Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?

Dave-W said:

Since there was not banking industry circa 1500 bc, I am not sure you could make that distinction.

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On the contrary, if there was no banking industry ca. 1500 BC, we are undeniably correct to make that distinction.

Albion said:

On the contrary, if there was no banking industry ca. 1500 BC, we are undeniably correct to make that distinction.

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And on what basis does non existence when something was originally written mean it is exempt?

Dave L said:

Sometimes being deceived is part of God's punishment.

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"Testing"

Light of the East said:

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

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There is plenty of scripture that addresses the evil heart. IMO, God gave only one law to Adam and Eve and they broke it because they did indeed have "free will" and chose not to obey. This opened humanity to the serpent "deceiver". Jesus Christ of Nazareth has bound the "strong man" forever. This is open to anyone who cares to seek Him out. This is still a "free will" choice. Nothing is blocking anyone from seeking the truth. Merely some people do not care to know.
Blessings

Light of the East said:

Okay. In case you missed it, I am not speaking about temporal punishments, which are both just and corrective of God. It was the punishments of my own sins which drove me to seek Christ when I came to the end of myself.

I am speaking about throwing someone into eternal, never-ending torment without any purpose at all. That is the definition of sadism, not justice. Yet some people here (many people actually) appear to be just fine with this bizarre idea of "justice."

Here is a little something to think about:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

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I know how you feel. The Eternal Torment View had eventually unsettled me to a point where I more closely examined the Scriptures on the matter.

What I discovered is that the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).

Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Verses That Are In Support of Conditional Immortality:

“...he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 HCSB).

“and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a proclaimer of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:5-6 NHEB).

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.” (Deuteronomy 7:10).

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.” (Job 4:8-9).

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” (Psalms 1:6).

“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” (Ezekiel 3:18-20).

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

“Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Romans 1:32).

“And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever” (1 John 2:17).

“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:11-13)

“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;” (2 Peter 2:12).

“What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.” ‭‭(Romans 6:21).

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” (Malachi 4:1-3).

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26)

“When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:” (Psalms 92:7).

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].” (Matthew 10:28).


On the Eternal New Earth, The Saints will Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• Malachi 4:1-3

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
‭‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

• 1 Corinthians 15:25

“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”


...

LotE, you are missing a few points in your attempt to write theology.

To begin with, there were no scripture addresses in the Bible given to us from Yashuah ha'Mashiah, you call Him Jesus. [see John 1:1-5] Our LORD is the Elohim of both Testaments.

Later, in an attempt, I believe, to make Scriptures easier to study, men introduced the system of Chapters and Verses into the recording of the scriptures. And, indeed, this was simultaneously, perhaps, the best thing and the greateswt evil ever done to YHWH's Word for us.

Posted many times I repost:
I feel the first fact that needs grasping is there is a division in time between the recording the Jewish Bible, now, incorrectly, known as the Old Testament and the Final Renewing of the covenant between YHWH and Mankind, misnamed as The New Testament.



The Abrahamic Covenant was not dismissed when YHWH renewed, expanded, if you will, but rather it was Renewed and in doing so YHWH expanded, in a specific manor, the requirements through the 613 directions on living a Holy Life before YHWH.



Likewise, many Heretical False Teachers instruct that this "New Covenant" superseded the old one, never even understanding YHWH had a Covenant between Adam and Himself that was renewed with Abraham and later, renewed/expanded with Noah.



If you have issue with seeing this renewing of the Single Covenant between YHWH and man, established and governed by YHWH, please, try not to attempt dragging me into a vain debate without you going to a Bible Source and purchasing the version of your choice with an excellent Chain Reference. I prefer the Thompson Chain Reference but there are other good works to study with.



Using the good chain reference trace any New Testament Verse Reference and after tracing a few of them to their origin a body learns that without the Bible Yashuah taught Christianity from this Renewed (New) Covenant (Testament) has no legs or foundation to stand on. The Holy Ẅörd of our Elohim is of a single major context folding many Life Lessons (Minor Contexts) within itself.



Now, about the major distraction within the Body of Yashuah. Both major positions are taught... which is dominant? Both are taught and stand hand in hand, side by side, each aiding the other.



The Time/Space Continuum we live within was created by YHWH through Yashuah. (Please read through the Bible, all of it, paying particular attention to Genesis, chapter, 1 & 2 and John 1:1-5)



Our Elohim, from outside our Time/Space Continuum created said continuum for us to exist and and serve Him within. In 2Pet 3:8 and other addresses in Scripture we learn Time is meaningless and form the past 29 years of study I have been taught by Ruah that Our Elohim is without limit or confinement. This has led me to understand that YHWH, our Elohim, was and is in the Past, the Present and the Future before He created anything of or for us.



I.e. Before I walked, heart broken by YHWH, off the stage, to go serve Him, somewhere around six thousand years ago, He knew I would exercise my free will and would choose to leave the Popular Life and choose Him to serve over all the fine tasting drinks, beautiful women and all of the benefits, highs and adornments that go with being worshiped and adored. He knew and recorded my name in the Book of Life before I was born or even considered the pleasure available with and from 18 year old ladies just learning the wicked ways of living in and through the houses of Satan.



YHWH has two wills described in the Holy Scriptures. The first is YHWH’s Perfect Will and the second is the most visible in this world, His Permissive Will. Because YHWH is not bound to the Present but moves freely outside of and within the constraints of any understood and not understandable contiuum within and without this Space/Time Continuum we exist within at this time.



There is nothing our created minds know or do not know that limit our Elohim.



Remember please, there is not a single word in the scriptures that is not inspired and protected by Yashuah ha’Mashiah. (John 1:1-3 & Duet. 4:2)

Light of the East said:

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

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I believe pretty much everyone comes to this point. Or they come to a point which would lead to it if they seek to find the truth. God is not obligated to enlighten you completely, only to give you the tools to understand if you wish to seek out truth. Most are deceived because they choose to be deceived, even though they are given enough light to find the truth. In my theology, prevenient Grace is the grace that goes before and enlightens the heart so that it can then make a free will decision. Scripture says Grace has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11 All men are enlightened enough to find salvation if they seek him.

renniks said:

I believe pretty much everyone comes to this point. Or they come to a point which would lead to it if they seek to find the truth. God is not obligated to enlighten you completely, only to give you the tools to understand if you wish to seek out truth. Most are deceived because they choose to be deceived, even though they are given enough light to find the truth. In my theology, prevenient Grace is the grace that goes before and enlightens the heart so that it can then make a free will decision. Scripture says Grace has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11 All men are enlightened enough to find salvation if they seek him.

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I also agree that Scripture teaches Prevenient Grace. It harmonizes the many verses that we see.

Light of the East said:

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

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I think that what we go through is a natural result of our own fallen nature. God could well make everything perfect again as he eventually will. However the point of us going through what we are going through is a test to see who loves God enough to restore the original image of man and reunite with the trinity. You say everything is an illusion, I agree. However for the pious Christian these illusions are broken by the Holy Spirit. The elders and fathers all could see the ultimate reality. Sure life is suffering, but I think God is more fair then we give him credit for. We are trying to become little Christ's, it's quite the standard. Yet I can sin, repent, confess, and my sins are forgiven. God doesn't kill me when I partake in something as holy as the Eucharist. That and we have scripture to subdue the illusions. The reason there is so much suffering however is a direct result of the natural order being corrupted. Adam was given stewardship over the Earth. Therefore when he rebelled the entire order fell as the Earth relies on man for its purification. Christians can help change this but society is so far gone at this point that it seems hopeless.

Light of the East said:

This life is an illusion. It is not reality, but to those of us who have been born into it, it seems very real. Only Adam and Eve were capable of knowing what life was before the illusion set in, the illusion which came from sin.

Therefore, even the best of us labors under delusions and falsehoods regarding reality, especially that of life and God. Because we labor under these illusions, we cannot really be said to be able to me a "free-will" choice. If we cannot make a free-will choice, that is, a choice which is made without coercion of any kind, can it truly be said that we are culpable of willing to do evil? Some philosophers I have read (I think Aquinas may have said this) state that those who do evil see it as a good because of the deception they are under.

For instance, a tyrant may kill a whole group of people, but he thinks he is doing good because the good he sees is the "purity of the race" or the "unity of the nation." Banks charge interest (usury) because they see it as a good, i.e., making profits, despite the Bible prohibiting it.

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment? Or is it more just to bring that soul to a place where it sees the reality as it really is - that is, the soul sees the reality of evil and the reality of Christ - and then say "Now, decide. Will you repent and submit to Christ's lordship, or do you wish evil forever?

That would be the only just manner in which souls could inherit eternal suffering, and I doubt that any soul, seeing clearly and without coercion the difference between evil (non-being) and Christ, would choose evil.

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Life isn't a illusion ... we are real flesh and blood human beings living in the midst of a spiritual war ... and that isn't an illusion either.

and God don't torture people for eternity either ... now that IS a real deception / illusion.

[/QUOTE] Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?
[/QUOTE]

God looks at the heart and only HE knows it ... and yes that is very fair.

Proverbs 21:2

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,

Romans 8:27

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Psalm 44:21
Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.

Romans 10:10

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Philippians 4:7

And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 119:11

I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Light of the East said:

Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?

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I think it depends on why person is deceived.

Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. Righteous person is loyal to God, that is why I don’t think righteous person can be deceived.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

It is possible that the person who is deceived, doesn’t get punishment of the action that he did when deceived, but because the person was not loyal/faithful to God and showed by his actions that he is not righteous.

Maria Billingsley said:

There is plenty of scripture that addresses the evil heart. IMO, God gave only one law to Adam and Eve and they broke it because they did indeed have "free will" and chose not to obey. This opened humanity to the serpent "deceiver". Jesus Christ of Nazareth has bound the "strong man" forever. This is open to anyone who cares to seek Him out. This is still a "free will" choice. Nothing is blocking anyone from seeking the truth. Merely some people do not care to know.
Blessings

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Question.... no one is blocking anyone from seeking the truth. So that persons seeks and arrives at a different truth than you have arrived at. They truly feel they have done the best they can with the information given. Do you believe God will have mercy on them?

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

So that persons seeks and arrives at a different truth than you have arrived at. They truly feel they have done the best they can with the information given. Do you believe God will have mercy on them?

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If that seeking is based on Jesus, we will end up in the same place, even if we all start off in different places.

"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 John 3:2-3 NKJV

"Is it fair to punish those who have been deceived?"

"if you were blind you would have no sin...you say you see your sin remains" So many are blind

Blade said:

So many are blind

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But they purposely blinded themselves in a vain effort to escape responsibility. Does that effect release them from consequences of their initial rebellion?

Light of the East said:

So if we really cannot make a pure, uncoerced free-will decision, then is it just to send those of us who have been deceived into a state of eternal torment?

Click to expand...

There's a point that many people miss. There is not one single person who ever lived on earth who will be cast into the Lake of Fire because of sin. Because of being deceived, as you put it.

We all sin. Even the saved. Nobody is perfect.

No. Those who are condemned to eternal torment will be there because they did not accept Christ's gift of salvation. Period. It really is just that simple.