we are ALL PREDESTINED

sdowney717 said:

I sense you think God creates the universe, then lets it run on its own to see what will happen, sort of a universe experiment.

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You sense wrong. I'm not an open theist.

sdowney717 said:

Well God creates people that do sin and HE knows they can, will and do sin, so why do that?
If you design and then manufacturer defective engine components that you know will break under pressure, are you not then ultimately responsible? The engine maker knows some will last longer and some break sooner depending on their exposure to their environment (world), but knows they will all break eventually. I am not saying this is a good analogy because people make choices machined parts dont, but people make typical sinful choices when placed in circumstances that try them, so are somewhat machine like in their response to the environment they are placed into.

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People aren't machines under a free will system, but under deterministic Calvinism they are basically just machines doing exactly what they have been programmed to do. You analogy breaks down pretty quickly when you realize that God is the master mechanic offering to fix what is broken for the ones who accept it, under universal atonement. If I don't accept His offer of redemption, is God still responsible for my sin? But thanks for basically admitting that Calvinism makes God the author of all man's sin.

renniks said:

People aren't machines under a free will system, but under deterministic Calvinism they are basically just machines doing exactly what they have been programmed to do. You analogy breaks down pretty quickly when you realize that God is the master mechanic offering to fix what is broken for the ones who accept it, under universal atonement. If I don't accept His offer of redemption, is God still responsible for my sin? But thanks for basically admitting that Calvinism makes God the author of all man's sin.

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Thing is God creates all men and causes them to be born into a sin filled world. And yes they are all defective people, they all can and do sin, God made them be able to do that, but is not the direct cause, just an indirect cause, but yes He made them all the way they are having the inborn sinful nature.

But in the New creation, that new spirit can not sin and does not sin, it is actually impossible for it to sin.
If it could sin, then salvation would not be eternal life, because as soon as it sinned it would die.

Example is v9, if your doctrine does not allow for that perfection of the new creation in Christ, then your in serious error.

1 John 3:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

sdowney717 said:

Thing is God creates all men and causes them to be born into a sin filled world. And yes they are all defective people, they all can and do sin, God made them be able to do that, but is not the direct cause, just an indirect cause, but yes He made them all the way they are having the inborn sinful nature.

But in the New creation, that new spirit can not sin and does not sin, it is actually impossible for it to sin.
If it could sin, then salvation would not be eternal life, because as soon as it sinned it would die.

Example is v9, if your doctrine does not allow for that perfection of the new creation in Christ, then your in serious error.

1 John 3:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

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Whether Christians sin or not is a whole other topic. Of course all people are born capable of sinning, the point is that under your system most can not avoid sinning, and being eternally damned for it, not through their own choice, but because God chose damnation for them.

renniks said:

The lump of clay is Isreal, see Jeremiah 18. Yes, God endured with much suffering the disobedience of his people, so that he could bring salvation to the gentiles.

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]

When you actually read the whole passage, it becomes plain that what God prepared was the plan of salvation for all.

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Love the passages you quote, but you end it with opinion that is incorrect!

The clay is all of humanity not just Israel!

"18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."

He says o man- not Jew, and includes gentiles in verse 24. Careful; reading shows that this is including all mankind!

While 9-11 is focused on Israel and th epromises of god to Israel- it also includes mankind!

renniks said:

Well, until someone explains how there is any real world difference between ordaining all man's sins and causing all mans sin, which none of you have been able to do...

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If I MAY BUTT IN.

God neither ordained nor caused mans sin. He allowed it in His foreknowledge and will to work all things out to His glory.

nolidad said:

If I MAY BUTT IN.

God neither ordained nor caused mans sin. He allowed it in His foreknowledge and will to work all things out to His glory.

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Then you are an arminian. Because Calvinist theology says God ordains everything.
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.. Westminster confession chapter 3.

nolidad said:

Love the passages you quote, but you end it with opinion that is incorrect!

The clay is all of humanity not just Israel!

"18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."

He says o man- not Jew, and includes gentiles in verse 24. Careful; reading shows that this is including all mankind!

While 9-11 is focused on Israel and th epromises of god to Israel- it also includes mankind!

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I'm not sure what point you are making... it's plain that he endured Israels disobedience to bring salvation to all , as I said. yes, he says oh man but a careful reading makes it plain that he is talking to a hardened Jew. See Romans ch 3 for a parallel passage.

ajcarey said:

Why would your church not be Calvinistic when you are a Calvinist? Why have you compromised on your doctrine in being part of a church you don't agree with?

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Firsat off I am not a Calvinist- but a biblicist. Calvin did not make up these verses and snuck them into Scripture!

ajcarey said:

45 years teaching the Bible can just result in more time perfecting defending heresy against Biblical Truth. You have learned and taught people to interpret the Bible through Calvinistic glasses and the Scriptures themselves witness against you and prove that your ism is not Biblical. I don't know why your church tolerates this either since it's not even Calvinistic.

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I find your false accusation especially amusing! I had been teaching eternal security and predestination for over 18 years when someone told me I was a calvinist. I said I did not know HIs doctrine and had to buy His institutes of the Christian Religion to find out what He taught! So I was a biblicist long before I knew of Calvin and what He taught!

As for Scripture- I will stand before God and be vindicated- for His word shows HIs children are presdetined and eternally secure apart form any works they perform !

ajcarey said:

Your belief about sin being God's will makes the most heinous sins out to be God's will and that is indeed blasphemous. Not everything that happens is God's will and your supposed 45 years of Bible study ought to have taught you that. Have you never read Jeremiah 19:5 which so directly proves that all things that happen are not God's will? "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind"

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Well tehn you believe that Satan and man have wills above Gods Will! You do not understand the difference between what the theologians call the sovereign and provenient will of God. If you did you would not bear false witness against a child of God!

ajcarey said:

Of course no one can come to Christ without the drawing power of God. But that power is working on all men and men can indeed resist that. This "soteriological drawing" you are speaking of is just a made up Calvinist improvisational term because you cannot escape the fact over and over and over again in Scripture men do resist the Holy Spirit-

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Well then you call Jesus a liar- for if the Father draws all men to Christ- Jesus said all who come He will under no circumstances cast them out! but you say He will let some be cast away after the Father drew them to jesus!

ajcarey said:

Falling away is indeed a loss of salvation, it was not invented by the first century Judaizers, and it originates with Lucifer who fell away from the Lord by rebellion to His Government and thus secured his own damnation. It was taught by the Old Testament Prophets (Ezekiel chapter 18 for example), Jesus came not to destroy the Law nor the Prophets (Matthew 5:17-18), and thus Jesus and the Apostles preached about the possibility of such (as I already proved above). The 1st century Judaizers were actually offering people a false security through physical circumcision rather than through a living faith in Christ which is actually the intended purpose of the Law when it is used lawfully/rightfully. "5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

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Losing salvation is an armenian, luciferic and Judaizer lie straight from the pit of hell. It goes against Scripture and is the result of twisting the Scriptures so that one can boast of their good deeds as maintaining their salvation. And you need to read First century church History- the Judaizers were not offering securtity but despair!

ajcarey said:

To say that falling away is not a loss of salvation like you have said does indeed turn God's grace into a license for sin. "

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You bear false witness again! For if you bothered to follow my words here, you would not have written such a venomous lie!

ajcarey said:

Saying that God knew the fall of man before He created man is not the same as saying He created evil or that He deliberately willed that mankind fall. These are not the same and you keep trying to equate them as the same.

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God did not force man to fall as I have repeatedly siad!

As for God creating evil?

Take it up with God!

Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

ajcarey said:

You are wrong. There is no distinction between a living faith and a saving faith. A faith that isn't living is dead- and a dead faith obviously cannot save anyone.

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That is the Armenian apostasy speaking!

ajcarey said:

God isn't obligated to save Abraham's seed because of their lineage nor is He obligated to save us because of ours or because of anything about us which we might in our hearts uses as a substitute for faithful submission to Christ

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This is the most subtlest of all deceptions. You subsitute your faithful submission to christ as your salvation instead of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. YOu ignore th warnings ands teachings of Ephesians, Galatians, romans 7&8, Jesus himself, so you canmake God indebted to you because of your obedience. That is the opposite of what Scripture teaches, especially in :

Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

Galatians 2:16-21 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I do not promote sinning or living a reckless life atall. I just quote the truth of Scripture and exhort like Paul did:

Romans 5:15-21 King James Version (KJV)
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You need to repent of breaking the 8th commandment, as well as being presumptious.

renniks said:

Whether Christians sin or not is a whole other topic. Of course all people are born capable of sinning, the point is that under your system most can not avoid sinning, and being eternally damned for it, not through their own choice, but because God chose damnation for them.

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The point is there is a duality with saved people, they live is a body of flesh which is dead because of sin, but they have a new spirit on the inside created by God in holiness and righteousness and that spirit cannot and does not ever sin. In fact that new spirit is joined to God's Holy Spirit as one spirit with Him.
So it cannot sin because God cannot sin.
That does not mean we don't sin, but the part of us that sins is the old man of the flesh, not the new man of The Spirit.
That body is dying and dead and goes on to corruption, but the new spirit born of God, a new creation in Christ lives with God and has age enduring eternal life.
Once we are out of the old body and with Christ, someday on the Day of the Lord, we will be resurrected and be given a new entirely different body similar to the one He has now. We truly will at that time be made again in His image. as before the fall in Eden, both Adam and Eve He created in His image and God said it was very good what He had done.

Genesis 1
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

sdowney717 said:

The point is there is a duality with saved people, they live is a body of flesh which is dead because of sin, but they have a new spirit on the inside created by God in holiness and righteousness and that spirit cannot and does not ever sin. In fact that new spirit is joined to God's Holy Spirit as one spirit with Him.
So it cannot sin because God cannot sin.
That does not mean we don't sin, but the part of us that sins is the old man of the flesh, not the new man of The Spirit.
That body is dying and dead and goes on to corruption, but the new spirit born of God, a new creation in Christ lives with God and has age enduring eternal life.
Once we are out of the old body and with Christ, someday on the Day of the Lord, we will be resurrected and be given a new entirely different body similar to the one He has now. We truly will at that time be made again in His image. as before the fall in Eden, both Adam and Eve He created in His image and God said it was very good what He had done.

Genesis 1
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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True, unless we fall into disbelief. For example if we go back to depending on the law instead of Christ for salvation, Christ will be of no use to us, Romans 11: 19-22
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," 1Timothy 4:1

renniks said:

True, unless we fall into disbelief. For example if we go back to depending on the law instead of Christ for salvation, Christ will be of no use to us, Romans 11: 19-22
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," 1Timothy 4:1

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They departed the visible church because they were antichrists.
So they were false fake brethren.
At least they departed, some hang around and cause lots of mischief.
The ones that are true remain in faith and dont depart from Christ.
They are true because God has given to them an anointing to know the truth.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

nolidad said:

form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

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Context, context. This has nothing to do with God creating moral evil. It's about bringing judgement on a nation for their sins.

sdowney717 said:

They departed the visible church because they were antichrists.
So they were false fake brethren.
At least they departed, some hang around and cause lots of mischief.
The ones that are true remain in faith and dont depart from Christ.
They are true because God has given to them an anointing to know the truth.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

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I just love the way you all always leave out the verses that are inconvenient for your deterministic view.
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

I think if you look at this without your determinism lenses, you will see that remaining in Christ is conditional.

renniks said:

Well, until someone explains how there is any real world difference between ordaining all man's sins and causing all mans sin, which none of you have been able to do...

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And what makes you think this is what "Calvinists" believe?

God doesn't "order men's sins" any more than He "causes men to sin". So where do you get that this is what a "calvinist" believes; other than it's your own "logical" conclusion?

If you start out from the understanding that fallen man would not want God to begin with; "... there's none that understand, there's none that seek after God...." (Romans 3) Then and only then would you understand that those who become redeemed have to be predestine to that redemption. If they weren't; no one would become redeemed.

Adam started out in a probational position to make a choice. Once he made the choice to disobey; he forfeited the "freedom of will" for all his progeny. Yet it would not have mattered if any of us were Adam; because we would have done the same thing.

Why was the fall inevitable? Why didn't God create a universe where the fall couldn't happen? (This is actually a moot argument because it's not the reality we live in.)

Scripture says that God does all things to show forth the kind of Creator that He is. All things working for God's glory, isn't so God can look in the mirror and say "Gee, I'm so good!" He doesn't need to affirm Himself and He didn't need to create anything. He did it to demonstrate love.

Now how would God demonstrate love to a race of creatures who hate His guts and never would turn to Him if left to their own devices? If He would desire to redeem some; He'd have to be the causal agent that makes that happen; because they won't.

Now this gets into questions of "the knowledge of good and evil" that God obviously possessed before He created anything. Thus the resulting question becomes where did evil come from? If one were to develop a theory on this that does not blame God; it would explain why the fall was inevitable.

Here is my theory on how, what and why it happened:

Theory on the origin of evil

nolidad said:

Firsat off I am not a Calvinist- but a biblicist. Calvin did not make up these verses and snuck them into Scripture!

I find your false accusation especially amusing! I had been teaching eternal security and predestination for over 18 years when someone told me I was a calvinist. I said I did not know HIs doctrine and had to buy His institutes of the
Christian Religion to find out what He taught! So I was a biblicist long before I knew of Calvin and what He taught!

As for Scripture- I will stand before God and be vindicated- for His word shows HIs children are presdetined and eternally secure apart form any works they perform !

Well tehn you believe that Satan and man have wills above Gods Will! You do not understand the difference between what the theologians call the sovereign and provenient will of God. If you did you would not bear false witness against a child of God!

Well then you call Jesus a liar- for if the Father draws all men to Christ- Jesus said all who come He will under no circumstances cast them out! but you say He will let some be cast away after the Father drew them to jesus!

Losing salvation is an armenian, luciferic and Judaizer lie straight from the pit of hell. It goes against Scripture and is the result of twisting the Scriptures so that one can boast of their good deeds as maintaining their salvation. And you need to read First century church History- the Judaizers were not offering securtity but despair!

You bear false witness again! For if you bothered to follow my words here, you would not have written such a venomous lie!

God did not force man to fall as I have repeatedly siad!

As for God creating evil?

Take it up with God!

Isaiah 45:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.


That is the Armenian apostasy speaking!

This is the most subtlest of all deceptions. You subsitute your faithful submission to christ as your salvation instead of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. YOu ignore th warnings ands teachings of Ephesians, Galatians, romans 7&8, Jesus himself, so you canmake God indebted to you because of your obedience. That is the opposite of what Scripture teaches, especially in :

Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

Galatians 2:16-21 King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I do not promote sinning or living a reckless life atall. I just quote the truth of Scripture and exhort like Paul did:

Romans 5:15-21 King James Version (KJV)
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You need to repent of breaking the 8th commandment, as well as being presumptious.

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The Righterzpen said:

And what makes you think this is what "Calvinists" believe?

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Their own words from the Westminster confession, for starters.
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely , and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

Quotes by John Calvin:
Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.[1]

Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.[2]

The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.[3]

The will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.[4]

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining but he falls by his own fault.[6

James White:
“When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied… “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”[11]

Vincent Cheung:
“God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”[13]

John Piper:
“So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”[15]

Do you want me to go on?

The Righterzpen said:

God doesn't "order men's sins" any more than He "causes men to sin". So where do you get that this is what a "calvinist" believes; other than it's your own "logical" conclusion?

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Did you see the video I posted where the Calvinist screams that when God wants man to commit adultery, he orders him to?

The Righterzpen said:

Now how would God demonstrate love to a race of creatures who hate His guts and never would turn to Him if left to their own devices? If He would desire to redeem some; He'd have to be the causal agent that makes that happen; because they won't.

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No, he would have to offer a real choice, if he desires real love. If he was the total cause of turning their wills, how could that be love? It would be mental and spiritual rape. Yes, the Holy Spirits works in our conscious, yes, He convicts, but he is also resistible. That is the nature of love. Even Sting got that: "If you love someone set them free." Even hell, IMO, is God giving many exactly what they acted as if they wanted, separation from God. Also when Paul says no one follows God, you have to take it in context, he is quoting Psalms, which is about what fools do, it's not a universal comment. There are plenty of people in the Bible, even before Christ's coming that do good and are called good. Job comes to mind, for example. At any rate, Paul also says even nature itself points to God and Jesus says that all who seek will find.

The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on God.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
where there was nothing to dread.
God scattered the bones of those who attacked you;
you put them to shame, for God despised them.

6 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Footnotes:

renniks said:

Their own words from the Westminster confession, for starters.
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely , and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

Quotes by John Calvin:
Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.[1]

Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.[2]

The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.[3]

The will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.[4]

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining but he falls by his own fault.[6

James White:
“When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied… “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”[11]

Vincent Cheung:
“God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”[13]

John Piper:
“So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”[15]

Do you want me to go on?

Click to expand...

Your not going to resolve anything here. Scripture can not be broken.
No one is ignoring or leaving out inconvenient truths.
God gives us the desires of our heart, not to fulfill our fleshly lusts, but to fulfill his own purposes.
We are changed by Him, actually rewritten in our firmware.
In the NC relationship God does this, note Hebrews 8 v10.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The OC ways God did not do this.
People who deny God does this, are striving to live as if in an OC relationship of trying to please God by their deeds done in their own natural strength. They claim their faith is their own choice and ability, strength of mind, like claiming to have been better learners, God has little or nothing to do with the reason they believe when in truth Him being Lord God Almighty and what He did for you is the only reason you believe in Christ.

If God had not rewritten your being and put His laws into you heart and mind, you would still be like a wild beast following after Satan and fulfilling the lusts of your flesh, just as Ephesians 2 says, you were saved by His grace, and that is it.