we are ALL PREDESTINED

JIMINZ said:

So then in all of our debating the subject,
Who is able to Question Gods' ways?

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What Christian wouldn't agree to this? What the question really is, is this: What are God's ways?

Oscarr said:

The Bible says that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Some choose to go along with the Holy Spirit to develop their sanctification in that direction, and others don't.

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Seems not all are called?

Many are called few are chosen.

And then The Bible mentions that some have the devil as their father. These ones it seems were never headed for heaven?
M-Bob

Mountainmanbob said:

Seems not all are called?

Many are called few are chosen.

And then The Bible mentions that some have the devil as their father. These ones it seems were never headed for heaven?
M-Bob

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I think Saul of Tarsus hade the devil as his father, at least he was doing the devil's works. You belong to the one you serve...

lambofgod43985889 said:

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

maybe all these movements think they are right and the others religions lead to hell

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How does Calvinism teach what is will keep being the way it is?

("
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion")

Are you familiar with the Gospel? It says people can change. But ignoring that one kind of change, take a look at the meaning of predestination --all it means is that what happens was predestined. It doesn't even begin to mean we have already become what we will be, nor does it focus on "a destiny" as such, but that every step along the way is ordained by God.

I take it quite a bit further than most; I think it's logical to conclude that God "inhabits" (for lack of a better word) every minutest particle and form of energy and matter. Most surely, IMHO, he is in total control of every cause and effect. Nothing happens without his "say-so" (again, for lack of a better word).

Mountainmanbob said:

Seems not all are called?

Many are called few are chosen.

And then The Bible mentions that some have the devil as their father. These ones it seems were never headed for heaven?
M-Bob

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None of us were headed for heaven. But God had other plans for some of us.

Mark Quayle said:

I take it quite a bit further than most; I think it's logical to conclude that God "inhabits" (for lack of a better word) every minutest particle and form of energy and matter. Most surely, IMHO, he is in total control of every cause and effect. Nothing happens without his "say-so" (again, for lack of a better word).

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A funny thing then, God must have predestined me to not believe in that.

I think Christ was predestined, but have no reason to believe any one else is, it makes no sense.

One of the main if not the main reason we're here in this age is for God to see if we'll make the Grade to heaven, a boot camp so to speak. If we were predestined for heaven or hell, what's the point? None that I can think of. And that's not to even mention, predestination takes away free will to decide for ourselves we want to be a Christian, pretend to be a Christian or not be a Christian at all.

It completely ruins Gods plan, or doesn't fit together with it..

JIMINZ said:

Why Paul is speaking to the Church at Rome, which was predominately Gentile, he was explaining to them that our God is a Sovereign God, I believe God from the time of those statement from Paul about Him has not changed one wit, therefore to answer your question, YES, but while Paul did not directly address these verses to us, he is speaking to all Christians of all time, his statements were not time sensitive, there is no expiration date on Gods' being Sovereign.

Thanks for the comment.

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I think you missed Paul's point. I believe he is specifically speaking to a hardened Jew, asking why God would blame him for his hard heart, when God was using it to reach gentiles. He has been re telling the story of Israel's past to show how God worked through them to carry on the salvation plan. He doesn't suddenly shift gears with; "One of you will say to me: 21Then why does God still blame us? Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"
The clay is Israel, as seen in Jeremiah 18. Notice Paul doesn't say we don't have free will to resist. Just the opposite, he asked the objector who he is to talk back to God, something that is impossible if God overrules our minds and hearts. Paul makes the same points in Romans 3, with the same basic conclusion: justification is through faith, not the law.

God had a plan before the foundation of the world. That we would be holy and blameless and adopted as sons. (Rom..8:29, 30, Eph. 1:4,5), that's not my opinion, that is what Paul teaches about predestination.

Mountainmanbob said:

Seems not all are called?

Many are called few are chosen.

And then The Bible mentions that some have the devil as their father. These ones it seems were never headed for heaven?
M-Bob

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What is needed is an accurate exegesis surrounding that statement of Jesus. Before we can seek to apply it to modern unbelievers, we need to know who Jesus was speaking to, why He made the statement, and how His listeners understood what He was saying to them. Was He making the statement to the general crowd of people, or was it to a select group of people for a particular reason?

Once we have done that, we can apply hermeneutics to determine how the statement would apply to modern-day unbelievers, and whether it would support a doctrine of predestination where some are deliberately created to spend an eternity in hell. As part of that consideration, the nature and character of God needs to be taken into account; also how the statement corresponds with the gospel invitation that is open to all who would come to Jesus and receive Him as Saviour, and whether God would issue an invitation to those to whom He is not intending to respond to it. Then we need to determine the criteria in which God chooses souls for salvation and those He decides not to choose.

zoidar said:

A funny thing then, God must have predestined me to not believe in that.

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True that!

renniks said:

You have never seen awakened people who went back to their former un awakened state?

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I can say by my own experience that I never went back to my former unawakened state. And that was 30 plus years ago. Someone who "forsakes the faith" never had it.

renniks said:

in fact, the unforgivable sin is to resist to the point where one can no longer hear the Spirit's call.

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Not according to Scripture it isn't .

nolidad said:

You are incorrect as to what Scripture says!

Ephesians 1:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He chose (eklegomai)(aorist middle indicative) meaning He decided by Himself to elect us before He created us!

He also predestinated us (pro horizo mark out in advance )

Why did He do this? Is it because we maintained being good doobies? No! "according to the good pleasure of his will," He did it because it pleased HIm to do it!

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That is silly. If you just read the whole chapter and the whole book you will see that God chose those who believed in the Son to be holy and without blame before Him in love; this is the destination that all who would be faithful to God must strive to attain to- because God's promises in Christ are given to this very end! The idea that election or choosing applies to individuals is something that you and others read into passages like this when the passage says absolutely nothing about individuals being chosen before the foundation of the world to salvation or damnation. The same thought that is expressed in Ephesians 1:4-6 is expressed in other ways and from different angles in countless other verses.

Ephesians 5:25-27 "25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

This end goal requires diligent cooperation with God to arrive at, the process can be resisted, and the process can be interrupted in an individual and even never completed because of an individual's turning back on God (which can include believing in the delusion of Calvinism which denies the need for such diligent cooperation and continuance).

2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

The following warnings are to born-again, regenerated, (at the moment) elect in the Son Christians.

Ephesians 5:3-6 "3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

2 Peter 3:13-18 "13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

The Righterzpen said:

can say by my own experience that I never went back to my former unawakened state. And that was 30 plus years ago. Someone who "forsakes the faith" never had it.

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I wonder why there's so many verses that warn us about falling into false teachings and falling away, if it's impossible? In fact the normal proof text for those going out from us not being of us is about people who were false teachers when they went out. And is followed by a warning:
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

renniks said:

I wonder why there's so many verses that warn us about falling into false teachings and falling away, if it's impossible? In fact the normal proof text for those going out from us not being of us is about people who were false teachers when they went out. And is followed by a warning:
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

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If you prove by your own falling away that you did not have faith to begin with; this does not mean that you are beyond redemption. If you find yourself afraid that you will go to hell (and are throughly convinced and convicted of the fact that you deserve that); that is a good sign.

People who truly understand their worthiness of God's wrath; don't shake their fists at Him when they read about election. They start to pray: God, could I be lucky enough for that to be me! I really need You to save me, because if You don't; I'm screwed and I know it!

The Righterzpen said:

They start to pray: God, could I be lucky enough for that to be me! I really need You to save me, because if You don't; I'm screwed and I know it!

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This is absurd. If you are either predestined to damnation or redemption, praying could not possibly change anything. If however, salvation is offered to all, praying fervently availith much.

renniks said:

I think you missed Paul's point. I believe he is specifically speaking to a hardened Jew, asking why God would blame him for his hard heart, when God was using it to reach gentiles. He has been re telling the story of Israel's past to show how God worked through them to carry on the salvation plan. He doesn't suddenly shift gears with; "One of you will say to me: 21Then why does God still blame us? Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"
The clay is Israel, as seen in Jeremiah 18. Notice Paul doesn't say we don't have free will to resist. Just the opposite, he asked the objector who he is to talk back to God, something that is impossible if God overrules our minds and hearts. Paul makes the same points in Romans 3, with the same basic conclusion: justification is through faith, not the law.

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You as well as everyone else has missed the point, Romans 9 is about Gods' Sovereignty, He is God no matter what you might think or believe, He can and does do in this world as HE pleases and doesn't have to ask our permission to do it.

Oscarr said:

What is needed is an accurate exegesis surrounding that statement of Jesus. Before we can seek to apply it to modern unbelievers, we need to know who Jesus was speaking to, why He made the statement, and how His listeners understood what He was saying to them. Was He making the statement to the general crowd of people, or was it to a select group of people for a particular reason?

Once we have done that, we can apply hermeneutics to determine how the statement would apply to modern-day unbelievers, and whether it would support a doctrine of predestination where some are deliberately created to spend an eternity in hell. As part of that consideration, the nature and character of God needs to be taken into account; also how the statement corresponds with the gospel invitation that is open to all who would come to Jesus and receive Him as Saviour, and whether God would issue an invitation to those to whom He is not intending to respond to it. Then we need to determine the criteria in which God chooses souls for salvation and those He decides not to choose.

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We need all that but what we don't have from Jesus that we need an exegesis from, in ordet to apply a universal hermeneutic to so we can apply it to any who might be potentially saved.

There is such a better way to get to the heart of Rom. 8, Eph. 1 and other aspects of predestination.

renniks said:

This is absurd. If you are either predestined to damnation or redemption, praying could not possibly change anything. If however, salvation is offered to all, praying fervently availith much.

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DUH, the person doing the praying fervently has already acquired Redemption.

renniks said:

This is absurd. If you are either predestined to damnation or redemption, praying could not possibly change anything. If however, salvation is offered to all, praying fervently availith much.

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Yet if you have no idea if you are one of the elect; than praying is not absurd. So.... what makes you think the elect would automatically know that they are?