Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, Rev 14:10-11 are the words of the third angel warning the nations (14:6) to repent. Rev 20:10 is about the devil, not the nations. They are mentioned in the preceding verse (20:9):

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Looks like the end for the nations...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Heaven comes to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and then...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honor into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified, so they can enter the City of God, since we're told:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more. Once they come inside through the open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and enter heaven purified to worship the Almighty, to be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3). Their worm dieth not.

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our role is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and ultimately: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)

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So....another happy universalist joins the party!

May I say to all reading our discussion that A good portion of Christianity is already on the road of being brought together under a false unity that excludes doctrine, so it is not surprising to see individuals drawn to false teachings.

Just so that we are all clear, Universalism teaches that all religions are worshipping the same God in different ways. This is what is known as syncretism.

Universalism also affirms that all people will be saved. Within this belief system the concepts of hell and punishment are rejected as inconsistent with a loving God. People often want to do away with a concept that they cannot understand.

There are many things in the Bible we cannot understand; we can’t really understand how God spoke and the universe leapt into existence! But this does not stop one from accepting the fact from one who was there and passed it on.

In the secular world the majority of people do not know how electricity works or why but they accept it in their everyday lives. What we can understand from the bible we can know is true therefore it is not a blind leap to accept the things we may not fully understand. The premise for all this is the authority of the Scriptures being God inspired.

Ask some questions and you will find that most of those spearheading this movement are committed to a liberal view point and do not hold to the infallibility or inerrancy of the Bible.

This is the ONLY WAY that Universalism can be propagated. !!!!!!

Again, make sure you all understand this fact right here...…….
When you adopt universalism you are denying the gospel. Then it makes no difference if Christ died for sin, we would do just fine with other religious systems without him. Their teaching is that Jesus only added another way to God equal to the many ways already there.

Those who accept what is also called the “Wider Mercy Doctrine” are ignoring the clear teaching of Jesus Christ who said to believe and follow Me. By accepting this they must also reject those who are true believers, that are His sheep who are led by the Shepherd who claim Jesus is the only way to know God.

The Universalist are people do not want to enter the fold by means of the door which is Christ, but want to allow for people to enter other ways (as if it is up to their broad minded view).

John 10:9-14 …….
“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”

Jesus himself said “if you enter ANY OTHER WAY you are a thief and a robber”.

He goes on to say “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.”

“I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.”

Jesus does not accept any other way, in fact He makes this exclusive statement of Himself in John 14:6:...…….
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Universalism

Major1 said:

Matt. 25:46......….
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

If ALL people are going to be saved.....then who and where are those people in Matt. 25:46?

If eternal (aionion) life is indeed eternal (aionion), then eternal (aionion) punishment is also eternal (aionion).

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Did I not use this very verse to refute your argument? Did you not read or comprehend it? Quite ironically, many employ this verse to demonstrate that punishment is everlasting when the context clearly indicates the exact opposite. The context is the sheep-goat judgment upon Christ's 2nd Coming and not the great white throne judgement after the Millennium. Thus the parallelism is clear. The sheep enter the millennial reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years. In parallel fashion the goats enter into judgment for the same period of time. Therefore it is impossible for aionion to be translated as "everlasting" in this verse. The time period referenced in the first clause is also true in second clause. Any questions?

Major1 said:

Mark 3:28-29 ……...
"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin".

Verse 28 says that all sins shall be forgiven. Then Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that "never has forgiveness."

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Incorrect. Eternal sin is correctly translated as "age-during" sin.
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)

Major1 said:

Yes, God can desire one thing and ordain another. For example, it is clear that God does not want people to sin, yet Acts 2:23 states, "this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God planned that Jesus go to the cross. But in order to do that, men had to sin for it to occur. Did God want them to sin? No, but it was part of God's ordained plan.

Likewise, Herod (Luke 23:11), Pilate (Luke 23:24) and the Jews (Luke 23:21) all sinned in their efforts that lead to Christ's death. Yet it says in Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur." It was not God's will that Herod, Pilate, and the Jews commit sin, but it was the will of God that this come to pass. God's ways are not ours. He is sovereign over all creation and can even use sinful men to accomplish His will.

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If it was God's ordained will for the above to occur then did it not occur? Of course it did! Thus using your same logic, since it is God's expressed will that all men be save then guess what? All will be saved.

Major1 said:

Consider Pharaoh. God told Moses to command Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 8:1), yet God says in Exodus 4:21, ". . . but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
Source----1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, and Universalism | CARM.org

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Of course God can harden a heart. But by the same taken if so, God can also soften a man's heart. God works a heart both ways - to his glory. Your problem is you acknowledge the former while neglecting the latter.

Major1 said:

God wants ALL men to be saved.....BUT ALL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED!!!!

I am going to make this Crystal clear for all who hold to the Un-Biblical teaching of Universalism.

1. It is very clear from the Scriptures that all may be saved.

2. It is very clear from the Scriptures that all will not be saved.

3. It is very clear from the Scriptures some will be saved whom we did not expect to be saved.

4. It is very clear from the Scriptures others will not be saved who expected to be saved.

5. It is very clear from the Scriptures that no-one will be saved except in God’s way.

6. It is very clear from the Scriptures that there will be more people in hell than in heaven.

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Your "crystal clear" assertion is "foggy." 1 Cor 15:
21For since death came by a man, so also by a man has come the resurrection of the dead. 22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power.
If the first clause be true, then the second clause is also true. If not, Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which is unscriptural. God eventually saves all, but each in his own order, according to ages of time - not eternity.

Major1 said:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).

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Are you familiar with the Greek? If you are, you should know that the Greek word for "find" in this verse is heuriskontes which is present tense participle.
For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it. (BLB)
Jesus stated that few are presently finding the gate that leads to life. He did not state that all will never one day find the narrow gate that leads to life. Pay attention to your Greek verb tenses.

Major1 said:

"For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

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Yes many are called to reign in the Millennial Age but few are chosen. The Apostle's Paul's goal was to attain to the exanastasis in Phil 3:10-11. He stated that he had not yet attained it. What do you suppose that means? I suggest you study it.

Major1 said:

"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

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Again, don't you pay attention to the verb tenses? "Few who are being saved" refers to those few being saved at the present time. This passage in no way makes any reference whatsoever to those who can or will be saved at a latter time.

Major1 said:

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

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Instead of proof-texting, read a couple of chapter later:
And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written: "The One delivering will come out of Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. (Rom 11:26)
Not just a remnant as you claim - but all saved.

Oldmantook said:

Are you familiar with the Greek? If you are, you should know that the Greek word for "find" in this verse is heuriskontes which is present tense participle.
For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it. (BLB)
Jesus stated that few are presently finding the gate that leads to life. He did not state that all will never one day find the narrow gate that leads to life. Pay attention to your Greek verb tenses.


Yes many are called to reign in the Millennial Age but few are chosen. The Apostle's Paul's goal was to attain to the exanastasis in Phil 3:10-11. He stated that he had not yet attained it. What do you suppose that means? I suggest you study it.


Again, don't you pay attention to the verb tenses? "Few who are being saved" refers to those few being saved at the present time. This passage in no way makes any reference whatsoever to those who can or will be saved at a latter time.


Instead of proof-texting, read a couple of chapter later:
And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written: "The One delivering will come out of Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. (Rom 11:26)
Not just a remnant as you claim - but all saved.

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Bless your sweet heart. You are certainly working hard to prove something that des not exist.

Simply put Paul says by grace through faith we are saved. You as a Universalists takes out the faith part to make it say by grace you are saved and nothing more. All the “whosoever will” passages become meaningless if everyone makes it in the end.

This philosophy becomes the very opposite practice of those who go beyond the gospel such as the aberrant groups and cults who add baptism and other works of obedience to be saved and often make it sometime in the future.

You as a Universalists subtract the Biblical conditions and necessary components and present a shell of the gospel and call it good news.

It ends up that the Universalists hold to the idea that those rejecting Jesus receive the same benefits as those who accept Him.

However Jesus said Mt. 7:13-15: ……..
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.” Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Jesus is not saying all will make it, not even many. He said at another time making it even clearer in Luke 13:24..........
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able”.

Strive has the concept to agonize to get in, in other words repentance is a key part of receiving eternal life.

Notice Jesus said-few who find it. Therefore not many get saved- certainly not all, but a few. So Jesus did not teach that all will be saved and did not even suggest it.

Oldmantook said:

Did I not use this very verse to refute your argument? Did you not read or comprehend it? Quite ironically, many employ this verse to demonstrate that punishment is everlasting when the context clearly indicates the exact opposite. The context is the sheep-goat judgment upon Christ's 2nd Coming and not the great white throne judgement after the Millennium. Thus the parallelism is clear. The sheep enter the millennial reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years. In parallel fashion the goats enter into judgment for the same period of time. Therefore it is impossible for aionion to be translated as "everlasting" in this verse. The time period referenced in the first clause is also true in second clause. Any questions?


Incorrect. Eternal sin is correctly translated as "age-during" sin.
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)


If it was God's ordained will for the above to occur then did it not occur? Of course it did! Thus using your same logic, since it is God's expressed will that all men be save then guess what? All will be saved.


Of course God can harden a heart. But by the same taken if so, God can also soften a man's heart. God works a heart both ways - to his glory. Your problem is you acknowledge the former while neglecting the latter.


Your "crystal clear" assertion is "foggy." 1 Cor 15:
21For since death came by a man, so also by a man has come the resurrection of the dead. 22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power.
If the first clause be true, then the second clause is also true. If not, Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which is unscriptural. God eventually saves all, but each in his own order, according to ages of time - not eternity.

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The Bible teaches that the gospel is NOT inclusive by content. It has certain qualifications, one must believe to be saved; this is repeated over and over again. No one is saved without their knowing; they are to make a decision.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, ………..
“I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. “And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Do you?

Do YOU? Notice it says who lives and believes, there is no second chance after they die.

Universalists often say it is unreasonable for a loving God to send people to a place of eternal torment. They believe that we suffer the consequences of sin in this life only; in the next life it ends and will all be erased.

Even Paul stated in Acts 13:4 to certain Jews...…..
“but since you reject it, (the gospel) and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Universalism teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the atonement of Christ because of grace yet they ignore any conditions of being a recipient of the atonement.

John the apostle writes in his gospel 1:11-12...…..
“but as many as receive him, to them he gave the right (power) to become children of God, to those who believe on his name.” If one does not receive him they are not children of God.

The idea that salvation is by grace without faith is their fatal misunderstanding- it is through faith.

Some Universalists believe that even Satan and all his demons will be reconciled to God and not be punished. DO YOU?????

Oldmantook said:

Did I not use this very verse to refute your argument? Did you not read or comprehend it? Quite ironically, many employ this verse to demonstrate that punishment is everlasting when the context clearly indicates the exact opposite. The context is the sheep-goat judgment upon Christ's 2nd Coming and not the great white throne judgement after the Millennium. Thus the parallelism is clear. The sheep enter the millennial reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years. In parallel fashion the goats enter into judgment for the same period of time. Therefore it is impossible for aionion to be translated as "everlasting" in this verse. The time period referenced in the first clause is also true in second clause. Any questions?


Incorrect. Eternal sin is correctly translated as "age-during" sin.
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)


If it was God's ordained will for the above to occur then did it not occur? Of course it did! Thus using your same logic, since it is God's expressed will that all men be save then guess what? All will be saved.


Of course God can harden a heart. But by the same taken if so, God can also soften a man's heart. God works a heart both ways - to his glory. Your problem is you acknowledge the former while neglecting the latter.


Your "crystal clear" assertion is "foggy." 1 Cor 15:
21For since death came by a man, so also by a man has come the resurrection of the dead. 22For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power.
If the first clause be true, then the second clause is also true. If not, Adam's transgression is greater than Christ's sacrifice which is unscriptural. God eventually saves all, but each in his own order, according to ages of time - not eternity.

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Source: Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament

Guilty of an eternal sin (ενοχος εστιν αιωνιου αμαρτηματος — enochos estin aiōniou hamartēmatos).

The genitive of the penalty occurs here with ενοχος — enochos In saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit (Mark 3:30) they had attributed to the devil the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is the unpardonable sin and it can be committed today by men who call the work of Christ the work of the devil, Nietzsche may be cited as an instance in point.

Those who hope for a second probation hereafter may ponder carefully how a soul that eternally sins in such an environment can ever repent. That is eternal punishment. The text here is αμαρτηματος — hamartēmatos (sin), not κρισεως — kriseōs (judgment), as the Textus Receptus has it.

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, Rev 14:10-11 are the words of the third angel warning the nations (14:6) to repent. Rev 20:10 is about the devil, not the nations. They are mentioned in the preceding verse (20:9):

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Looks like the end for the nations...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Heaven comes to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and then...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honor into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified, so they can enter the City of God, since we're told:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more. Once they come inside through the open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and enter heaven purified to worship the Almighty, to be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3). Their worm dieth not.

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our role is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and ultimately: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)

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There are no second chances for one to repentant after this life.

Mark 6:10-12 Jesus instructed you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. ………..
“And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!” So they went out and preached that people should repent.”

It’s quite simple, No repentance no salvation.

By promoting Universalism, you are removing the act of repentance from salvation.

Did Jesus say to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, or did He not??????

Is that an absolute true statement, or is it one in which you care to slice and dice and change to make it more acceptable?

Actually, IMO Satan wants everyone to be save, just not today. Tomarrow will be a good day. Next week would be even a better time.

Satan wants people not to be concerned about receiving Jesus now, there is always later.

But in 2 Corth. 6:3 we see...…..
”behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day of salvation".

Heb. 4:7...…..
“Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts”.

Salvation is always offered as a now proclamation. If one can wait for the after life to be saved, then what is being proposed is that they are wrong now, they will be right later. This means it does not matter what anyone believes or practices it will all be rectified later whether they agree with it or not.

That right there removes Jesus Christ as the ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED.

First, thank you for so deftly sidestepping the summary I gave of the plain narrative sense of the consummation of the ages as revealed in the final visions of John. I also recommend the last few chapters of Isaiah for confirmation of the prophecy therein fulfilled. But ask yourself how God's glory is served if Jesus fails in his mission is to save the world.

Major1 said:

May I say to all reading our discussion that A good portion of Christianity is already on the road of being brought together under a false unity that excludes doctrine, so it is not surprising to see individuals drawn to false teachings.

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Agree in part. There is a false unifying doctrine, chiefly in the form of penal substitutionary atonement and eternal damnation theory, and their handmaidens.

Major1 said:

Just so that we are all clear, Universalism teaches that all religions are worshipping the same God in different ways. This is what is known as syncretism.

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Disagree. Universalism teaches that all peoples WILL come to worship God in and through Christ, the one who gave it all to show his enemies they're done for - reconciliation is inescapable!

Major1 said:

Within this belief system the concepts of hell and punishment are rejected as inconsistent with a loving God. People often want to do away with a concept that they cannot understand.

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Agree in part. Hell is all too easy to understand, we just need to watch TV for the gory details (get rid of it!). Restoration is the object of the lake of fire, the sinner may experience pain and suffering in the process of separating the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, as the Great Physician's refining fire destroys the strongholds of satan reinforced over a lifetime. Does even man's system not recognise that justice is better served by the offender's true remorse and repentance, which is almost never achieved through retribution? And whose justice system is better, God's or man's?

Major1 said:

There are many things in the Bible we cannot understand; we can’t really understand how God spoke and the universe leapt into existence! But this does not stop one from accepting the fact from one who was there and passed it on.

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Agree. But we know that God's cosmos is scripturally described as flat, motionless and enclosed. Sadly, most prefer to trust in the false doctrines of man that describe a spinning ball hurtling through infinite space. Even the ancient pharisees got that bit right. Ye can discern the face of the sky and earth, but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.

Major1 said:

Ask some questions and you will find that most of those spearheading this movement are committed to a liberal view point and do not hold to the infallibility or inerrancy of the Bible.

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Disagree. But this would mean you're a biblical earther (flat, motionless, enclosed)! Good for you brother, cast down satan's counterfeit creation!

Major1 said:

When you adopt universalism you are denying the gospel.

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Disagree. The gospel is glad tidings of great joy for ALL mankind. Contrast the message 'Repent or burn in hell forever'. Great joy for all vs some burn in hell forever. Hm. You're not a hellfire club rep I hope.

Please show me where the apostles engaged in hellfire preaching.

As per above, all eventually return to God in and through Christ.

I know you'd like the gospel message to have the bite of Zeus' thunderbolts, but we're not in pagan idol territory. Jesus is meek and lowly of heart. God's heart is for the salvation and healing of all creation. And what will happen if the churches heed not his admonition to buy gold refined in fire? Well, it's shameful ejection from the wedding feast. So brother, I entreat you to avoid having your works burned up as stubble, and needing to be saved as through fire, numbered with the transgressors on Judgment Day to have to wash their robes in the lake.

Major1 said:

My observation of your theology is that you were exposed to some really false teaching as a young person that sounded good to you but is not correct.

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Actually you're quite wrong in your observation. I was born, baptized, confirmed wed and divorced in the church that brought the false doctrine about HELL to the world. But being a Catholic you ate everything put on the religious plate, for the most part. So, no I did not learn the true GOOD NEWS/GOSPEL until I was older. And when I was confronted with it, I was as incredulous as you that I had been misled all my life. So I studied this doctrine for 10 years. The early years were admittedly just hopeful that it could be true. Could God really be that loving, and that forgiving? Toward the end of those 10 years of being willing to let the Holy Spirit lead and guide and teach was much different than just being brainwashed as I was for the first two decades of my life.

YOU are saying and believing that eventually ALL people will repent and be saved.
However...………. the verse does not prove what the Universalists hope it does.
Can God be called the Savior of all men and yet not redeem all? Yes.

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You're right, it doesn't say they will repent Unlike you that 'realization' for me, was a 'lightbulb' revelation that the indoctrination I had received had holes in it. So I sought the leading of God to find the misleadings of those who've sold their freedom in the Holy Spirit to seek the truth and exchanged it for the indoctrination of 'a church' who disagreed with most of the 'whole church' the first five hundred years. A point I've quoted here for years with absolutely no rebuttal. But I digress, let us dissect your GREEK word which gets translated as WRATH. And that word is ORGE, the same word in English which describes the TRUE meaning of the ROOT word OREGOMAI from which the word ORGE is derived from.

1TI 4:10 ......….
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/malista of those who believe".

All people are, by nature, born under wrath (Eph. 2:3) and should go to hell. Why? Because God is holy and we are sinners. Yet, we have hope in Christ. The Christian is saved by faith (Eph. 2:8) and will join the Lord in heaven.

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I agree all are born under the ORGE or passion of God for every bit of His beloved creation whom He sent Jesus to die for....every single one "the whole world", as I proved last post.

But lets just take a deeper look at your WRATH word. I'll start with just the definition of your verses above. But then we're going to 'hold your breath' go deeper than you may have plumbed the depths of before. We're going to look at ORGE's literal Greek definition. A definition which is "desire or reaching forth or excitement of the mind." HMMM that sounds just like an ORGE I partook of in Saigon, in my BC...days after forsaking my birth church and chasing the devil for 4 years. Very successfully I might add, because I was so sick of 'the church' and it's theology and image/likeness of GOD, that I decided I would end up in HELL. And if I was going to end up there, then by God I was going to be worthy of it. So FEAR OF HELL was never a motivator for me to come to Jesus. Indeed I may have comer sooner if this doctrine from HELL hadn't driven me so far from ever hearing the gospel of salvation from Jesus.

Strong's definition; 3709 orge: prop. desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analalogy.) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment

So, as you can easily see your WRATH definition isn't even a literal, analogous or implication word definition above. So where in HELL do you think the word WRATH came from? I believe it was the carnal minded minds of indoctrinated men bound by the spirit of religion...and not the Holy Spirit. But where did that shortened word ORGE even come from in the GREEK language? You do have a Strong's GREEK HEBREW dictionary I hope. Because then you can easily look up the word in it TRUE implication.

Strongs 3713 oregomai: to stretch oneself, i.e. reach out after (long for)

And God "STRETCHING" Himself in 'reaching out after' his creation which He "(longs for)" absolutely puts every one of your ETERNAL HELL FIRE WRATHFUL God in a whole new light. And that new light, lines every one of those ORGE scriptures up with the God I love and serve.

1 Tim. 4:10 and universalism | CARM.org

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When I came to the Christian forums world some 15?? years ago, I'd never heard of CARM. So I went. Sorry, but any post recommending I go there now...falls on deaf ears. I've found too much error and complete ignorance to even consider it an unbiased site worthy of my time anymore. They accused us of believing so many things we don't even believe, that their disingenuousness bordered on diabolical deception IMO. But at least I went there to see if I was being misled. I pretty much don't find any on your side doing so with all the resources these threads have provided. Have YOU read much of the plethora of Fine Linen's URL sources? Your posts indicate to me that you do not.

But, the unbeliever is under judgment. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

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That verse fits my theology perfectly.

JOH 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.... 18 he who IS believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You simply don't understand the salvation that is spoken of here. IT says nothing about going to heaven or hell. Well I take that back, HADES is the grave according to Paul and pretty much every flesh bucket bodied "christian" for the last 2000 years has ended up as perishing flesh in those temporal graves. For such was the price of sins curse in the Garden...physical death. While their spirit returns to God and the Soul sleeps awaiting the judgment for things did in that sinful flesh body.

Why does God not simply destroy them as is His right?

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How can you not know? How many times have you been told here...why God isn't destroying everyone...along with all his creation... a creation which groans for the manifestations of the SONS OF GOD. A manifestation which has yet to be reached by any....even as Paul lamented never having attained that for which he had been obtained for. The HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST.

ROM 8:21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay (perishablitiy) ....and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I don't think this means cats and dogs are going to REPENT first.

Because of the Christians! Because God is being patient with the unbeliever, allowing them to enjoy the blessings of life in this world without the rightful condemnation of God falling upon them. This is what the Bible states:

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Not one verse to support your opinion. GOD SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE LOVES....sounds like judgment to me.

My the Lord bless you shine His countenance upon you.

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I receive that, and ask the same for you Major.

Major1 said:

Bless your sweet heart. You are certainly working hard to prove something that des not exist.

Simply put Paul says by grace through faith we are saved. You as a Universalists takes out the faith part to make it say by grace you are saved and nothing more. All the “whosoever will” passages become meaningless if everyone makes it in the end.

This philosophy becomes the very opposite practice of those who go beyond the gospel such as the aberrant groups and cults who add baptism and other works of obedience to be saved and often make it sometime in the future.

You as a Universalists subtract the Biblical conditions and necessary components and present a shell of the gospel and call it good news.

It ends up that the Universalists hold to the idea that those rejecting Jesus receive the same benefits as those who accept Him.

However Jesus said Mt. 7:13-15: ……..
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.” Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Jesus is not saying all will make it, not even many. He said at another time making it even clearer in Luke 13:24..........
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able”.

Strive has the concept to agonize to get in, in other words repentance is a key part of receiving eternal life.

Notice Jesus said-few who find it. Therefore not many get saved- certainly not all, but a few. So Jesus did not teach that all will be saved and did not even suggest it.

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It's obvious to me that you were not able to come up with a textual reply to my counter replies. Why is that as you must wrestle with the text itsellf (including the Greek grammar) in order to substantiate your doctrine rather than merely supplying your personal opinion. Moreover you understanding of universalism is superficial as apocastasis affirms that only the atoning blood of Jesus is the sufficient propitiation for sin. There is no other way - but God eventually saves in through chastisement in the lake of fire. And lastly I even replied to your last citation above already pointing out to you that Jesus did not say few find it. Instead he said few are FINDING (present tense participle) it. Jesus did not say they will not find it (salvation) in the future as you presume too much. The gospel still must be preached so people avoid the lake of fire in the first place.

Major1 said:

Source: Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament

Guilty of an eternal sin (ενοχος εστιν αιωνιου αμαρτηματος — enochos estin aiōniou hamartēmatos).

The genitive of the penalty occurs here with ενοχος — enochos In saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit (Mark 3:30) they had attributed to the devil the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is the unpardonable sin and it can be committed today by men who call the work of Christ the work of the devil, Nietzsche may be cited as an instance in point.

Those who hope for a second probation hereafter may ponder carefully how a soul that eternally sins in such an environment can ever repent. That is eternal punishment. The text here is αμαρτηματος — hamartēmatos (sin), not κρισεως — kriseōs (judgment), as the Textus Receptus has it.

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I see you rely on a commentary (one man's opinion) because you are unwilling or unable to deal with the text itself. Sorry but that is wholly insufficient.

FineLinen said:

Dear young man Oldman: Major1 does NOT rely on the opinion of A.T. Robertson, one of the finest Baptists to ever grace the globe.

Ask the Old Country Boy to tell us what A.T. Robertson writes regarding Rev. 5:13 & Romans 8:20?

A. T. Robertson Word Pictures=

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament Bible Commentary

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I went and looked. Surprise surprise, I found an interesting word in his Rev comments. It was that word ANTIPHONAL. And here, all along, I just thought you made that word up on your own. ..you Baptist plagiarist you.

Oldmantook said:

It's obvious to me that you were not able to come up with a textual reply to my counter replies. Why is that as you must wrestle with the text itsellf (including the Greek grammar) in order to substantiate your doctrine rather than merely supplying your personal opinion. Moreover you understanding of universalism is superficial as apocastasis affirms that only the atoning blood of Jesus is the sufficient propitiation for sin. There is no other way - but God eventually saves in through chastisement in the lake of fire. And lastly I even replied to your last citation above already pointing out to you that Jesus did not say few find it. Instead he said few are FINDING (present tense participle) it. Jesus did not say they will not find it (salvation) in the future as you presume too much. The gospel still must be preached so people avoid the lake of fire in the first place.

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All of your questions have been addressed. You did not like the answer so you keep aking the questions. I can not help you with that.

The Bible facts are that the "devil and his angels" will be in the LOF because Jesus said in Rev. 20:15...….
" but also all those men and women whose names are "not found written in the book of life".

And who are these?

Rev. 21:8...……...
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death".

Probably most "good people" would agree that "murderers, and harlot-mongers" deserve hell—but "the fearful, and unbelieving, . . . and all liars"? Would that not include just about everyone?

Oldmantook said:

I see you rely on a commentary (one man's opinion) because you are unwilling or unable to deal with the text itself. Sorry but that is wholly insufficient.

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And just whose opinion are you basing your theology on my friend?

I actually just used brother Robertson because he is just as you said.

Major1 said:

Deuteronomy 32:3–5 ………
For I will proclaim the name of the Lord; ascribe greatness to our God!
“The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children.

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I wouldn't want to stake very much on this. NRSV says "meaning of Heb uncertain." Translations are all over the map.

KJV:
They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children
NRSV
yet his degenerate children have dealt falsely with him,
NET
His people have been unfaithful to him; they have not acted like his children—this is their sin.

The thing is, verse 6 continues to call them his children. and the rest of the chapter talks about how God will deal with them, with the goal of restoring them.

hedrick said:

I wouldn't want to stake very much on this. NRSV says "meaning of Heb uncertain." Translations are all over the map.

KJV:
They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children
NRSV
yet his degenerate children have dealt falsely with him,
NET
His people have been unfaithful to him; they have not acted like his children—this is their sin.

The thing is, verse 6 continues to call them his children. and the rest of the chapter talks about how God will deal with them, with the goal of restoring them.

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It is the song of the ROCK you see. The word "Rock" is used 7 times in this song.

The Lord Jesus Christ is called the Rock.

He is the chief cornerstone of 1 Peter 2:6.

His work is perfect and this song exalts God because He is the God of Israel and of all creation.

God is the Father of ALL creation and all of mankind. When God created Adam, he was called a son of God, but Adam sinned. After that none of his offspring are called the sons of God unless they become sons of God by faith in Christ.

FineLinen said:

Dear Country Boy: You can put lipstick on your dogma, but it remains your dogma with lipstick upon it!

Friendly reminder #3: regarding your question as yet still unanswered =>>>>

Can you define the difference between our God the consuming Pur & and the Lake of Pur radiating with theion and theioo?

Our Father's sweet unchanging revelation requiring no lipstick=

"The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases; his mercies never come to an end, they are new every morning great is Your faithfulness."

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God’s holiness is the reason for His being a consuming fire, and it burns up anything unholy. The holiness of God is that part of His nature that most separates Him from sinful man. The godless, Isaiah writes, tremble before Him in Isaiah 64:6...………….. “Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

Isaiah answers this by saying that only the righteous can withstand the consuming fire of God’s wrath against sin, because sin is an offense to God’s holiness. But Isaiah also assures us that no amount of our own righteousness is sufficient.

Fortunately, God has provided the righteousness we need by sending Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of all who would ever believe in Him.

We need not fear the consuming fire of God’s wrath if we are covered by the purifying blood of Christ so that when God looks at us, He sees the blood of Christ.

You sure are active!!!! How do you find the time to be all over the place?????

As was told to you on another web site thread................

It is not the Lake of Theos, it is the Lake of Fire.

To demonstrate the Root Word Error:

Example of Root Word Fallacy in Greek:
The word "labour" is: kopiaō, literally means, "exhausting bodily effort"
The the root word is koptō, literally means, "to cut, strike, smite; to cut from, cut off; to beat one's breast for grief"

So when we read:
Ephesians 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labour, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

So is Paul is actually saying...
He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must cut off his own hands, which is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Or was he telling the thief to stop stealing from others, and begin to work to share with others.

Basing our theology on the root words, would have us believe Paul was telling us to make sure theives cut off their hands!

It is not the Lake of THEOS, it is the Lake of Fire and it is fueled by man's dead works and set ablaze by the judgment of Gehenn
(Our God= Fire)