What about the 144,000 in Revelation

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said: ↑
2 Cor. 11:2 is in reference to a singular entity made up of a collective of individuals whereas Rev. 14:4 is in the plural
So, of whom are the 144,000 the first fruits unto Christ?
Not of Israel or of any other people or place for there were others who came unto Christ before them.
That in and of itself opens us up to debate on topics that take us beyond the scope of this thread and are best debated on another thread.

A member brought up the 144000 in Revelation and I didn't find a thread on this board on that topic so I thought I would start one.
I have not really studied on this very much so I profess I will probably have to resort to other members input along with commentaries from outside sources.

That being said, here are the 3 verses showing the phrase "one hundred forty four thousand".
Discuss.

NKJV
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Rev 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, a[fn] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having[fn] His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:3
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

Jonaitis · Aug 27, 2019

I've begun to understand that the 144,000 are the Jewish believers of the first century, or the "branches" that weren't at all broken off from the olive tree. The Twelve would be among that number.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2019

They are not 144,000 "Jews/Judeans" but born again Christian Israelites..........

Topic located on CF:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...L6wKHWUnDw0QrQIoBDAAegQIBBAN&biw=1366&bih=626

Topic on other sites:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwibjobavKTkAhUQY6wKHdcQDjgQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

Morning Musings: Revelation 7 and 14 clearly anticipated the salvation of the remnant of Old Covenant Israel.
The thing is that Paul had some powerful things to say about that which demand a first century fulfillment! This is really cool stuff, so take a look and pass it on!

Comments

jcismyall 5 months ago

This makes perfect sense! What doesn’t make sense is why do people think the word “Jew” means the same as it did then in the Bible. Today ANYONE who converts or follows the man made rabbinical religion of Judaism is called Jewish hence Chinese Jews, Ethiopian Jews etc. Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3). The 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. XI p 533, stated that ‘probably 95% of the persons included in these estimates of Jewish populations are Ashkenazim‘. The Encyclopedia Judaica (1972) records, “Khazars, a national group of general Turkic type, indendendent and sovereign in Eastern Europe between the seventh and tenth centuries C.E. During part of this time the leading Khazaras professed Judaism…

In spite of the negligible information of an archaeologica nature, the presence of Jewish groups and the impact of Jewish ideas in Eastern Europe are considerable during the Middle Ages. Groups have been mentioned as migrating to Central Europe from the East often have been referred to as Khazars, thus making it impossible to overlook the possibility that they originated from with the former Khazar Empire.” So Jews today are not related to that remnant the Bible was speaking of & this is from Judaism’s own admission.
=========================
History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

The Etymology of the Word "Jew"

In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him." The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

Today most people think of Jews as the people of Israel, but that is not correct. An Israelite was one who had descended from Jacob. In Jesus' time individual Jews may or may not have descended from Jacob, but they all recognized Pharisaism and not the Law of Moses. A Jew is properly a Judean.

The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets, a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea. A Judean. But a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the new word "Jew" which is not the understanding intended by the Scripture of truth. Those who call themselves Jews today falsely imply they are somehow descendants of the tribes of Israel and chosen of God. Yet few of them are Jews as they are not "Judeans," or residents of Judea.

So if modern day so-called Jews are not the Jews of the Bible, who are they? When asked, "Who is Israel? - Who is a Jew?" the Israeli Government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) unhesitatingly answered:

"The term Israelite is purely Biblical. An Israeli is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion. A Jew is a person anywhere in the world born to a Jewish mother, or converted to Judaism, who is thus identified as a member of the Jewish people and religion" (Information Division, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem; February, 1998).

The Jewish Almanac concurs: "Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews were not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people" (The Jewish Almanac, October, 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc).

The Online Etymology Dictionary describes the etymology of the word 'jew,' but perhaps because its editor is not a Bible student it exhibits an ignorance of the meaning of the original Greek word Ioudaios derived from the Aramaic jehudhai which did not refer to members of the tribe of Judah but to Judeans, the residents of the Babylonian province of Judea. The spelling of our present-day English word Jew is a transliteration of an abbreviation or slang word coined by their Babylonian conquerors for Judeans without reference to the race or religion of the captives. The editor has inadvertently discriminated the Semitic tribesmen of the sons of Israel from the diverse mass of races and religions then resident in Judea by applying the incorrect colloquial idiom, not having recognized the true and Biblical meaning of the original words.

The Introduction of the Word "Jew" into God's Holy Bible

In 1604, James VI, King of Scotland from his youth, became King James I of England, the first ruler of Britain and Ireland. Because of the growing animosity of James toward the Puritans, a leading Puritan spokesman, Dr. John Reynolds, proposed that a new English Bible be issued in honour of the new King. ............

Jonaitis · Aug 27, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I've begun to understand that the 144,000 are the Jewish believers of the first century, or the "branches" that weren't at all broken off from the olive tree. The Twelve would be among that number.

I use to hold to the idea that these represented the Christian Church in general, but not anymore. John is referring to the collection of believers who had be born under the Old Covenant and yet found salvation after the establishment of the New Covenant - the believing Jews of the apostolic age.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 27, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
A member brought up the 144000 in Revelation and I didn't find a thread on this board on that topic so I thought I would start one.
I have not really studied on this very much so I profess I will probably have to resort to other members input along with commentaries from outside sources.

That being said, here are the 3 verses showing the phrase "one hundred forty four thousand".
Discuss.

NKJV
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Rev 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, a[fn] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having[fn] His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:3
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

These are the Jews who hear and believe the gospel and come converted to Christ during the Great Tribulation, and who go around the world preaching the gospel. There are also the two witnesses who will be seen preaching the gospel and then killed, and everyone through satellite TV will see them rising from the dead. Also there will be an angel flying through the sky proclaiming the gospel as well. All those who believe the gospel and are saved during that time will flee into the wilderness to a place of protection prepared for them by God, to escape the persecution and massacres that will happen during that time. When Jesus comes again with His bride (those who were resurrected and those caught up in the rapture, they will join Christ when He sets up His throne to reign for 1000 years.

If the prophecies concerning the first coming of the Messiah have been fulfilled right down to the last detail, then this prophecy concerning the Tribulation will be fulfilled to the exact detail as prophesied in Revelation.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I've begun to understand that the 144,000 are the Jewish believers of the first century, or the "branches" that weren't at all broken off from the olive tree. The Twelve would be among that number.

Jonaitis said:
I use to hold to the idea that these represented the Christian Church in general, but not anymore. John is referring to the collection of believers who had be born under the Old Covenant and yet found salvation after the establishment of the New Covenant - the believing Jews of the apostolic age.

I find that view very plausible and even correct. Thanks for posting

JIMINZ · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Surely, when you are the one stacking the blocks of your understanding, you will only see the building which you yourself have constructed.

Strangely enough I was just, literally just 10 min. ago speaking to my whife about this very subject.

Let me go back and gather the Verses I used to convince her, I will get back with you soon.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

JIMINZ said:
Surely, when you are the one stacking the blocks of your understanding, you will only see the building which you yourself have constructed.

Strangely enough I was just, literally just 10 min. ago speaking to my whife about this very subject.

Let me go back and gather the Verses I used to convince her, I will get back with you soon.

Sure.

Scripture constructs the building for us. (1 Peter 2:4,5)

ewq1938 · Aug 27, 2019

The 144k are Christians who are original branches of Israel (all 12 tribes). They are sealed before the great tribulation begins, and they meet Christ after He has returned at the second coming so they have nothing to do with the first century. None of Rev does.

JIMINZ · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

But according to your very own verse which you just produced, that belief is a direct contradiction from what the verse actually says.

Rev 7:3,4
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Scripture then begins to list the Twelve tribes and the 12,000 from each.

Therefore when you say.
"That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:"

It is clearly NOT speaking of anyone but the Jews, which are by the way, The Bride.

JIMINZ · Aug 27, 2019

Let me do it this way.

Staying fully within the context of the entire thought, without any assumption, supposition, or allusion to anything else on my part, you tell me who do you believe is being spoken of in these verses.

1) All Christians of all time?
2) Both Jewish and Gentile Believers in Christ?
3) Only Gentile Believers in Christ?
4) Only Jewish Believers in Christ?

Rom 11:1-10
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

JIMINZ · Aug 27, 2019

ewq1938 said:
and they meet Christ after He has returned at the second coming so they have nothing to do with the first century. None of Rev does.

Why, on what grounds do you hold that belief?

ewq1938 · Aug 27, 2019

JIMINZ said:
Why, on what grounds do you hold that belief?

Because Christ did not return and meet 144k people in Mt Zion in the first century. There is one second coming and it hasn't happened yet. As for the book of Rev, nothing there matches what happened in the first century. The biggest one is the fact that Jerusalem is not destroyed by any army anywhere in Rev. The only damage that happens to it is from Earthquakes and it's not completely destroyed. The other issue is Rev describes persecution of Christians not Jews (Judaism). In the first century Roman's punished the Jews for rebelling. That isn't found in Rev.

jgr · Aug 28, 2019

JIMINZ said:
But according to your very own verse which you just produced, that belief is a direct contradiction from what the verse actually says.

Rev 7:3,4
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Scripture then begins to list the Twelve tribes and the 12,000 from each.

Therefore when you say.
"That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:"

It is clearly NOT speaking of anyone but the Jews, which are by the way, The Bride.

You should have continued reading.

"
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

"

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 28, 2019

ewq1938 said:
Because Christ did not return and meet 144k people in Mt Zion in the first century. There is one second coming and it hasn't happened yet. As for the book of Rev, nothing there matches what happened in the first century. The biggest one is the fact that Jerusalem is not destroyed by any army anywhere in Rev. The only damage that happens to it is from Earthquakes and it's not completely destroyed. The other issue is Rev describes persecution of Christians not Jews (Judaism). In the first century Roman's punished the Jews for rebelling. That isn't found in Rev.

Thou art in error...............

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 17:16
And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>and shall be burning Her in fire.
17 For the GOD gives<1325> into Their hearts to do<4160> the mind<1106> of Him, and to do One mindand to give Their kingdom to the Beast until shall be being finished<5055> the words of the GO

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
===========================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
The Historical Fall of Jerusalem in AD70
TRACKING THE FIRST JEWISH REVOLT FROM A MILITARY POINT OF VIEW

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...........

The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe. The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully ; while the unhappy people who were pent up between the enemy and the flames, deplored their situation in the most pitiable complaints. Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes. The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan.
The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire.

keras · Aug 28, 2019

The great multitude and the 144,000:
Much controversy surrounds them. Who are they and what do they do?

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.
This ordeal is logically and literally; the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-21, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him. After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000

From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there.

Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 exactly states.

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.

There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 28, 2019

Interesting that the RCC still remains Amill.....

Chapter 2. Pre-Millennalism - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

Premillennialists are divided into three different "Schools of Interpretation," which are fundamentally antagonistic, known as the "Preterits," "Historical" and "Futurist" Schools.

The "Preterist School" originated with the Jesuit Alcazar. His view was first put forth as a complete scheme in his work on the Apocalypse, published in A.D. 1614. It limits the scope of the Apocalypse to the events of the Apostle John's life, and affirms that the whole prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, and the subsequent fall of the persecuting Roman Empire, thus making the Emperor Nero the "Antichrist."
The purpose of the scheme was transparent, it was to relieve the Papal Church from the stigma of being called the "Harlot Church" and the Pope from being called the "Antichrist." It is a view that is now but little advocated.[LLoJ Revelation 19:1
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19]

The "Historical School," sometimes spoken of as the "Presentist" scheme, interprets the Apocalypse as a series of prophecies predicting the events that were to happen in the world and in the Church from John's day to the end of time. The advocates of this School interpret the symbols of the Book of Revelation as referring to certain historical events that have and are happening in the world. They claim that "Antichrist" is a "System" rather than a "Person," and is represented by the Harlot Church of Rome. They interpret the "Time Element" in the Book on the "Year Day Scale." This School has had some very able and ingenious advocates. This view, like the preceding was unknown to the early church. It appeared about the middle of the Twelfth Century, and was systematized in the beginning of the Thirteenth Century by the Abbot Joachim. Subsequently it was adopted and applied to the Pope by the forerunners and leaders of the Reformation, and may be said to have reached its zenith in Mr. Ellicott's "Horae Apocalypticae." It is frequently called the Protestant interpretation because it regards Popery as exhausting all that has been predicted of the Antichristian power. It was a powerful and formidable weapon in the hands of the leaders of the Reformation, and the conviction of its truthfulness nerved them to "love not their lives unto the death." It was the secret of the martyr heroism of the Sixteenth Century.

The "Futurist School" interprets the language of the Apocalypse "literally," except such symbols as are named as such, and holds that the whole of the Book, from the end of the third chapter, is yet "future" and unfulfilled, and that the greater part of the Book, from the beginning of chapter six to the end of chapter nineteen, describes what shall come to pass during the last week of "Daniel's Seventy Weeks." This view, while it dates in modern times only from the close of the Sixteenth Century, is really the most ancient of the three. It was held in many of its prominent features by the primitive Fathers of the Church, and is one of the early interpretations of scripture truth that sunk into oblivion with the growth of Papacy, and that has been restored to the Church in these last times. In its present form it may be said to have originated at the end of the Sixteenth Century with the Jesuit Ribera, who, actuated by the same motive as the Jesuit Alcazar, sought to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the "Antichrist," and so referred the prophecies of the Apocalypse to the distant future.
This view was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and that among Protestants. It is the most largely accepted of the three views. It has been charged with ignoring the Papal and Mohammedan systems, but this is far from the truth, for it looks upon them as foreshadowed in the scriptures, and sees in them the "Type" of those great "Anti-Types" yet future, the "Beast" and the "False Prophet." The "Futurist" interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book.

The Second and Premillennial Coming of Christ is the "Key" to the Scriptures. All of the prophetical writings make it their terminal end. This is a dark world and the "Sure Word of Prophecy" is given as a light to show us the way over the stormy sea of time. 2Pet. 1:19. Prophecy is not a haphazard guess, like our weather probabilities, it is

History Written in Advance.
The moment we grasp this idea of prophecy and clearly see the relation of Christ's Premillennial Coming to scripture truth, the Bible becomes a new book, and doctrinal and prophetical truths at once fall into their proper place, and our theological system is no longer a chaos but an orderly plan.

What about the 144,000 in Revelation

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Soli Deo Gloria

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Soli Deo Gloria

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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