Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Contenders Edge · Aug 26, 2019

jgr said:
Someone who does not know of God's omnipotence and fairness might look at your list of qualifications, and consider such questions to be perfectly logical and reasonable.

In such a person's shoes, so would I.

Would you answer his/her questions?

Only under such circumstances would I give the best answer I possibly could, but are you such a person?

Contenders Edge · Aug 26, 2019

jgr said:
Good; I do.

Does "land" appear in Galatians 3?

Does the "Promised Seed" inherit the promised land?

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Only under such circumstances would I give the best answer I possibly could, but are you such a person?

Assume that I'm inquiring on behalf of one.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Does the "Promised Seed" inherit the promised land?

We don't look to Galatians 3 for the answer because the land is unmentioned there.

We do find the answer in Hebrews 1.

keras · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
God's grace has not run out for the Jews anymore than it has for anyone else. Yet in the end what remains of them will be those who finally call out to Jesus for deliverance during a time to come upon the world that is far worse than anytime before it or afterwards.

Bible prophecy is quite clear; Those who didn't and still don't want Jesus for their King, will be slaughtered. Luke 19:27, Isaiah 4:3-2, Zechariah 13:7=9

Contenders Edge said:
2 Kings 6:16 points out a distinction between the people of Judah and Israel but that distinction disappears after the seventy year captivity in Babylon.

Incorrect.
In over 160 prophesies the Bible, OT and NT; carefully separates Judah and Israel. Judah is represented by the Jewish State of Israel, but true Israel is still scattered among the nations. Mainly in the Christian nations of the Western Caucasian peoples; the place they migrated from.

Contenders Edge said:
And according to the book of Revelation, all the tribes appear to be accounted for because a certain number of each are called out for a specific purpose at a specific time yet to come. (Rev. 7:1-8)

We Christians, gathered in all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +, will be assigned to a tribe according to our family characteristics. It is the people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who the 144,000 are selected out of.

Do you actually believe there are 144,000 virgin men in Israel? They just might make their quota of 24,000; two tribes, from all the Jewish people in the world.

mark kennedy · Aug 27, 2019

Does anyone recall the original boundaries? One, if memory serves is from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates in Iraq. I only ask because to my knowledge they were never revoked.

keras · Aug 27, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Does anyone recall the original boundaries? One, if memory serves is from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates in Iraq. I only ask because to my knowledge they were never revoked.

Genesis 15:18 ...I give to your descendants this Land, from the river Euphrates to the river of Egypt; the Nile. East/West
Also from Turkey to Arabia. North/South

Who are the descendants of Abraham? Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 4:16

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
Assume that I'm inquiring on behalf of one.

Very well, I'll play along:

What if they should happen to be traveling outside of the land when He goes looking?

We may not know how God is going to gather all who are of the nation of Israel back to their homeland, we just know that it will happen; it is already happening. And whoever is of Israel who is not returned to the promised land in this present age will be brought there when the Messiah comes to reign.

To think impossible what God has declared will happen is to call God a liar and a denial of His omnipotence.

"So now when God goes looking for qualifying Jews, He must consider not only their DNA, but also the land in which they dwell?

“The land in which they dwell?” You misunderstand. What defines a Jew is not where they presently dwell but their ethnicity. Yet the people as a whole are bound to the land promised and given to their forefathers. Always have been. Always will be. For it is written concerning them that they would become a nation again in their own land, never to be uprooted from there again. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15)

In 1948, after roughly 2,000 years under Gentile jurisdiction, they were re-established as a nation in their own homeland.

Don't talmudic converts qualify? That's not fair."

When we charge God with unfairness, it is we who are being unfair for it is with God the concept of fairness originates.

If God is faithful in fulfilling even the least of all promises that He has made to one group of people, then we can be confident that He will fulfill all promises made to us who are in Christ. But if He cancels out any promises made to the nation of Israel whom He raised up to be a people unto Himself, then how can we trust Him to fulfill all that He has said concerning the Church?

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
We don't look to Galatians 3 for the answer because the land is unmentioned there.

We do find the answer in Hebrews 1.

At least you have decided to head in the direction of seeking the full counsel of scripture on the matter. Is it not also written that they who are in Christ are made fellow heirs with Him? And if the nation of Israel does not remain in unbelief, will they also not be made fellow-heirs as well concerning what pertains to them?

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

keras said:
Bible prophecy is quite clear; Those who didn't and still don't want Jesus for their King, will be slaughtered. Luke 19:27, Isaiah 4:3-2, Zechariah 13:7=9

That goes for Gentile as well.

keras said:
Incorrect.
In over 160 prophesies the Bible, OT and NT; carefully separates Judah and Israel. Judah is represented by the Jewish State of Israel, but true Israel is still scattered among the nations. Mainly in the Christian nations of the Western Caucasian peoples; the place they migrated from.

The prophecies you are referring to were foretold by the pre-exile prophets. After the end of the exile and captivity, that distinction disappears from the scriptures.

keras said:
We Christians, gathered in all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +, will be assigned to a tribe according to our family characteristics. It is the people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who the 144,000 are selected out of.

Do you actually believe there are 144,000 virgin men in Israel? They just might make their quota of 24,000; two tribes, from all the Jewish people in the world

I believe what the scripture presents and it does not teach that these 144,000 be "assigned" a tribe. Each member of that group will already belong to the tribe from which they are descended as is written.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
If God is faithful in fulfilling even the least of all promises that He has made to one group of people, then we can be confident that He will fulfill all promises made to us who are in Christ. But if He cancels out any promises made to the nation of Israel whom He raised up to be a people unto Himself, then how can we trust Him to fulfill all that He has said concerning the Church?

Do you consider talmudic converts who do not have qualifying DNA, to be part of the nation of Israel?

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
In 1948, after roughly 2,000 years under Gentile jurisdiction, they were re-established as a nation in their own homeland.

How many times does Jacob Rothschild give the credit to his family for creating the modern State of Israel, instead of God, in the interview below.

The difference between the Israelite Baal worshipers, and the faithful remnant, is found in the verse below.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Each member of that group will already belong to the tribe from which they are descended as is written.

Since the Northern tribes were taken into captivity shortly after the time of Solomon, those tribes no longer exist as a distinct bloodline.

The likelyhood of recreating those tribes is about the same as recreating a woolly mammoth.

Therefore, the 144,000 are symbolic in the same way that the Two Witnesses are the Two Olive trees, and the Two candlesticks.
Do you think they are men made of wood and metal?

If it is not symbolic, why would there be exactly 12,000 from each tribe?

You are also ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9.

1Ki 11:9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
1Ki 11:10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
1Ki 11:11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
1Ki 11:12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
1Ki 11:13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

.

claninja · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Even if the conditions under which God fulfills promises are made change, does that mean His faithfulness dies with the Old Covenant as well? If the promises made to Israel and all that was foretold concerning them do not meet their fulfillment under the New Testament, that is what the ramifications are. And if even the least of all promises made are not fulfilled, how can we be sure that the "Better Promises" will be? Is the unchangeable nature and faithfulness of God keeping the Old Covenant in effect?

A covenant is an agreement. The old covenant agreement involved responsibilities from 2 parties: God and Israel. If the old covenant agreement is done away with, then so are the responsibilities of both parties.

If your claim is that God's responsibilities under the covenant are still in effect, you should be able to show clear NT scripture (not debatable interpretation), that states this.

Contenders Edge said:
Are the natural branches able to be grafted back in again if they do not remain in unbelief? And what warning is issued to those branches grafted in that were not part of the natural olive tree?

Please answer my question first, which was asked first, and then I will answer your questions.

Again, What is the natural olive tree that the natural branches were broken off of, Israel or the Church?

Contenders Edge said:
Yet Paul seemed to believe that Hosea was referencing Gentiles. It would not otherwise make sense for him to appeal to Hosea as it concerns the salvation of the Gentiles if Hosea had not made reference to the Gentiles.

Correct, Paul believed the passage in Hosea about the northern kingdom being united with the southern kingdom was being fulfilled by the Gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. So why wouldn't this same principle be applied to Ezekiel 37, which is also about the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom being united under one king?

Contenders Edge said:
But were they exiled and scattered throughout the nations as the Jews were?

Greeks lived all over the known world in what is known as the greek diaspora.

Contenders Edge said:
There is the godly and the ungodly among Israel but the distinction between the Israel of the Spirit and the Israel of the flesh is not made until the New Testament.

So who are God's people, those that reject Him, or those obedient to Him? Can God's people reject the Son?

Contenders Edge said:
But what nations have descended from Ephraim? In such a case, then a tribe of Israel truly would be lost. But the scripture never said that any of the tribes would be lost. Only scattered.

The bloodlines of the divorced, exiled, and scattered descendants of the northern kingdom mixed with the nations. I have no idea what nationalities their descendants are. Paul simply refers to them as gentiles. So that's what they were.

Contenders Edge said:
However, it could be argued that due to their rebellion, God at some point, would have regarded the Northern Kingdom as being spiritually no different than the Gentiles.

Bingo. Paul confirms hosea 1, which is about the northern kingdom being united with the southern kingdom is fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23-26).

Contenders Edge said:
Israel consists of those who both continue in their rejection of Christ and those who have embraced Him. One day, Israel will consist only of those Jews who have embraced Christ after the unbelief has been purged from them. But that does not mean that Israel will lose its distinctiveness as a nation. God has made clear that He would forever preserve them as a nation and people. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26)

I disagree that God's people are those that reject him.

Contenders Edge said:
No, but it remains consistent with the basic image it portrays. Israel being punished only for its owns sins is not consistent with the image of one who suffers for the sins of others.

And literal being born again is not consistent with repentance and turning to God. but the picture of birth points to new creation through Christ. Again a shadow is not an exact replica.

Contenders Edge said:
That remnant being what will remain of the nation when that day comes.

Good, we agree.

Contenders Edge said:
Paul did say that they would not always continue in unbelief and could be grafted back in. (Rom. 11) And the nation of Israel, far from being destroyed is still alive and thriving despite having faced judgment before and yet you find it impossible that the nation as a whole would ever possibly repent?

Context = 1st century Jerusalem which bears no resemblance to modern day Israel.

Contenders Edge said:
Just show which scriptures that state that God is not capable of fulfilling in the New Testament what was not fulfilled beforehand.

Straw man argument.

Contenders Edge said:
And yet in spite of that, He has promised to preserve Israel as a distinct nation. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) There must be a purpose in that as well.

He has, through His Son (1 peter 2:9).

Contenders Edge said:
That has been used to point to Christ's relationship with the Church. As for why marriage was created in the first place, that is a subject far removed from this thread.

Again, shadows and pictures that point to reality in Christ.

Contenders Edge said:
When it comes to comparing scripture with scripture, it is not enough to note the similarities. We must also take into account the differences as well. The scriptures being compared may not be talking about the same thing.

God spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams, which were riddles and parables. They were pictures pointing to Christ.

Numbers 12:7-8 If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision,
I will speak to him in a dream; not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.

We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. Again, shadows are not exact replicas.

Numbers 12:7-8 If there is a prophet among you,

I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision,
I will speak to him in a dream;
7not so with My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house.
8I speak with him face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.

Contenders Edge said:
Ezekiel's vision of this temple depicts it on earth, not in Heaven, but one thing is for certain: When the New Jerusalem does arrive, the footstool will be much closer to the Throne than it presently is now. This shadow is portrayed just as literally as the reality. A study on the similarities and differences between the two would be great but not meant for this thread.

Visions that point to reality in Christ, not realities themselves.

Numbers 12:7-8
If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision,
I will speak to him in a dream; not so with My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face,
clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.

Hosea 12:10 spoke through the prophets
and multiplied their visions;
I gave parables through the prophets.

Contenders Edge said:
The passage is in reference to the New Jerusalem described in the 21st chapter of Revelation wherein it is stated that Christ will be that Temple of which we will be a part. We will forever be dwelling in His presence.

Will you ever leave the body Christ, whether you are on earth or in heaven?

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
At least you have decided to head in the direction of seeking the full counsel of scripture on the matter. Is it not also written that they who are in Christ are made fellow heirs with Him? And if the nation of Israel does not remain in unbelief, will they also not be made fellow-heirs as well concerning what pertains to them?

Here's more of the full counsel of Scripture:

Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

God has prepared a heavenly city in a better heavenly country for Abraham and all of the faithful irrespective of what flows in their and our veins.

They and we have no interest in, or desire to inhabit, any earthly "promised land", for they and we were and are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth".

Their and our abode is above.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

jgr said:
Do you consider talmudic converts who do not have qualifying DNA, to be part of the nation of Israel?

To best answer this question, when God established the nation of Israel and the law was given to them, what was done concerning the foreigners who were among them at that time after they had been rescued from Egypt? Were they also brought under the same law as well or under a different law? When the covenant was established, were they or were they not sanctified by it as much as any Israelite?

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

BABerean2 said:
How many times does Jacob Rothschild give the credit to his family for creating the modern State of Israel, instead of God, in the interview below.

The difference between the Israelite Baal worshipers, and the faithful remnant, is found in the verse below.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

.

Just because there are those among the people of Israel who may be blind to the significance of the re-establishment of Israel, that does not disqualify it from being a prophetic fulfillment.

Contenders Edge · Aug 27, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since the Northern tribes were taken into captivity shortly after the time of Solomon, those tribes no longer exist as a distinct bloodline.

The likelyhood of recreating those tribes is about the same as recreating a woolly mammoth.

Science and scripture disagree with your claim.

BABerean2 said:
Therefore, the 144,000 are symbolic in the same way that the Two Witnesses are the Two Olive trees, and the Two candlesticks.
Do you think they are men made of wood and metal?

There is no scriptural evidence that the 144,000 is a symbolic number.

BABerean2 said:
If it is not symbolic, why would there be exactly 12,000 from each tribe?

Why should there not be?

BABerean2 said:
You are also ignoring what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9.

You insist on claiming that this thread is a mere debate about genealogies, but as it pertains to Israel, as I have said in previous posts, it is much more than that.

jgr · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
To best answer this question, when God established the nation of Israel and the law was given to them, what was done concerning the foreigners who were among them at that time after they had been rescued from Egypt? Were they also brought under the same law as well or under a different law? When the covenant was established, were they or were they not sanctified by it as much as any Israelite?

They were full participants in the old covenant.

Does God recognize today's talmud to be the same as His old covenant?

BABerean2 · Aug 27, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
There is no scriptural evidence that the 144,000 is a symbolic number.

Do you deny that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

.

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Natura non facit saltum

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Similar threads