singular.


So christ was wrong about John the baptist being the elijah to come?


Christ never said that John was Elijah in the literal sense. Even John himself denied this. Jesus made it clear that John the Baptist was only a "figurative" Elijah type.


The gospel going to the world and the restoration of Israel are one in the same.


No they are not the same, but the full restoration of Israel is tied to them finally accepting the Gospel they once rejected.


"implies" does not equal meaning. "implies" is personal interpretation


But he never said that they would be sown among the nations.
 
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claninja

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There are souls being rescued from damnation and the darkness of this present world in every nation but the nations of the world do not believe themselves to be conquered by anything much less Christ.


If that were the case, they would all be in submission to Christ, but most persist in rejecting the Gospel and His followers are persecuted throughout much of the world. At present, our duty is to call and persuade as many souls to Christ as we can and to be the best representatives that we can be for Him, but His conquering power will not be realized by the world until He enforces it.


The day that Christ enforces His Lordship will bring judgment upon the wicked and deliverance for His people. In this present age, men have the choice to confess Christ as Lord willingly. In the day that He does return, those who have not confessed Him as Lord willingly will be forced to.

I'm a little confused, so you don't believe Jesus is reigning yet?

I suppose this would include Preterism as much as any other doctrine. For any verses used to build a case for any doctrine to be non apocalyptic or without debate is an impossibility because there will always be someone to challenge any doctrine formed no matter how consistent with scripture it may be.

As with all theological beliefs.

There is more of what Paul said regarding the witness of God than in just the one passage you cite. As for your definition of Oikumene, Strong’s definition does not entirely match yours His definition does not necessarily regard the lands outside the Roman empire as being of no account.

From strongs:

properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

And yet that generation has passed away without all things being fulfilled as far as history is concerned unless the possibility of even a few members of that generation remaining until the return of our Lord is considered. (Jn. 21:22-23)

But Jesus stated this generation would not pass away until all these things to place.

The astronomical signs preceding Christ’s return have already been declared. Aside from what scripture has declared, we should not be searching the heavens for signs of forthcoming events. Such is forbidden by scripture. Any signs needed will come to us, and there is no contextual evidence that the signs preceding the return of our Lord are symbolic. They are presented as being literal. The signs in the heavens of which the scriptures speak have nothing to do with astrology. Astrology attempts to chart the positioning of existing heavenly bodies (i.e. stars and planets) to predict forthcoming events, but the signs in the heavens of which the scriptures speak are not a product of nature. They are supernatural phenomena which the occultic practice of astrology is incapable of anticipating.

So if the sun and moon literally stop giving its light, and the stars then literally start to fall from heaven, it should not be taken as signs of Christ's return because as you say, searching the skies for signs of forthcoming events is forbidden, right?

Israel was punished for its rejection of its King, but does not qualify as the second coming of Christ because Christ did not descend from Heaven in that day. When He does, He will bring judgment to the entire world and not just one nation or people and not only will He bring judgment, but He will deliver the righteous and will bring His Kingdom to the earth.

So you don't believe the vineyard owner came to destroy the wicked tenants?

matthew 21:40-41 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard returns, what will he do to those tenants?”“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.”


But with all twenty eight years taken into account, an increase in the earthquake activity is clearly shown. The interpretation of the data by the USGS is once again based upon a secular presupposition which is not going to lead a secular-minded scientist to compare their data to biblical prophecies.

By simply excluding all of the data and pulling the first year (1990) and the last year (2018), we can see that there was 1 more 8.0, 2 less 7-7.9, 8 more 6-6.9, and 57 more 5-5.9. So by a pure numbers basis and statistical analysis, there were more earthquakes in 2018 then there were in 1990. But it would be an inappropriate conclusion to state that on this basis alone, earthquakes have increased because 1.) the data is only from 1990 to 2018, 2.) improvement in earthquake detecting technology, and 3.) the data between 1990 and 2018 does not show an overall picture of increase in earthquake frequency: from 1990 to 1999, earthquake frequencies decreased, from 1999 to 2009, earthquake frequency increased, from 2010 to 2018 earthquake frequency decreased.



As for the improvement in earthquake detection, this is only pertaining to those so-called earthquakes that no one feels and are of no consequence. .

that is incorrect. The data being used by the USGS was 5.0 and greater magnitude, which can be felt.

Which is why we consult the data that we do have between then and now.

The data we have is from 1990 until 2018. Both the USGS and BSGS state that earthquakes have not increased in a statistically significant manner.

When Jesus foretold that there would be earthquakes in various places around the world, it could only refer to an increase in earthquakes. It would make no sense for Him to foretell things that were already taking place. And earthquakes obviously had already been taking place before He came to earth.


And yet Jesus doesn't actually say there will be an increase in earthquakes. He simply states there would be earthquakes in various places
.
 
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BABerean2

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But we are "caught up" to meet Him in the air. That means that when He descends from Heaven, we ascend to meet Him.

You are correct on the point above.

However, there is nothing in the passage about a return to heaven for 7 years.

The event is described at the end of chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord"
, when He "comes as a thief". (See Revelation 16:15-16.)

This means it is a Second Coming event.

The word "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonian 5:10 prove that chapter 4, and chapter 5, are referring to the same event.


.
 
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I'm a little confused, so you don't believe Jesus is reigning yet?


He currently reigns from Heaven over all things, but not from the earth.
If thousand year reign was in effect, there would be no wars, every dispute would be quickly settled, death and disease would not be nearly as prevalent as they are now, every wrong would be swiftly righted, spiritual wickedness would be non-existent, all people would know the Lord, there would be no tyranny or oppression, the evils and wickedness existent today would be no more, and the this increasingly darkening dying world would be a far better place than it is today.



From strongs:

properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.


I do not know what Strong's you are getting this exact definition from. It is not found in mine.


But Jesus stated this generation would not pass away until all these things to place.


Which is why considering the possibility of a few representatives, like John, being kept alive for that purpose (Jn. 21:22-23) makes the best sense and is the most logical because not all things have come to pass.


So if the sun and moon literally stop giving its light, and the stars then literally start to fall from heaven, it should not be taken as signs of Christ's return because as you say, searching the skies for signs of forthcoming events is forbidden, right?


I did not say that. We are to look only for those things that Christ says that we are to look for as they pertain to His return, but it would be a blasphemy to suggest that such signs are tied to astrology since the Bible forbids astrology.


So you don't believe the vineyard owner came to destroy the wicked tenants?


The wicked tenants were indeed destroyed by the Roman legions but the vineyard owner did not establish His reign in the vineyard at that time. If He had, the course of history would be far different than it has been. His return is when He physically rules as King upon the earth.


By simply excluding all of the data and pulling the first year (1990) and the last year (2018), we can see that there was 1 more 8.0, 2 less 7-7.9, 8 more 6-6.9, and 57 more 5-5.9. So by a pure numbers basis and statistical analysis, there were more earthquakes in 2018 then there were in 1990. But it would be an inappropriate conclusion to state that on this basis alone, earthquakes have increased because 1.) the data is only from 1990 to 2018, 2.) improvement in earthquake detecting technology, and 3.) the data between 1990 and 2018 does not show an overall picture of increase in earthquake frequency: from 1990 to 1999, earthquake frequencies decreased, from 1999 to 2009, earthquake frequency increased, from 2010 to 2018 earthquake frequency decreased.


So, you admit that from a pure numbers and statistical analysis, which is the most honest and accurate approach, there was an increase in earthquakes between 1990 and 2018, yet you refuse to accept that approach because the data spans only twenty-eight years. How many more years would have to be added?

You also claim improvement in earthquake detecting technology, but those technological advancements simply have only revealed seismic activity that goes unnoticed.

And lastly, you claim that twenty-eight years of data compiled together do not show an overall picture of increase in earthquake frequency. There is no doubt there have been fluctuations, but there is a clear increase.

A twenty-eight year span does give a better picture than a ten year span or data in which years are cut out of the equation. But what would give a better picture than twenty-eight years? Fifty? Seventy-five? Perhaps a hundred?


that is incorrect. The data being used by the USGS was 5.0 and greater magnitude, which can be felt.

The data that I was referring to was seismic activity that goes unnoticed which is credited to more advanced earthquake detecting technology and that, of course, was not included in the data. The data pertains to only earthquakes that are felt and that is not what rector scales are credited for revealing. What they do is measure the magnitude of earthquakes felt.

Noticeable earthquakes of various magnitudes are reported, but the magnitudes are what the scales measure.

The data we have is from 1990 until 2018. Both the USGS and BSGS state that earthquakes have not increased in a statistically significant manner.


That is because they are imposing a secular presupposition on their own data instead of comparing their data with Bible prophecy. If they were to objectively compare their data with scripture to determine whether seismic activity was on the rise, their conclusions might be different.


And yet Jesus doesn't actually say there will be an increase in earthquakes. He simply states there would be earthquakes in various places.


If that does not imply an increase in earthquakes, then what was the point of declaring a thing to come that was already known and taking place from time to time? Earthquakes in and of themselves are not sign of the return of our Lord. Earthquakes had been taking place even before that discourse was given. The only logical conclusion is that an escalation of such is implied.
 
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You are correct on the point above.

However, there is nothing in the passage about a return to heaven for 7 years.

The event is described at the end of chapter 4, but the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord"

, when He "comes as a thief". (See Revelation 16:15-16.)
This means it is a Second Coming event.

The word "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonian 5:10 prove that chapter 4, and chapter 5, are referring to the same event.


.


Then what are we doing hovering above the earth between the time we ascend and the time Christ fully descends to the earth if we are not taken to Heaven for a time? Still, we are straying into a topic different from that of this thread.
 
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jgr

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It appears you have no idea what "forever" means. When God has decreed anything to be everlasting, no matter what covenant it was declared, it will be forever, which means that which is decreed to be forever was carried over into the New Covenant. If not, then God would be a liar.

Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Deuteronomy 15:17
Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.

1 Samuel 28:2
And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.
 
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Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Deuteronomy 15:17
Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.

1 Samuel 28:2
And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.



Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and sadist unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your, seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
 
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jgr

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Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and sadist unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your, seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Right. So "for ever" does not mean "eternally" in the Scriptures I cited.

Why is Exodus 32:13 any different?
 
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