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You misinterpreted my prevous reply.

Every born again (non-denominational) Messianic believer (Jew and non-Jew) knows that Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Christ) is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate as well as the Lamb of GOD. This was not the case with the twelve Apostles before the cross. Before the cross the twelve disciples didn't even know/believe that Yeshua (the name the disciples called Him) was supernaturally born via Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit). It was only after the cross and resurrection that the original eleven disciples were born again having a circumcised heart that Yeshua, their teacher/master was Lord and God ...

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"​

Do you believe Jesus is the second person of the Godhead or Trinity?
Do you believe the Godhead or the Trinity always existed and is eternal?

Some wrongfully believe that the Son of God or the Living Word came into existence sometime shortly before the creation. This is false. The Son of God is eternal and He always existed.
 
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Francis Drake

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It was only after the cross and resurrection that the original eleven disciples were born again with a circumcised heart that Yeshua, their teacher/master was LORD
Although this is frequently stated, it has no validity.
All the OT saints were born from above by the Spirit of God, (Born again), long before the cross.
If that had not been the case, the prophets could never have done the miracles they did.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again", the Greek text clearly meant "right now", but if Nicodemus had to wait for another 3 years for Jesus to die before it was possible, Jesus's instructions become meaningless.

Again, look at the words.
Jn3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
OT scripture clearly describes various visions of heaven that the prophets had. According to Jesus, seeing this kingdom was not possible outside of being born again!
 
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ViaCrucis

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In Ephesians 4:5, Paul was speaking in light of the one baptism that truly matters (Which is Spirit baptism). Water baptism is just a picture or symbol of the real deal (Which is Spirit baptism). If Paul was referring to water baptism in Ephesians 4:5, then it would appear to be contradictory to his other statement that said he came not to baptize in 1 Corinthians 1:17. Yet, we know Paul baptized in Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7. In fact, this baptism by Paul in Acts of the Apostles 19 suggests a Spirit baptism and not a water baptism because Paul laid his hands on certain disciples in the upper coasts of Ephesus, and they received the Holy Ghost as a result of it.

There's no contradiction if we understand what Paul is saying. Paul is glad that he didn't personally baptize many in Corinth on account of how the Corinthians were dividing themselves into factions. Some saying "I am of Paul" others "I am of Cephas", etc. As he says, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" It doesn't matter who did the baptizing, "What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

As such the error you are making is that Paul thought Baptism not very important, instead rather Paul is saying that Paul is not very important. Paul is glad he didn't personally do the baptizing so not many could say, "I am of Paul".

Baptism, however, is still Baptism. The one Baptism of Ephesians 4:5 is Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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There's no contradiction if we understand what Paul is saying. Paul is glad that he didn't personally baptize many in Corinth on account of how the Corinthians were dividing themselves into factions. Some saying "I am of Paul" others "I am of Cephas", etc. As he says, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" It doesn't matter who did the baptizing, "What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

As such the error you are making is that Paul thought Baptism not very important, instead rather Paul is saying that Paul is not very important. Paul is glad he didn't personally do the baptizing so not many could say, "I am of Paul".

Baptism, however, is still Baptism. The one Baptism of Ephesians 4:5 is Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

1 Corinthians 3:4 says, "I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

Well, I believe 1 Corinthians 3:4 teaches that we are not to say we are followers of a specific religious person (like we are followers of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc. whereby we are called "Lutherans, Calvinists, Wesleyans, Arminians," etc.). Hence, why Paul says to the Corinthians that they are carnal if they say they are of Paul, or Apollos.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:17 that he came not to baptize, but in Acts 19, we see that he did baptize some disciples (who were already believers) in Ephesus. They were already baptized into John's baptism (Which was water baptism) and they were unaware of the Holy Ghost. So Paul had them baptized into the Spirit by laying hands on them (See: Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7).

Paul says, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;" (1 Corinthians 1:14). This showed the unimportant nature of water baptism. First, he thank God he did not baptize the majority of the Corinthians with the exception of Crispus, and Gaius.

Besides, if baptism was the one true baptism, then why did John the baptist say the following words?

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11).

Sure, you can say this is just Pentecost in Acts of the Apostles 2, and the event with Cornelius in Acts of the Apostles 10, but we also learn that others received the Spirit baptism (like in Acts of the Apostles 8, and in Acts of the Apostles 19). We know that in Romans 6 that there is a baptism that can help us to overcome grievous sin. Surely water baptism does not help to do that, but only baptism into the Spirit does that. For we are told in Galatians 5:16 that if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
 
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AbbaLove

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All the OT saints were born from above by the Spirit of God, (Born again), long before the cross.
If that had not been the case, the prophets could never have done the miracles they did.
Exactly my point that the supernatural Giftings of His Spirit will also be evident in today's truly Born Again believers just as it was with GOD's Spiritually inspired prophets of the OT, and later after His death on the Cross during the LORD's Jewish Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) as witnessed among His GOD-fearing faithful disciples and other Jews with supernatural (Gifts) from above that Glorify the LORD GOD. Before the cross Peter denied his teacher/master three times, but it was only after the Cross that Peter was truly Born Again from above.

Acts 3:6
But Peter said, "I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene-- walk!"​

Today's denominational doctrines (divisive theologies) have watered down the true Spiritual nature and supernatural Giftings of His Holy Spirit. Spiritual Gifts that are still evident in those that are truly Spiritually Born Again from above.

For BH to say that the twelve disciples were Born Again before the cross suggests that he believes Judas Iscariot was Born Again from above. There is no indication that the twelve disciples (before the cross) believed that Yeshua/Jesus was their Lord and God. It was only after His death on the Cross, His Resurrection, and the Jewish Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) that His remaining faithful Jewish Disciples were to become truly Born Again from above and Glorify the LORD GOD with supernatural signs and wonders as His faithful servants.

Zechariah 8:23
Thus says the LORD of hosts, In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.​
 
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AbbaLove

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Do you believe Jesus is the second person of the Godhead or Trinity?
Is it possible that it's you that doesn't believe that Yeshua HaMashiach/Jesus the Christ is the physical manifestation of Father GOD Incarnate?
Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you believe the Godhead or the Trinity always existed and is eternal?
The Triune nature of the GODhead is clearly evident in His Word ...
John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
________________________​
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Your posts seem to imply that you may be suspect that someone displaying a "Messianic" faith icon as being less knowledgeable of His Word. jPerhaps it's you that may mistakenly believe that the supernatural Spiritual Gifts mentioned by Paul (1 Corinthians 12:1-11) ceased after the passing of the Apostle John and the ministry of the apostle Paul to the non-Jewish Gentiles ...
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—
(also see: 1 Corinthians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1 and Galatians 1:1)​

Is it possible that non-Jewish cessationist Christians believe those Spiritual supernatural Gifts mentioned by Paul were only bestowed to a few Jewish Apostle/apostles that the LORD GOD could trust as HIS faithful servants ... and not Spiritually trust with non-Jewish Christians who tended to abuse (e.g. tongues) and glorify themselves instead of glorifying the LORD GOD.

 
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BCsenior

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I am more cautious in these last days. A certain set of believers really would have to be doing all things right according to the Word (both in doctrine and in living holy), and they would have to explain the verses really well on Partial Cessationism that I have. So far this has not happened yet. Most are unruly today and or they are tied in with some kind of false doctrine. I believe we are living in the last days, and there are few Christians out there who are doing things right (according to the Bible). Narrow is the way.
Okay, but all of these "somewhat hidden" NT verses have been there for 2000 years!
Understanding them back then is no different than understanding them now!
The difference back then was ...
basically all of those called to the 5-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11)
were baptized with the Holy Spirit (confirmed by some tongues),
which was simply a continuation of what the 12 + 120 + 3000 received in Acts 2.
Then, men who didn't receive it (for various reasons) took over ... and
they trashed this H. S. baptism and the 9 spiritual "power" gifts of 1 Cor 12
... for various reasons. Satan + man's flesh took over the churches.
 
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BCsenior

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Many evangelicals mistakenly teach that those nine supernatural Giftings of His Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) are no longer in operation today. So it's no mystery why the majority of Christians (evangelicals) have watered down the orginal meaning of "born again" (John 3:5-8). And in so doing have unknowingly corrupted the original intent of the Words of the LORD to His faith-filled servants (Luke 17:20-21).
I agree that cessationism is of the devil.
However, being born again is NOT what the "nine supernatural Giftings of His Spirit
(1 Corinthians 12:4-11)" are all about.

The prerequisites for having the 9 gifts are:
(1) being born again, (2) being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Without #2, the power of any of these 9 giftings is greatly diminished.
 
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BCsenior

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In Ephesians 4:5, Paul was speaking in light of the one baptism that truly matters (Which is Spirit baptism). Water baptism is just a picture or symbol of the real deal (Which is Spirit baptism). If Paul was referring to water baptism in Ephesians 4:5, then it would appear to be contradictory to his other statement that said he came not to baptize in 1 Corinthians 1:17. Yet, we know Paul baptized in Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7. In fact, this baptism by Paul in Acts of the Apostles 19 suggests a Spirit baptism and not a water baptism because Paul laid his hands on certain disciples in the upper coasts of Ephesus, and they received the Holy Ghost as a result of it.
Not to argue, but perhaps the most important baptism
is the one mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13,
where new believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Church.
 
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BCsenior

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All the OT saints were born from above by the Spirit of God, (Born again),
long before the cross.
If that had not been the case, the prophets could never have done the miracles they did.
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken!
The Holy Spirit did NOT come to indwell anyone until Jesus ascended to the Father.

None of the OT people were born-again (with the Holy Spirit INSIDE them).

The prophets and some kings experienced God's Spirit coming UPON them,
which anointed them for whatever reasons God had at the time.
(A couple of prophets rarely were mistaken when they said God's Spirit was INSIDE them.)
 
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BCsenior

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IMO, there is ONLY ONE confusing NT passage regarding ...
BACs who are baptized with the Holy Spirit ...vs... BACs who are not.

Mark 16:
15 Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe:
In My name they will cast out demons;
they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents;
and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;
they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.


Sure hope that verse 16 refers to water baptism ...
because some Pentecostals believe it refers to the H.S. Baptism!

IMO, Jesus was speaking of the future Day of Pentecost ... and the days beyond.
Back then, almost everyone was being baptized with the Holy Spirit,
beginning with the 12 disciples + the 120 + the 3000 (all in Acts 2).
The 3000 received what the others received on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-39).
The 3000 had all things in common with the apostles (Acts 2:44).

R.C. priests have cast out demons.
Haven't heard of anyone speaking in tongues w/o having the H.S. baptism.
Paul took up a serpent and survived, but he had the H.S. baptism.
Some Pentecostals have survived after drinking poison.
IMO, BACs w/o having the H.S. baptism can pray for the sick and see them recover.

So, where are we with all this? ... It seems to be about a 50-50 tie!

WHAT was Jesus talking about anyway?
 
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Francis Drake

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Before the cross Peter denied his teacher/master three times, but it was only after the Cross that Peter was truly Born Again from above.​
But this is not true either.
Peter was clearly born again before Jesus called him, just like all OT believers.
It made no difference to Peter's eternal salvation that he didn't have all the right theology of Jesus's sacrifice, or move in God's power.
Acts 3:6
But Peter said, "I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene-- walk!"​
Great quote, but not relevant to whether Peter was born again.
Today's denominational doctrines (divisive theologies) have watered down the true Spiritual nature and supernatural Giftings of His Holy Spirit. Spiritual Gifts that are still evident in those that are truly Spiritually Born Again from above.
Not so.
I move in the gifts and believe they are an essential part of our ongoing ministry in a fallen world. However possessing the gifts is not the demarcation of whether we are born again.
For BH to say that the twelve disciples were Born Again before the cross suggests that he believes Judas Iscariot was Born Again from above.
Nonsense.
Apart from Judas, the disciples, like all OT believers were born again.
Judas was simply there to fulfil God's purpose, that's all.
There is no indication that the twelve disciples (before the cross) believed that Yeshua/Jesus was their Lord and God.
Again, your bench mark for being born again is not scriptural.
The disciples clearly worshiped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah their creator, and that is what brings new birth.
It was only after His death on the Cross, His Resurrection, and the Jewish Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) that His remaining faithful Jewish Disciples were to become truly Born Again from above and Glorify the LORD GOD with supernatural signs and wonders as His faithful servants.
Again, not supported biblically. You are conflating two separate events, being born again, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Nowhere does Jesus indicate in his teaching that the disciples would have to wait for a future outpouring in order to get born again. Indeed, Jesus's words to Nicodemus make it clear the necessity of being born again as a "right now" issue, not sometime later!

John3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
New birth is clearly required in order to witness God's kingdom, yet there are many testimonies in the OT of people who saw the Kingdom of God. None of them would have been aware of Jesus's death on the cross.
 
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Is it possible that it's you that doesn't believe that Yeshua HaMashiach/Jesus the Christ is the physical manifestation of Father GOD Incarnate?
Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

The Father sent the Son to die for our sins and it was not the Father sending Himself (John 3:17). Yes, the Father abides in the Son, but the Son also is a unique person of the Godhead or Trinity. Jesus is the everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 not because He is the first person of the Godhead but because when believers are resurrected bodily one day on the "New Earth," they will be resurrected after Christ's likeness or DNA. In other words, the resurrection of Christ is what makes the resurrection of the bride of Christ possible. The bride will technically all be the offspring of Christ by His resurrection.

Do you believe in Modalism?
This is the view that there are no real distinctions among the Godhead or the Trinity, and God the Father just puts on a mask or plays different roles in the Triune Godhead. Is this what you believe? If so, you are not allowed to post in this section of the forums. Modalists do not truly believe in the Trinity.

You said:
The Triune nature of the GODhead is clearly evident in His Word ...
John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
________________________​
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

God being triune does not mean Jesus is God the Father. Jesus is uniquely the Son of God and He is not the Father. Yes, the Father lives inside of Him, too; But that is not the core essence of who Jesus is. For why would Jesus pray to the Father in the Garden if there are not distinct persons in the Godhead?

You said:
Your posts seem to imply that you may be suspect that someone displaying a "Messianic" faith icon as being less knowledgeable of His Word. jPerhaps it's you that may mistakenly believe that the supernatural Spiritual Gifts mentioned by Paul (1 Corinthians 12:1-11) ceased after the passing of the Apostle John and the ministry of the apostle Paul to the non-Jewish Gentiles ...
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—
(also see: 1 Corinthians 1:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1 and Galatians 1:1)​

Is it possible that non-Jewish cessationist Christians believe those Spiritual supernatural Gifts mentioned by Paul were only bestowed to a few Jewish Apostle/apostles that the LORD GOD could trust as HIS faithful servants ... and not Spiritually trust with non-Jewish Christians who tended to abuse (e.g. tongues) and glorify themselves instead of glorifying the LORD GOD.

This is not a refutation of Partial Cessationism - IMO. If you are interested, you are free to start your own thread so as to refute my Biblical points on Partial Cessationism anytime. Just check out my Biblical points in the following CF thread here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
 
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Not to argue, but perhaps the most important baptism
is the one mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:13,
where new believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Church.

I believe the Holy Spirit baptism happens today as per accepting Christ as one's Savior in most cases. In the New Testament, we sometimes read of how this was not the case, but there were different reasons for that - IMO. There is only one Spirit baptism. Water baptism is an external ordinance that is a picture or symbol of the real baptism (i.e. Spirit baptism). I believe water baptism is associated with John's baptism of repentance (Which is not the new baptism, i.e. the baptism into the Spirit). This most likely means that partaking water baptism is not essential to our fulfillment of righteousness under the New Covenant. However, we do need to be Spirit baptized in order to be saved. In the early church, the miraculous gifts were bestowed upon certain believers. Gifts are still today, but I do not believe they are miraculous gifts. But again, this is what I believe as being the most likely scenario or possibility and I am not declaring it as cold hard fact. Scripture teaches me that Partial Cessationism is true. But seeing I do not want to speak out against God (just in case I am wrong), I am leaving room that some may be operating by miraculous gifts in places of the world that are more secret or hidden.

Side Note:

I believe those who were not Spirit baptized right away were saved by abiding in Christ, but the receiving of the Spirit is the next step or stage in their salvation process. For us today, this should not normally be the issue. If a person receives the Lord, they receive the Spirit, as well.
 
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BCsenior

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BH, I believe I have asked you before ...

When have you seen someone receiving the Holy Spirit
(INSIDE while being born-again) ... and also speak in tongues?


The absence of tongues should prove to you that
receiving the Spirit while being born-again
is quite different that the second blessing
when the person speaks in tongues (as confirmation).
 
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Francis Drake

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I'm sorry, but you are mistaken!
On the contrary my friend, it is you who are mistakenly repeating church traditions.
The Holy Spirit did NOT come to indwell anyone until Jesus ascended to the Father.
Its nothing but a silly tradition that the Spirit was merely "over" them in the OT, but "indwelling" in the NT. usually proven by selective quotes.
We could however look at some contradictory quotes, proving the foolishness of making a doctrine on such little things.
Here we see that Ezekiel was "indwelt" by the Spirit in the OT.
Eze2v2As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me.
And again.
Eze3v24Then the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet. He spoke with me and said: “Go, shut yourself inside your house.

And of course, did the Spirit merely hover over Jesus or did it indwell him?
1“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

The above says the Spirit was merely upon Jesus, but we all know He was filled with the Spirit at his baptism.
As you see we cannot hang a doctrine on such words, or if we do, then the same rules must apply to all verses!
None of the OT people were born-again (with the Holy Spirit INSIDE them).
If you seriously believe that, then you are claiming that the OT scriptures were written and OT miracles performed by unregenerate men!
1Cor2v14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
This truth applies equally to the OT as to the NT. Without first being born from above, nobody since Adam could possibly accept the things of God, they would appear perpetually foolish to him.
The prophets and some kings experienced God's Spirit coming UPON them,
which anointed them for whatever reasons God had at the time.
Already disproven.
(A couple of prophets rarely were mistaken when they said God's Spirit was INSIDE them.)
So the prophets got it wrong?
That shows everyone where you are coming from.
 
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BH, I believe I have asked you before ...

When have you seen someone receiving the Holy Spirit
(INSIDE while being born-again) ... and also speak in tongues?


The absence of tongues should prove to you that
receiving the Spirit while being born-again
is quite different that the second blessing
when the person speaks in tongues (as confirmation).

We walk by faith and not by sight. The Bible is our authority and not our experiences.
 
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BCsenior

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We walk by faith and not by sight. The Bible is our authority and not our experiences.
Okay, I have proven via many NT verses
the difference between the 2 Spirit baptisms,
but you are still blind to the truth.
 
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AbbaLove

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Mark 16:
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

YES!, Mark 16:17-18 further defines the Spiritual Born Again meaning of "believe" as understood by a Spiritually Born Again Believer and as also implied by the Apostle John ...

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him
shall not perish but have eternal life.


James 2:1-25
(James reprimanding his Jewish brothers and sisters, "believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" for their lack of love and faith.)
verse 19 ... You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Sound familiar even among some of today's "seeker sensitive" believers ?
 
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AbbaLove

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Whether One Is "Born Again" Before the Cross Or After The Cross
Depends On One's NT Understanding of "Born Again"

My understanding of the Title of this Thread is not based on any particular denominational theology. The saying "Don't put two archaeologists in the same room" can also apply to denominational theologians (e.g. Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Adventist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF Movement, etc).

The MJ forum wouldn't be allowed at CF unless the administrators of these Christian forums believed that MJs are Christians. Members of the MJ forum were informed by CF that MJ members are "Christians" and have to agree with the Nicene Creed (trinity) in order to post on CF forums. IOW "Messianics" are Christian Believers, but their faith is NOT dependant on any particular denominational theology.

My belief (understanding) of the twelve disciples being Spiritually "Born Again" after the Cross (not before the Cross) is based on the following revelation from Jesus ...

John 7:39
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 14:16 (also *Counselor, *Helper, *Advocate, *Holy Spirit -- different translations)
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another *Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​







 
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