Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Oldmantook said:

Your reply is quite irrelevant. I never referred to his Replacement theology. Instead, I specifically cited his reference to the word eternity/aionion which never means forever. You never dealt with the topic of my citation itself and instead propose your red herring fallacy. Romans 11 plainly states that all Israel will be saved - meaning the Jews. I never meant it to be the Church as you incorrectly presumed. So the germane question is how will all the Jews who have since died from times past without Christ be saved? All Scripture must be reconciled with your doctrine and your doctrine fails in it's misinterpretation of aionion/aionios in this regard. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

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Your question on how the Jews of the past were saved without Christ was answered. I submit to you that your comments are therefore irrelevant.

Forever means FOREVER.

Eternal mean Forever.

Forever mean Eternal.

What is irrelevant is when we/you change the meanings of words to make your wish come true.

The Greek word 'Aionion' is said by some/YOU to never refer to things of an eternal nature. No scholars are necessary to prove them wrong.

In the following Universalist site ---> The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons. two statements are made ......……….

1). Neither is it true that if the eons end, the life of believers in Christ must end. Believers do receive eonian life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (1 Cor.15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Eonian life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore, believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (1 Cor.15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

2). In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of “the endless eons of eternity.” Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: “not,” “no not,” “un,” “less.” For example: “Of His kingdom there shall be no end” ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33); “endless life” akatalutou (Heb.7:16); “endless genealogies” aperantois (1 Tim.1:4); “nevermore” ou me eti (Rev.18:21-23).

The second statement is correct in that the Greek word 'ouk' expresses the meaning of 'not', 'never', 'endlessness.'

The first statement however is wrong and completely unscriptural in that it implies that there is something called 'eonion life', also called 'age during life', which guarantees life up to the end of the ages, at which point God will abolish death making death impossible after that. Now physical death will be abolished, but not the Second death. My point here is that there is no such thing as 'age during' life.

The believer does not have eonian life. The believer has ETERNAL LIFE, and he has it NOW. The Greek word 'Aionion' is properly translated as 'ETERNAL'.

Syllogism: God has eternal life. Jesus Christ is God. Therefore, Jesus Christ has eternal life.

Scripture:

1 John 1:2 'and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life (aionion zoen) , which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- The incarnation of Jesus Christ is in view here. He is also the source of life.

1 John 5:11 'And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life (aionion zoen), and this life is in His Son.

Jesus Christ has eternal (aionion) life. The believer has the same eternal life which is in Jesus Christ.

Syllogism: The believer has the same life which is in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has eternal (aionion) life. Therefore, the believer has eternal life.

Jesus Christ is God. He does not have 'eonion' or 'age during life'. Jesus Christ has eternal life. The believer has the same eternal life that Jesus Christ has.


1 John 5:12 'He who has the Son has the life (eternal life, not age-during life); he who does not have the Son does not (ouk) have the life.

As God, Jesus Christ has always existed. There never was a time when He did not exist. His life is eternal. Now, the believer receives this eternal life at the very moment he believes in Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:13 'These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have (echete - Present Active Indicative) eternal life.

That is, the tense is present (describing action taking place now), the voice is active (meaning that the verb's subject is acting and not being acted upon), and the mood is indicative (which demonstrates true reality). ---> Lesson 3

If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation, you have eternal life, and you are in possession of it NOW!!!. RIGHT NOW!!!

Because Jesus Christ has eternal life and not 'age during life', 'Aionion' is properly translated 'ETERNAL.' And the believer has that same eternal life as of the moment of faith in Christ Jesus. There is no such thing as 'eonian life' which is to be replaced by something else when the ages end.

While I included a link which explains the Present Active Indicative, No scholars are required to understand the meaning of aionion in the passages above. Only an understanding that Jesus Christ is God and therefore has eternal life, and that the believer has this same eternal life.


Now remember the second statement regarding the Greek word 'OUK'? ' Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: “not,” “no not,” “un,” “less.”

1 John 5:12b '...he who does not (ouk) have the Son does not (ouk) have the life .

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not (ouk opsetai )see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Opsetai means to see, to look upon, to perceive, to experience.

OUK means 'no', 'not', 'never'. It is a negative particle.

HELPS Word-studies
3756 ou – no ("not"). 3756 (ou) objectively negates a statement, "ruling it out as fact."
Strong's Greek: 3756. ??, (ou, ouk, ouch) -- not, no

Unless a person believes in Christ, he does not have eternal life. If he dies without having believed in Christ he will never have eternal life.

Ouk negates opsetai which is in the Future Indicative Middle. A person who dies without believing in Christ will not in the future see life.

Eternal life refers to being in the presence of God forever. The unbeliever while existing forever, has his existence away from the presence of God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. Existing forever in the lake of fire and having no relationship with God.



Read more: Is the Greek word Aionion properly translated as Eternal in the Bible? Yes!!! (incarnation, testimony) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Well my friends...…..it is 4:15 on a Sunday afternoon and I need to go to church and be there at 6.

I do hope that you all will be well and safe and I will be glad to talk with you tomarrow…...
IF I live that long.

Thnak God I am saved and that is not one of my worries in life.

Major1 said:

Is that why our jails are full?????

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Our jails are full because we're trying to solve drugs by putting people in jail. It doesn't work. Neither does ignoring people with drug problems. But we need interventions that don't make things worse.

Similarly with kids. You have to intervene, but if you've got a functioning family it doesn't have to be punishment. Unfortunately, we've lots of dysfunctional families.

Major1 said:

Correct!

There is really nothing here that we are talking about that is too hard to grasp.

INCORRECT on what we were taught. It is clear that you were taught at some liberal place of education which strayed away from the Word of God or you would not have such un-Biblical opinions.

Remember, YOU are responsible for what YOU know and even more responsible for what you falsely teach others.

I suggest to you that you begin to actually READ THE BIBLE as it is printed instead of what you were falsely taught at a liberal place of "higher" learning.

You said...…….
"FYI those outside in the lake of fire one day enter into the New Jerusalem."

But the Bible says in Rev. 21:8...…….
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

There is no possibility of sin.
There is no possibility of escape from the lake of fire.
The LOF is eternal and there is NO 3rd Resurrection.

The New Jerusalem is the habitation, the eternal home that is prepared for the church, the Bride of Christ".

Rev. 21:8 is the fulfillment of Eph. 5:25-26...………….
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word".

Rev. 21:26-27...…….
"And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

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I suggest you refrain from resorting to ad hominem attacks as it only serves to further weaken your credibility. Moreover, you cite scripture without even realizing that it undermines the very view you dearly cling to.
Rev 21:25-27 states "And its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."
From this passage we learn that the gates of the New Jerusalem are never shut and always left open.

Outside the city is the lake of fire where the unsaved are situated described in Rev 22:14-15.
14Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. (BLB)

The Berean Literal Bible has the correct translation as the word plynontes | πλύνοντες is a present tense participle translated as WASHING. Thus those who are washing their robes are doing so at the same time that those who are situated outside the city in the lake of fire. And since we know those who are inside the city have no need to be washing their robes, who else is it that are left to be washing their robes? The only people left who have not washed their robes are those situated in the lake of fire who are now washing their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and be able to enter the city by its gates which are always left open.
Based on these two passages, scripture interprets scripture which you fail to account for which leads to your belief in false doctrine.

I would like to explore this later, but I have supper cooking.

One of the things that is clear to me reading the record of the OT is that God deals with companies of people. There are companies as illustrations or examples that teach us that His Plan has more than one chapter. The most obvious is those 'believers' before the 'Church' age and during the Church age. In the end "all things will be summed up 'In Christ'". Different groups in different places and times with different parts to play in a wonderful story of redemption. I suspect that even after His Return, there are 'companies' to come into Him. And then on and on for ages enduring as natural living people born outside the gates are taught and brought up by the Saints into Him who fills all and all.
Paul spoke of His 'eternal purpose'. I believe this to be God's first and foremost desire to reproduce--to bear offspring with Christ being the first. There will be 'no end' to his government. The universe and everything in Creation speaks to us of His Nature and Plan.

Oldmantook said:

Outside the city is the lake of fire where the unsaved are situated described in Rev 22:14-15.
14Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. (BLB)

The Berean Literal Bible has the correct translation as the word plynontes | πλύνοντες is a present tense participle translated as WASHING. Thus those who are washing their robes are doing so at the same time that those who are situated outside the city in the lake of fire. And since we know those who are inside the city have no need to be washing their robes, who else is it that are left to be washing their robes? The only people left who have not washed their robes are those situated in the lake of fire who are now washing their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and be able to enter the city by its gates which are always left open.
Based on these two passages, scripture interprets scripture which you fail to account for which leads to your belief in false doctrine.

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This all assumes that the lake of fire is still there. The text says the dogs, etc, are outside the city. Nothing about the lake of fire. I don't think it clear that either the dogs or the lake are still around. We might need a 1st Cent Greek expert on this, but as far as I can tell from the lexicon, being outside the city simply means they're excluded from the city, not that they're necessarily still out there somewhere. They might well be excluded from the city because they've already been dealt with permanently in the lake.

I admit my reaction is personal, but the whole use of OT imagery is non-literal, so I think I'm allowed. The idea of a city out of which comes the river of life, whose gates are open so the nations can enter, this vision seems spoiled by having the pit of hell right outside. I mean mourning and crying and pain are gone. Sort of hard to reconcile with ongoing torment. My understanding is that when the first earth passed away, with the sea, that the lake went away too. Yeah, it's called eternal, but lots of things in the OT are eternal non-literally. (No, I don't want to redefine the word, but I do think it's used non-literally or perhaps as hyperbole.)

It's much more likely that the people who washed their robes in order to get into the city are normal Christians who were cleansed by Jesus' blood.

I find the idea of universalism in the Revelation implausible.

Major1 said:

Your question on how the Jews of the past were saved without Christ was answered. I submit to you that your comments are therefore irrelevant.

Forever means FOREVER.

Eternal mean Forever.

Forever mean Eternal.

What is irrelevant is when we/you change the meanings of words to make your wish come true.

The Greek word 'Aionion' is said by some/YOU to never refer to things of an eternal nature. No scholars are necessary to prove them wrong.

In the following Universalist site ---> The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons. two statements are made ......……….

1). Neither is it true that if the eons end, the life of believers in Christ must end. Believers do receive eonian life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (1 Cor.15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Eonian life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore, believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (1 Cor.15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

2). In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of “the endless eons of eternity.” Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: “not,” “no not,” “un,” “less.” For example: “Of His kingdom there shall be no end” ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33); “endless life” akatalutou (Heb.7:16); “endless genealogies” aperantois (1 Tim.1:4); “nevermore” ou me eti (Rev.18:21-23).

The second statement is correct in that the Greek word 'ouk' expresses the meaning of 'not', 'never', 'endlessness.'

The first statement however is wrong and completely unscriptural in that it implies that there is something called 'eonion life', also called 'age during life', which guarantees life up to the end of the ages, at which point God will abolish death making death impossible after that. Now physical death will be abolished, but not the Second death. My point here is that there is no such thing as 'age during' life.

The believer does not have eonian life. The believer has ETERNAL LIFE, and he has it NOW. The Greek word 'Aionion' is properly translated as 'ETERNAL'.

Syllogism: God has eternal life. Jesus Christ is God. Therefore, Jesus Christ has eternal life.

Scripture:

1 John 1:2 'and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life (aionion zoen) , which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- The incarnation of Jesus Christ is in view here. He is also the source of life.

1 John 5:11 'And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life (aionion zoen), and this life is in His Son.

Jesus Christ has eternal (aionion) life. The believer has the same eternal life which is in Jesus Christ.

Syllogism: The believer has the same life which is in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has eternal (aionion) life. Therefore, the believer has eternal life.

Jesus Christ is God. He does not have 'eonion' or 'age during life'. Jesus Christ has eternal life. The believer has the same eternal life that Jesus Christ has.


1 John 5:12 'He who has the Son has the life (eternal life, not age-during life); he who does not have the Son does not (ouk) have the life.

As God, Jesus Christ has always existed. There never was a time when He did not exist. His life is eternal. Now, the believer receives this eternal life at the very moment he believes in Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:13 'These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have (echete - Present Active Indicative) eternal life.

That is, the tense is present (describing action taking place now), the voice is active (meaning that the verb's subject is acting and not being acted upon), and the mood is indicative (which demonstrates true reality). ---> Lesson 3

If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation, you have eternal life, and you are in possession of it NOW!!!. RIGHT NOW!!!

Because Jesus Christ has eternal life and not 'age during life', 'Aionion' is properly translated 'ETERNAL.' And the believer has that same eternal life as of the moment of faith in Christ Jesus. There is no such thing as 'eonian life' which is to be replaced by something else when the ages end.

While I included a link which explains the Present Active Indicative, No scholars are required to understand the meaning of aionion in the passages above. Only an understanding that Jesus Christ is God and therefore has eternal life, and that the believer has this same eternal life.


Now remember the second statement regarding the Greek word 'OUK'? ' Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: “not,” “no not,” “un,” “less.”

1 John 5:12b '...he who does not (ouk) have the Son does not (ouk) have the life .

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not (ouk opsetai )see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Opsetai means to see, to look upon, to perceive, to experience.

OUK means 'no', 'not', 'never'. It is a negative particle.

HELPS Word-studies
3756 ou – no ("not"). 3756 (ou) objectively negates a statement, "ruling it out as fact."
Strong's Greek: 3756. ??, (ou, ouk, ouch) -- not, no

Unless a person believes in Christ, he does not have eternal life. If he dies without having believed in Christ he will never have eternal life.

Ouk negates opsetai which is in the Future Indicative Middle. A person who dies without believing in Christ will not in the future see life.

Eternal life refers to being in the presence of God forever. The unbeliever while existing forever, has his existence away from the presence of God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. Existing forever in the lake of fire and having no relationship with God.



Read more: Is the Greek word Aionion properly translated as Eternal in the Bible? Yes!!! (incarnation, testimony) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

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Hogwash. I already proved to you that eternal life never means forever.
You did not reply to my pointing out to you that "eternal" in Matt 25:46 can never mean eternal as the sheep-goat judgment references the Millennial Age of Christ's reign on the earth - not eternity. Why did you not respond in reply to my counter-reply? Is Matt 25:46 an inconvenient fact for you to wrestle with in light of what you believe??

Furthermore, Jesus himself taught that eternal life does not mean eternal. Jesus taught that "eternal" life is life in the Messianic Era i.e. his Millennial reign on earth. I suggest you study the passage where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit "eternal life." In his elaboration with his disciples, Jesus equated eternal life with the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as he uses these three terms interchangeably indicating that he is in fact referencing the same thing. Eternal life = Kingdom of God = Kingdom of Heaven.
It is well known that the Jews were expecting the Messiah to return and vanquish their enemies and set up his kingdom on the earth with the Messiah as their king bringing an era of peace. They understood this to be a limited age of time. Therefore in its proper context, the rich young ruler who was a Jew, meant eternal life to be life related to the Messianic era. And that is why Jesus referred to eternal life as life in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. Scripture interprets scripture which you fail to account for in order to cling to your belief.

I'm not commenting on the question of universalism. It seems far-fetched to see that in the Revelation, but it's definitely there in Paul and in one place in John.

However the idea of eternal torment bothers me for reasons other than the character of God (though that's bad enough). In Paul and the Rev, we have a great picture of God's final victory and everyone living in Christ.

1. The victory doesn't seem complete if we have a torture-chamber on the side.
2. The Rev talks about all pain being gone and all tears wiped away. How can that happen if many of our friends and family are in torment? Does our perspective change so we don't care? That seems more horrifying in its way than the torment itself.

hedrick said:

This all assumes that the lake of fire is still there. The text says the dogs, etc, are outside the city. Nothing about the lake of fire. I don't think it clear that either the dogs or the lake are still around. We might need a 1st Cent Greek expert on this, but as far as I can tell from the lexicon, being outside the city simply means they're excluded from the city, not that they're necessarily still out there somewhere. They might well be excluded from the city because they've already been dealt with permanently in the lake.

I admit my reaction is personal, but the whole use of OT imagery is non-literal, so I think I'm allowed. The idea of a city out of which comes the river of life, whose gates are open so the nations can enter, this vision seems spoiled by having the pit of hell right outside. I mean mourning and crying and pain are gone. Sort of hard to reconcile with ongoing torment. My understanding is that when the first earth passed away, with the sea, that the lake went away too. Yeah, it's called eternal, but lots of things in the OT are eternal non-literally. (No, I don't want to redefine the word, but I do think it's used non-literally or perhaps as hyperbole.)

It's much more likely that the people who washed their robes in order to get into the city are normal Christians who were cleansed by Jesus' blood.

I find the idea of universalism in the Revelation implausible.

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You are certainly free to believe whatever you believe. I have studied this subject for years which does not mean that I'm correct but have drawn my own conclusions. The lake of fire is referred to in scripture as "outer darkness." It is called outer darkness because it lies outside the New Jerusalem which possesses its own light - no need for the sun/moon. Thus the lake of fire is in outer darkness. As you pointed out, the dogs, etc. are outside the New Jerusalem. Since the dogs, sorcerers etc. are outside the city, they are in the lake of fire which is outer darkness.

hedrick said:

I'm not commenting on the question of universalism. It seems far-fetched to see that in the Revelation, but it's definitely there in Paul and in one place in John.

However the idea of eternal torment bothers me for reasons other than the character of God (though that's bad enough). In Paul and the Rev, we have a great picture of God's final victory and everyone living in Christ.

1. The victory doesn't seem complete if we have a torture-chamber on the side.
2. The Rev talks about all pain being gone and all tears wiped away. How can that happen if many of our friends and family are in torment? Does our perspective change so we don't care? That seems more horrifying in its way than the torment itself.

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I agree 100% with you and that is why I have questioned the view of eternal conscious torment which has prevailed in Christianity since Augustine tragically invented the idea. Let me propose this argument to you:
I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just, but the question is, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime has to willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with his victim. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

Reconciliation with God is impossible with the eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the annihilation view of hell as those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God.

Oldmantook said:

the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

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I agree with your moral argument. But there's no evidence that the author of the Revelation did. Even Paul, who I think envisioned universal reconciliation, used a different basis. (1) In Rom 6 he tells us that death ends sin. (2) In 1 Cor 15 it suggests that once the "powers" are destroyed, problems are solved. His most detailed account of judgement for ordinary Christians is 1 Cor 3:12. That suggests a purification, but it's not so clear that it involves the kind of repentance and reconciliation you're describing. I don't see NT support for post-mortem repentance, even though there's a kind of attraction to the idea.

Major1 said:

No wonder you can accept the false teaching of Universal with your obvious lack of Bible understanding.

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For sure, everybody is somebody's heretic. And personally I do admit you have Bible understanding, because I'm smart enough to see it. So it must just boil down to you maybe not understanding the bible as well as you think you do IMO. But, like me, you only understand it as well as you were taught?

May the Lord bless you my friend and open the door of understanding for you.

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I shared a bit of my testimony earlier. A testimony which confirms He did that very thing. But only after I quit worshiping the "false scribes" who went before the 'false teachers' of the orthodox church who indoctrinated me. I don't really blame them though, they thought they were right too, just like I did, and you do.

1st, of all, I DID NOT SAY that no one was saved until the GOSPEL. I in fact have NO opinions only the Word of God.

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Then we are in complete agreement, it appears.

Romans 4 and Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith in Romans 4:3...….
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”.

Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point in Gen. 15:6 this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given!

Paul then shows that David was also saved by faith in Romans 4:6-8, quoting Psalms 32:1-2.

Paul continues to establish that the Old Testament way of salvation was through faith alone. In Romans 4:23-24 he writes......
“The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.”

In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God—Abraham, David, and we all share the same way of salvation.

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Show me one OT verse where someone who wasn't first chosen by God's will, ever received grace.

And I agree that after Jesus died to reconcile and atone everyone in "the whole world", that you can receive Him and work out your salvation with fear and trembling on this side of glory, "saving yourselves from THIS WICKED GENERATION." But show me where your salvation on this side of glory keeps you from having to go through the purgative fires of God just like the believer in 1Cor 3. A man whose "foundation is Christ".

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Would you not agree the above person represents YOU and ME? Or are you going to say you have no iniquity or trespass or sin or deeds of lawlessness in your 'walk' at all?

In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday a Messiah. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord . Those who exercised such faith were saved. Today we look back on the life, death, and resurrection of the Savior and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ’s atonement for our sins.

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The only salvation they had to work for was in regard to the wicked generations they lived in. They went to heaven based upon being picked by God to be the 'chosen people'. They never did anything good enough to earn that, and they couldn't do anything bad enough to lose that. Same scenario now. If God isn't "drawing calling and ordaining you to believe in this age, it AIN'T HAPPENING. And that just makes God have a good plan of salvation for HIM. But it sure sucks for Almost ALL of the people who never could get saved for the last 10,000 years. And I believe that my 'GOD view' simply makes our omniscient GOD much greater than your omniscient God view does.

This is not brain surgery and no one should be having the kind of problems you are experiencing in understanding.

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I'd truly like to match 'brain accomplishments' with you starting in basic training until now but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't believe my testimony there compared to yours, any more than you believe my testimony for the truth now, compared to yours.

It is a simple statement of fact that those with a spirit of deception don't know they are deceived.
And therein is 'our' dilemma.

In fact, Romans 1 says that NATURE itself convicts men of a Creator and calls for a choice.

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Romans also says;
ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts,

So I guess there is hope for all. The question is just this; WHEN WILL THEIR FIRST CHANCE to HEAR HIM CALL come? There in lies a big disagreement.

I pray that HIS LIGHT shine brightly in the darkness WE both still have, looking through the dark glass of our understanding.

1CO 13:12 For now WE see through a glass, darkly; May OUR future understanding be BRIGHTER than it is now.

FineLinen--to be honest, I have no idea what it is that you are teaching. Even after reading this entire thread, I can't grok it.
Somewhere along the line some years ago I began to question (critically) just what I believed and how I came to believe it. I am a studier and voracious reader type person and had over time amassed all kinds of things--just like many of us. After a time of this sort of reflection, I came to the conclusion that the majority of what I had learned was unnecessary. Not to be discarded mind you, but rather taking a back seat to the simplicity of the Gospel and the work of Christ. The result within me and in my mind was that Grace, Mercy and Love loomed in importance and doctrinal differences that divide faded. One of those that disappeared off the radar was eternal torture. I realized that the Lord that I had walked with and come to know is incapable of such.
And just how that connects to the following and how His Plan works out, I simply don't know for sure, but I am comforted in knowing His Nature.
So there is that.
Then there is this.
The only remedy for death is Life and THE LIFE is God Life and God Life is in the Son.
There is no other means of Life than by being placed into the Son by the Father and that through Faith. Faith that is a gift of God. Grace. And that as a result of His Nature being Love.
This is all Him and His Plan. How He gets it done is His business and our unfathomable honor to grasp it in part for now.
He loves a sparrow. He loves the peoples that lived in the western hemisphere 2000 years ago.
Just how those peoples see Christ--I don't know. But I do believe they will or have.

I am the way, the truth and the life and none can come to the Father but by me.

That is the first scripture I heard resound in my heart. I was 18 years old and a seeker. I was studying eastern religions and such things. One day while standing outside waiting for a ride, I found myself looking up to heaven and crying out--"God, whoever you are, I want to be aligned with truth".
A couple minutes later a guy I knew from our HS came walking down the sidewalk toward me. He invited me over the next night to play guitars and sing songs. I did to find out it was a bible study--a bunch of Jesus Freaks. LOL
John was my friend's name--he read the above scripture and I heard the Lord speak to me as audible and clear as can be--"I am the Truth". He did not say, one of the truths.

Hillsage said:

OT verse where so

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bump!

FineLinen said:

Dear Huio: My doctrine is simple.

1. God's love never fails, EVER!

2. God is the Creator of the all/ ta panta & "the all" ends in Him.

3. God IS Fire; He is glorious beyond words!

His by His design

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1. Agree.

2. Agreed. The Lord Jesus Christ IS the person of Creation.

3. Not quite.

John 4:21-24...……...
"Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. "

This defines God's substance.

huiothesia said:

FineLinen--to be honest, I have no idea what it is that you are teaching. Even after reading this entire thread, I can't grok it.
Somewhere along the line some years ago I began to question (critically) just what I believed and how I came to believe it. I am a studier and voracious reader type person and had over time amassed all kinds of things--just like many of us. After a time of this sort of reflection, I came to the conclusion that the majority of what I had learned was unnecessary. Not to be discarded mind you, but rather taking a back seat to the simplicity of the Gospel and the work of Christ. The result within me and in my mind was that Grace, Mercy and Love loomed in importance and doctrinal differences that divide faded. One of those that disappeared off the radar was eternal torture. I realized that the Lord that I had walked with and come to know is incapable of such.
And just how that connects to the following and how His Plan works out, I simply don't know for sure, but I am comforted in knowing His Nature.
So there is that.
Then there is this.
The only remedy for death is Life and THE LIFE is God Life and God Life is in the Son.
There is no other means of Life than by being placed into the Son by the Father and that through Faith. Faith that is a gift of God. Grace. And that as a result of His Nature being Love.
This is all Him and His Plan. How He gets it done is His business and our unfathomable honor to grasp it in part for now.
He loves a sparrow. He loves the peoples that lived in the western hemisphere 2000 years ago.
Just how those peoples see Christ--I don't know. But I do believe they will or have.

I am the way, the truth and the life and none can come to the Father but by me.

That is the first scripture I heard resound in my heart. I was 18 years old and a seeker. I was studying eastern religions and such things. One day while standing outside waiting for a ride, I found myself looking up to heaven and crying out--"God, whoever you are, I want to be aligned with truth".
A couple minutes later a guy I knew from our HS came walking down the sidewalk toward me. He invited me over the next night to play guitars and sing songs. I did to find out it was a bible study--a bunch of Jesus Freaks. LOL
John was my friend's name--he read the above scripture and I heard the Lord speak to me as audible and clear as can be--"I am the Truth". He did not say, one of the truths.

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Welcome my friend.

What finelinen is teaching is "Universalism".

Universalism says that ALL people, including Satan and the demons will in the end be saved from the lake of fire. He has said that those in the Lake of Fire will be convicted of their sin and accept Christ and be saved because of the LOF.

The problem with this theology is that it completely removes the gospel from salvation.

Scripture says we are saved by FAITH in the lord Jesus Christ plus nothing.

Universalism says that those in the LOF will then accept Christ but that is NOT out of love for Christ but PAIN FROM THE TORMENTS OF THE LOF.

I don't know anything about all of that, but I do have a hard time with the notion that my Lord would consign any entity He created to an eternity of torture.

huiothesia said:

I don't know anything about all of that, but I do have a hard time with the notion that my Lord would consign any entity He created to an eternity of torture.

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I do as well. But do you have any problem accepting that the saved will in eternal bliss in heaven????

Isn't the same God who created heaven eternally the same God who created hell for Satan, his demons and all who follow him?

IMO, the doctrine of eternal torments have been forgotten in past 50 years or so and as a result we now have a generation who does not believe in it at all and have manufactured their own theology.

The real historical facts about The Eternal punishment of the wicked was taught among the earliest Christians.

In his Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, Ignatius of Antioch (110 AD) writes...
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him."

Clement of Alexandria (150 AD)in 2nd Clement 5:5 writes...…...
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment."

Irenaeus (189 AD), the Second Century Bishop of Lyon, adds in his work ......….
Against Heresies 4:28:2...…...
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever."

Similar statements can be found in works by Justin Martyr1, The Martyrdom of Polycarp2, Athenagoras3, Theophilus of Antioch4, Hippolytus5, Minucius Felix6, Cyprian7, and Cyril of Jerusalem8, and many others.

The Apostles Creed states...….
“He shall come to judge the living and the dead.”

The Nicene Creed adds that Christ will come "to judge the quick and the dead”.

The Athanasian Creed expounds even further, stating......
“From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.”
Covenant Theology: The Lost Doctrine of Eternal Hell