Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
There are a plethora of threads on CF concerning that topic.......Just use Google..........

Topic located on CF:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...L6wKHWUnDw0QrQIoBDAAegQIBBAN&biw=1366&bih=626

Topic on other sites:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwibjobavKTkAhUQY6wKHdcQDjgQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

Morning Musings: Revelation 7 and 14 clearly anticipated the salvation of the remnant of Old Covenant Israel. The thing is that Paul had some powerful things to say about that which demand a first century fulfillment! This is really cool stuff, so take a look and pass it on!

Comments

jcismyall 5 months ago

This makes perfect sense! What doesn’t make sense is why do people think the word “Jew” means the same as it did then in the Bible. Today ANYONE who converts or follows the man made rabbinical religion of Judaism is called Jewish hence Chinese Jews, Ethiopian Jews etc. Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3). The 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. XI p 533, stated that ‘probably 95% of the persons included in these estimates of Jewish populations are Ashkenazim‘. The Encyclopedia Judaica (1972) records, “Khazars, a national group of general Turkic type, indendendent and sovereign in Eastern Europe between the seventh and tenth centuries C.E. During part of this time the leading Khazaras professed Judaism… In spite of the negligible information of an archaeologica nature, the presence of Jewish groups and the impact of Jewish ideas in Eastern Europe are considerable during the Middle Ages. Groups have been mentioned as migrating to Central Europe from the East often have been referred to as Khazars, thus making it impossible to overlook the possibility that they originated from with the former Khazar Empire.” So Jews today are not related to that remnant the Bible was speaking of & this is from Judaism’s own admission.
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Informative as your links may be as they pertain to the 144,000 as far as the different opinions surrounding them goes, debating that topic any further would lead us away from the topic of this thread and as far as Jewish identity is concerned, there is debate about this even amongst the Jewish community. For some, being a Jew by blood is enough but to others, it takes more to be a Jew than simply being descended from their lineage.

The Bible defines a Jew by ethnicity which has been the general position of professing Christian Jews as is explained in detail by the following link:

Jewish and Christian: Can It Be? • Jews for Jesus

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Informative as your links may be as they pertain to the 144,000 as far as the different opinions surrounding them goes, debating that topic any further would lead us away from the topic of this thread and as far as Jewish identity is concerned, there is debate about this even amongst the Jewish community. For some, being a Jew by blood is enough but to others, it takes more to be a Jew than simply being descended from their lineage.

The Bible defines a Jew by ethnicity which has been the general position of professing Christian Jews as is explained in detail by the following link:

Jewish and Christian: Can It Be? • Jews for Jesus

I am also curious about that 144,000, so I created a thread on it........see ya over there.......

What about the 144,000 in Revelation

LittleLambofJesus said:
A member brought up the 144000 in Revelation and I didn't find a thread on this board on that topic so I thought I would start one.
I have not really studied on this very much so I profess I will probably have to resort to other members input along with commentaries from outside sources.

That being said, here are the 3 verses showing the phrase "one hundred forty four thousand".
Discuss.

NKJV
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Rev 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, a[fn] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having[fn] His Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:3
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
Jews or Gentiles?

I am referring with whom everyone (Jew or Gentile) sides with in the end. We are engaged in a battle for souls and the time is coming when the blinders will be taken off and the two choices will be made clear to everyone on the earth as to whom they will side with. God or Satan.

Ultimately, the Jews will side with God (that is a given) and call upon Jesus to save them from their enemies. When they receive the Messiah, they will receive all the blessings pertaining to them in full and naturally, those Gentiles among them who also call on the Messiah will also partake in those blessings to whatever degree God decides.

God is a God of consistency and of a consistent nature (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) and if the Gentiles living among the Jews when Israel was first established experienced, to whatever extent God granted, the blessings upon the nation when the people were devoting themselves to Him, any Gentiles among the Jews certainly will experience those blessings pertaining to Israel to whatever extent God will grant when the nation embraces the New Covenant.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am also curious about that 144,000, so I created a thread on it........see ya over there.......

What about the 144,000 in Revelation

If God wills, I will be sure to visit your thread when all is said and done over here.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
If God wills, I will be sure to visit your thread when all is said and done over here.

Sure

Also visit my thread on this covenantle parable in Luke 16.......
The Rich man is symbolizing the Jews......

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
They are the first fruits of a time in our future during which the Church is no longer present upon the earth but has been removed from there by Christ before that dark time to come upon the earth known as the tribulation.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, in the passage below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

If you think those in the verse above are not part of the Church, try again...

.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
I thought that any Gentiles who aligned themselves with any ethnic Jews would receive Messiah's blessings.

You've earlier referred to good and bad Israelites. What distinguishes each of them, and what is the ultimate fate of each of them?

To get down to it, what distinguishes a good Israelite from an evil one is based on how anyone would distinguish any good person from an evil one. And it is because of the unrepentant and wicked people amongst the Jews that the nation of Israel is required of God to undergo a purging process until only those who repent remain.

It is after this spiritual transformation of the nation that they receive all the blessings pertaining to them that God has desired to give them and naturally, to whatever extent God decides, any surviving Gentiles among them will also be sharing in those blessings as well. In whatever fashion God dealt with any Gentiles amongst the Israelites in the days when the nation was first established will be no different under the reign of Christ.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Sure
Also visit my thread on this covenantle parable in Luke 16.......
The Rich man is symbolizing the Jews......

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

I will be sure to.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Ultimately, the Jews will side with God (that is a given) and call upon Jesus to save them from their enemies.

So any person with Jewish DNA will ultimately automatically side with God?

If of their free will they do not wish to side with God, He will overrule their free will and compel them to side with Him; thus their will is irrelevant?

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

BABerean2 said:
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, in the passage below.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

If you think those in the verse above are not part of the Church, try again...

.

The book of Revelation speaks of a multitude of saints who come to Christ during a time that is called the tribulation. The 144,000 are the first among men to receive Christ during that tribulation. It is the only reason why they would be called first fruits. It could be argued that they are made a part of the Church who is with Christ during this terrible time though they are not present with the Church if you so like, but again, the rapture, which I know you Preterists deny, is a subject best debated on a thread pertaining to such.

keras · Aug 27, 2019

Soon to happen; Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +, and then this:

At the great gathering into the promised Land, as described to us by the prophets, the Lord’s righteous people: every faithful Christian, will march proudly to music as they enter their heritage. Ephesians 1:10-14 Their Redeemer and Deliverer is waiting to show them His favor, He will guide and protect them, in the same manner as He did with their ancestors during the Exodus from Egypt. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
The Land will blossom and flourish, Isaiah 35:1-10 and they will live there in peace and security, excepting for a 3½ year period of control by the Anti Christ. Then will come the return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

Isaiah 30:18 Yet the Lord is waiting to show you His favor, He yearns to have pity on you. Happy are those who wait on Him!

Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from among the peoples and gather you from the lands where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into a desert place and bring you into judgement, as I did with your ancestors out of Egypt. I shall pass you under the rod of judgement and count you as you enter Israel. Those who revolt and rebel against Me will not enter the Land.

‘outpoured wrath’ refers to the next prophesied event – the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath and vengeance, that destroys His enemies and cleanses the Land by fire. The Christian Israelites will then march into and take over all that area promised, so long ago to Abraham.

Ezekiel 36:8 You: Land of Israel – grow your trees and yield your fruit, for the homecoming of My people, Israel, is near.

Micah 4:6 On that Day, I shall gather those who are lost, I shall assemble the dispersed.

Micah 2:12 I will assemble you, the whole House of Jacob. [now every faithful Christian] I will gather you together with those remaining in Israel and herd them like sheep in a fold.

Jeremiah 3:22 Come back, you apostate people and I shall heal you. Here we are, our God, we are coming back to You.

Jeremiah 31:8-9 See how I bring My people from the ends of the earth, a vast company – they come home, weeping and repentant. I shall comfort them and lead them on smooth paths.

Isaiah 43:19 I am about to do something new, can you see it? I will make a path for My people.

Isaiah 58:11 The Lord will guide you, He will satisfy your needs in the desert and give strength.

Isaiah 62:10 Pass through the gates, clear a road for My people and mark their way.

Isaiah 42:16 Without fail, I shall lead the blind and guide My people along paths unknown to them.

Psalms 68:7-9 The Lord, leading His people, marching through the desert- the earth shakes and rain pours down. Isaiah 44:3

Isaiah 30:29 For you there will be joyful singing, as you march into Israel, the Holy Land of God.

Isaiah 40:26-31 Lift your eyes to the heavens, consider your Creator, He leads His people out – each summoned by name, none are missing. He gives strength to the exhausted and those who look to Him will not faint, they march as on eagles wings.

Obadiah 19:21 My people will possess the Negev, Samaria, Northern and southern Jordan and all the coastlands of the Mediterranean.

Isaiah 49:8-11 The Lord says: In the time of My favour, on the Day of Deliverance, I will come to your aid, you are My people destined to be a light to the nations and to restore the Land. Go free now and in the Land you will find food and water in plenty. It will not be too hot when the One who loves them will guide them along highways. My people, coming from all parts of the world, will shout for joy as they enter their Land. For God has comforted His people in their distress.
Reference REB. Some verses abridged.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
So any person with Jewish DNA will ultimately automatically side with God?

If of their free will they do not wish to side with God, He will overrule their free will and compel them to side with Him; thus their will is irrelevant?

I realize you probably haven't yet come across it, but in another of your posts to which I responded, I did mention that a time is coming in which the wicked among the nation of Israel will be purged until only the repentant remain. Once that purge and refining process is completed, they who remain will be those who have turned to God.

keras · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
The book of Revelation speaks of a multitude of saints who come to Christ during a time that is called the tribulation.

Actually it doesn't.
Revelation 13:5 says all the world will worship the 'beast'. Only those whose names are already Written in the Book of Life will not and the way to get your name in the Book of Life; is to believe in God, keep His Commandments and to accept the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Its too late when the 'beast' comes on the scene.

So your unsupported statement above, is quite wrong and a retraction is required.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

keras said:
Actually it doesn't.
Revelation 13:5 says all the world will worship the 'beast'. Only those whose names are already Written in the Book of Life will not and the way to get your name in the Book of Life; is to believe in God, keep His Commandments and to accept the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Its too late when the 'beast' comes on the scene.

So your unsupported statement above, is quite wrong and a retraction is required.

My statement for which you claim a retraction is required is supported by Revelation 7:9-17 and not everyone worships the beast nor do they take his mark and as a result, they are killed for the length of time the Beast is given power over them. (Rev. 13:15) For further confirmation of this, read Rev. 20:4 and the book of Daniel as it pertains to the Anti-Christ which is another subject of which further debate and discussion would cause us to stray from the topic of this thread.

jgr · Aug 28, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
I realize you probably haven't yet come across it, but in another of your posts to which I responded, I did mention that a time is coming in which the wicked among the nation of Israel will be purged until only the repentant remain. Once that purge and refining process is completed, they who remain will be those who have turned to God.

Dispensationally, Zechariah 12:10 declares the salvation of the entire nation.

Dispensationally, Zechariah 13:8 declares that 2/3 will be cut off.

So the 2/3 are still saved, even though they are subsequently cut off.

Note then that Judas, Caiaphas, and all responsible for Christ's death are saved in Zechariah 12:10 ("they shall look upon me whom they have pierced").

keras · Aug 28, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
My statement for which you claim a retraction is required is supported by Revelation 7:9-17 and not everyone worships the beast nor do they take his mark and as a result, they are killed for the length of time the Beast is given power over them.

The vast multitude that John sees in Revelation 7:9, are all the faithful Christians who stood firm in their faith during the just happened Sixth Seal event; the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. They have gathered in the holy Land and do not have to take the 'mark of the beast'. Most of them will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 1260 days of the Great Trib. Revelation 12:14
Seeing this scenario any other way necessitates a shuffling of Revelation and a wrong belief of what God has planned for His people in the end times.

Your belief of people becoming Christian during the reign of the Anti-Christ, is further refuted by 2 Thess 2:3...there will be a falling away....

BABerean2 · Aug 28, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
but again, the rapture, which I know you Preterists deny, is a subject best debated on a thread pertaining to such.

Christ was a "Partial Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, unless the second Jewish temple is still standing. Therefore, I have the same viewpoint.

I do not deny the gathering of the Church at His Second Coming, which is described in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5.
The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected. The event is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
However, there is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

.

Contenders Edge · Aug 28, 2019

jgr said:
Dispensationally, Zechariah 12:10 declares the salvation of the entire nation.

Dispensationally, Zechariah 13:8 declares that 2/3 will be cut off.

So the 2/3 are still saved, even though they are subsequently cut off.

Note then that Judas, Caiaphas, and all responsible for Christ's death are saved in Zechariah 12:10 ("they shall look upon me whom they have pierced").

"Ye do err not knowing the scriptures". (Mt. 22:29) Zechariah says that only a third of the nation is delivered and saved. It is they who call upon the Messiah and are saved. This is why Paul says that all of Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:26) and yet only a remnant. (Rom. 9:27)

Contenders Edge · Aug 28, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Christ was a "Partial Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, unless the second Jewish temple is still standing. Therefore, I have the same viewpoint.

I do not deny the gathering of the Church at His Second Coming, which is described in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5.
The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected. The event is described at the end of chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
However, there is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

.

1 Thess. 4:10 says that we are caught up from the earth and meet the Lord in the air and ever with Him. Where do we go with Him if not back to Heaven?

Contenders Edge · Aug 28, 2019

keras said:
The vast multitude that John sees in Revelation 7:9, are all the faithful Christians who stood firm in their faith during the just happened Sixth Seal event; the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. They have gathered in the holy Land and do not have to take the 'mark of the beast'. Most of them will be taken to a place of safety on earth, during the 1260 days of the Great Trib. Revelation 12:14
Seeing this scenario any other way necessitates a shuffling of Revelation and a wrong belief of what God has planned for His people in the end times.

Your belief of people becoming Christian during the reign of the Anti-Christ, is further refuted by 2 Thess 2:3...there will be a falling away....

The falling away takes place first and then the Anti-Christ is revealed. After a certain number of God's people are taken to a place of refuge, Revelation chapter 12 does go on to say that Satan, after failing to destroy those whom God takes to that undisclosed place of refuge, goes on to attack the rest of God's people who are not taken to this place of safety. Revelation chapter 13 tells us who will be the instrument of that great persecution and that they who refuse to worship the Beast or take his mark will be killed. Revelation 20:4 tells us the manner in which all who refuse to worship the Anti-Christ will die.

How is there any persecution of Christians if no one is coming to Christ during the tribulation and those already in the faith beforehand are hidden away from the Anti-Christ?

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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