2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

claninja

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The witnesses in Christ must die biologically before they are judged righteous by the righteous judge in order to receive their crown of life and not before. The Preterists 70AD resurrection narrative and Hymenaeus and Philetus resurrection narrative are birds of the same feather and in this respect are false teachings for the itchy ears gospel. The emphasis of beholding the Lord's Appearing on that Day is when the Testator is presented before the risen glorified Lord as one of the Holy Ones that accompany him, within their sinless post mortem bodily resuscitated form, whatever that may be.

The partial preterist is still waiting for the Lord to come. Until then they believe the Christian dies and is judged and raised on the last day, at his coming, in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.

The Full preterist believes Christ came in 70 AD and that any one who dies in the Lord from now on is judged and raised in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.
 
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parousia70

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I believe that Christ's parousia to the New Testament Gentile Church Jerusalem is future at the advent of Christ removing the Tares within his Holy city. Do you see the picture or not, please stay focused on what is being discussed, because your effort to encourage me to respond to you has brought us here, thanks for this.

Before we go on, so I can stay laser focused, Just to clarify, do you say this group is or is not the “New Testament gentile Church”:

Acts 2:41
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Then that position arguably would not be a partial preterist position and there lies the contention that I have with you.
Preterism is an eschatology devoted to a 70AD resurrection and a 70AD second coming.
Without you having to misrepresent my post #42, my explanation of 2 Timothy 2:17-18 is exegetically sound and if you want to argue on the contrary, then please present your argument in a succinct manner to rebut it.
Please find my post link below -
2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

No, really! why?
The term "preterist" on its own is meaningless.

A partial preterist is someone who believes that some, but not all, the prophecies in the NT have been fulfilled. Many people on CF are partial preterists, as am I.

A full preterist is someone who believes that all the prophecies in the NT have been fulfilled. Full preterists are so totally unorthodox that they are not permitted to post their ideas in this forum.
And you appear to be reading a lot of things into 2 Timothy 2:17-18 that are simply not there.
Partial futurism and full futurism......some fulfilled and all fufilled.......glass empty/half empty or full/half full...................

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

The question I want to ask those Christian here on GT is how much of Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse do you view a fulfilled.

I hope I gave the right options and I am really hoping to get some input on others here on it. Thank you and God bless

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age" [Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]
==========================================

ToxicReboMan

Always Hungry for Truth

Great question! :)

I would have voted "mostly/partially fulfilled' but I instead voted "other". The reason being is that I think it would have been better to separate "mostly fulfilled" and "partially fulfilled" into separate choices. As I would have then voted "partially".

At the moment, my view on this topic is that only the beginning segment of Matt 24 could possibly already be fulfilled. And that doesn't mean that it necessarily has been fulfilled but I view it as highly possible. I am talking about the false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes which Christ spoke about. Considering that Jesus said that these were only the beginning of the birth pains and that more would come, it is possible that all the terrible things we see happening in our world could become much worse if these prophecies at the beginning of Matt 24 are yet to be fulfilled.

As for the rest of Matt 24:

Have all the nations heard about the Good News about the Kingdom?

According to verse 14 this has to happen first and then the end will come. I'm not sure that this has been completely fulfilled. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan are a few nations that come to mind. As I understand it is illegal to preach the Gospel in those countries. So perhaps not every corner of the earth has been able to hear the Good News.

A couple of other reasons on why I view much of Matt 24 as not yet fulfilled:

a) The sun hasn't been darkened. The moon still gives us light at night. The stars have not fallen from the sky. The powers of heaven have not been shaken.

b) Jesus Christ has not yet appeared in the heavens.


I don't claim to know. This is just my current understanding. I would like to understand the reasoning behind your position however. There seems to be plenty of verses in Matt 24 which appear to be still unfulfilled. What is your understanding on these verses?

If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The partial preterist is still waiting for the Lord to come. Until then they believe the Christian dies and is judged and raised on the last day, at his coming, in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.

The Full preterist believes Christ came in 70 AD and that any one who dies in the Lord from now on is judged and raised in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.
The Resurrection and bodily return of Christ is perhaps the 2 most hotly contested events within Christianity today. Being a Preterist, I naturally go to preterist sites concerning this topic.
1 could study decades on just the "hymenaeus resurrection heresy".
It seem there are a lot of "hyper preterists" amongst the search list.......interesting

search "resurrection already past hymenaeus preterism"

https://www.google.com/search?clien...QkpfkAhUKKa0KHbI5BZEQBQguKAA&biw=1366&bih=626

search "resurrection already past hymenaeus preterist archives"

https://www.google.com/search?clien....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0i67j0i10.iqt9fq7uvrQ

The Resurrection from the Dead | David Curtis | Preterist Archive

[article deleted by LLoJ]
 
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BABerean2

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The Resurrection from the Dead

By David Curtis

Philippians 3:11

We are going to spend our time this morning studying what the Bible teaches about the resurrection. Paul said in Philippians 3 that he had forsaken his own righteousness and trusted only and completely in Christ "in order that" he might attain the resurrection from the dead.

Philippians 3:11 (NASB) in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

What exactly did Paul mean by this? What is the resurrection? We will attempt to answer these questions this morning.

Let's begin by reviewing the context of this verse. The theme of Philippians 3:4-11 is justification by faith alone. The key verse in this section is:

Philippians 3:9 (NKJV) and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Paul sees only two kinds of righteousness: 1. Self-righteousness which leads to damnation. 2. God's righteousness given through faith which equals salvation. This is the righteousness that Paul wanted to have, that which comes by faith in Christ. This is speaking of justification by faith alone.

Two categories of believers are discussed: those who would die before the resurrection and those who would not. For those who died under the Old Covenant, He was the Resurrection, but for those who lived into the days of the New Covenant, He is the Life.

Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.
=======================


Since this is a Full-Preterist veiwpoint, you need to take it elsewhere.

If you do not know what it is, do not post it here.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Since this is a Full-Preterist veiwpoint, you need to take it elsewhere.
If you do not know what it is, do not post it here.

.
The bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead described in John 5:27-30 occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, as revealed by Revelation 11:18, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
It lies in the future.

.
And you keep mentioning Revelation 11:18 according to your view of Preterism.
What are you afraid of BAB?;)

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

Rev 11:18 - The nations were angry, and Your wrath came,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning some saying the resurrection has already happened?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.

become/γεγονέναι<1096>
Speech: Verb Parsing: Perfect Infinitive Active
ToServe said:
The witnesses in Christ must die biologically before they are judged righteous by the righteous judge in order to receive their crown of life and not before. The Preterists 70AD resurrection narrative and Hymenaeus and Philetus resurrection narrative are birds of the same feather and in this respect are false teachings for the itchy ears gospel. The emphasis of beholding the Lord's Appearing on that Day is when the Testator is presented before the risen glorified Lord as one of the Holy Ones that accompany him, within their sinless post mortem bodily resuscitated form, whatever that may be.
The partial preterist is still waiting for the Lord to come. Until then they believe the Christian dies and is judged and raised on the last day, at his coming, in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.

The Full preterist believes Christ came in 70 AD and that any one who dies in the Lord from now on is judged and raised in a spiritual body to forever be with the Lord in his kingdom.
Agree.
Now if we can just hit that sweet spot between Partial and Full Preterism, we just may be able to come to agreements in some areas against the Dispensationalists and Futurists.....
 
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Berean Tim

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Hi brinny.......welcome aboard...

Why would they have even think the resurrection had occurred in the first place? What was told to them to make them think it had occurred?

That is what is baffling me........

2Ti 2:18
who about the truth swerve, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting the of-some faith.


.
Full Preterist today say the resurrection is past. Paul was dealing with an early form of this error
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Full Preterist today say the resurrection is past. Paul was dealing with an early form of this error
Hello. I am between Partial and Full Preterism.
What I like to do is study ALL viewpoints relating to a subject/topic, especially from a Preterist point of view.

I keyed "preterist on 2 timothy 2:18 preterism" [not full preterism] and the link below is the first on the list...................

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=hp&ei=KPZeXdb5Doe2tQW-lpbwDQ&q=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&oq=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism

Hymenaeus, Philetus, Full Preterism, and 2 Timothy 2:17-18 | Facebook

Hymenaeus, Philetus, Full Preterism, and 2 Timothy 2:17-18
Mike Sullivan·Thursday, October 15, 2015·Reading time: 6 minutes
House Divided Bridging the Gap in Reformed Eschatology A Preterist Response to When Shall These Things Be?
Chapter Four: The Eschatological Madness of Mathison or How Can These Things Be?
What About Hymenaeus and Philetus 2 Timothy 2:17-18?
Michael J. Sullivan

2 Timothy 2:17–18
I recently received an email and phone call from an elder in a church who was secretly placed under church discipline and then excommunicated for studying the preterist view of Bible prophecy. He and his family were told that their salvation was in question unless they repented of studying (let alone holding to) this position. The source material that was used against them was When Shall These Things Be?, and the Bible text that was used to anathematize them was 2 Timothy 2:17–18. Apparently the eldership of the church did not see the irony. The editor of When Shall These Things Be? concedes that 2 Timothy 2:18 “cannot” be used even to “criticize” preterists, much less anathematize them, because according to Mathison, it may very well be that “the resurrection” of 2 Timothy 2:18 truly did take place in AD 70:
. . . [2 Timothy 2:1–18] cannot be used to criticize hyper-preterism until . . . [it can be] demonstrated from other texts that nothing of the sort occurred in A.D. 70. (194)
This is quite an admission from a man who says that hyper-preterism is “a much different religion” than Christianity (213).

What Bible verses can Mathison use, other than 2 Timothy 2:17–18, to brand preterism as a different religion? Answer: There are no other verses. Without 2 Timothy 2:17–18, Mathison doesn’t have a biblical leg to stand on in his condemnation of preterists.
All he has are the baseless words of those, like himself, who have set themselves up to condemn us based solely on the assumption that our rejection of futurism is a damnable error.

Partial Preterist Mr. Gary North, has said that if one side of the debate ceases to respond to the others arguments then the one who has responded last (thus silencing the other) in essence has won the debate (my paraphrase). He has also written of dispensational scholars and their inability to keep up with postmillennial works and critiques, “Like a former athlete who dies of a heart attack at age 52 from obesity and lack of exercise, so did dispensational theology depart from this earthly veil of tears.
Dispensational theologians got out of shape, and were totally unprepared for the killer marathon of 1988.” (Greg L. Bahnsen, Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., HOUSE DIVIDED THE BREAK-UPOF DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), Publishers Foreword, xx.). In the same book DeMar claims that “Any theological position divided against itself is laid waste” and “shall not stand” and is guilty of “Theological Schizophrenia” (Ibid. 349-350).

 
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Berean Tim

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Hello. I am between Partial and Full Preterism.
What I like to do is study ALL viewpoints relating to a subject/topic, especially from a Preterist point of view.
I keyed "preterist on 2 timothy 2:18 preterism" and the link below is the first on the list...................

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=hp&ei=KPZeXdb5Doe2tQW-lpbwDQ&q=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&oq=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism

Hymenaeus, Philetus, Full Preterism, and 2 Timothy 2:17-18 | Facebook

Hymenaeus, Philetus, Full Preterism, and 2 Timothy 2:17-18
Mike Sullivan·Thursday, October 15, 2015·Reading time: 6 minutes
House Divided Bridging the Gap in Reformed Eschatology A Preterist Response to When Shall These Things Be?
Chapter Four: The Eschatological Madness of Mathison or How Can These Things Be?
What About Hymenaeus and Philetus 2 Timothy 2:17-18?
Michael J. Sullivan

2 Timothy 2:17–18
I recently received an email and phone call from an elder in a church who was secretly placed under church discipline and then excommunicated for studying the preterist view of Bible prophecy. He and his family were told that their salvation was in question unless they repented of studying (let alone holding to) this position. The source material that was used against them was When Shall These Things Be?, and the Bible text that was used to anathematize them was 2 Timothy 2:17–18. Apparently the eldership of the church did not see the irony. The editor of When Shall These Things Be? concedes that 2 Timothy 2:18 “cannot” be used even to “criticize” preterists, much less anathematize them, because according to Mathison, it may very well be that “the resurrection” of 2 Timothy 2:18 truly did take place in AD 70:
. . . [2 Timothy 2:1–18] cannot be used to criticize hyper-preterism until . . . [it can be] demonstrated from other texts that nothing of the sort occurred in A.D. 70. (194)
This is quite an admission from a man who says that hyper-preterism is “a much different religion” than Christianity (213).

What Bible verses can Mathison use, other than 2 Timothy 2:17–18, to brand preterism as a different religion? Answer: There are no other verses. Without 2 Timothy 2:17–18, Mathison doesn’t have a biblical leg to stand on in his condemnation of preterists.
All he has are the baseless words of those, like himself, who have set themselves up to condemn us based solely on the assumption that our rejection of futurism is a damnable error.

Partial Preterist Mr. Gary North, has said that if one side of the debate ceases to respond to the others arguments then the one who has responded last (thus silencing the other) in essence has won the debate (my paraphrase). He has also written of dispensational scholars and their inability to keep up with postmillennial works and critiques, “Like a former athlete who dies of a heart attack at age 52 from obesity and lack of exercise, so did dispensational theology depart from this earthly veil of tears. Dispensational theologians got out of shape, and were totally unprepared for the killer marathon of 1988.” (Greg L. Bahnsen, Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., HOUSE DIVIDED THE BREAK-UPOF DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), Publishers Foreword, xx.). In the same book DeMar claims that “Any theological position divided against itself is laid waste” and “shall not stand” and is guilty of “Theological Schizophrenia” (Ibid. 349-350).
I too study all viewpoints and try to do it with an open mind. Full Preterism and it's other names saying (all) has been fulfilled including the resurrection in my view is false.
Be blessed in your studies
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Hello. I am between Partial and Full Preterism.
What I like to do is study ALL viewpoints relating to a subject/topic, especially from a Preterist point of view.
I keyed "preterist on 2 timothy 2:18 preterism" and the link below is the first on the list...................
I too study all viewpoints and try to do it with an open mind. Full Preterism and it's other names saying (all) has been fulfilled including the resurrection in my view is false.
Be blessed in your studies
Thank you and you also........

Rom 12:16
Be of the same mind
toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Acts 1:6 Restore Kingdom to Israel/10 KINGS One Mind Reve 17


One Mind (NKJV) Used only 1 time in OT
1Ch 12:38

All these men of war, who could keep ranks, came to Hebron with a loyal heart, to make David king over all Israel;
and all the rest of Israel were of one mind to make David king.

Acts 1:6
The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying, `Lord!, if in to-the time, this, you are restoring the Kingdom to Israel?'

Rev 17:
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
13 “These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
17 “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
 

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LittleLambofJesus

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Another site from google search:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=hp&ei=KPZeXdb5Doe2tQW-lpbwDQ&q=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&oq=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&gs_

"The Allurement of Hymenaen Preterism" by Jim West

*snip*

A fellow pastor of a Reformed congregation informs me that a recent visitor to his congregation was encouraged to sign the guest book. When the service was over and the congregation disbanded, he peered at the guest book and noted the signature of the visitor, followed by a most unusual appendage: his name followed by the word “preterist.”
The visitor could have saved the minister a lot of time from searching the dictionary for the meaning of the word had he signed his name “Hymenaeus” instead of “preterist.^_^

What is a “preterist?” And who was Hymenus? The word “preterist” is a grammatical term describing what is “past.” Thus, if our interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that most, if not all, the book is fulfilled, we would be “preterists.” Or, if our interpretation of the first 34 verses of Matthew 24 saw their fulfillment in the A. D. 70 coming of Christ, we would subscribe to the preterist interpretation.
However, in recent years a new expression of preterism has emerged that assigns the Second Coming or Parousia of Christ, the general Resurrection, and the Great White Throne Judgment to the past. In other words, there are no future prophetic events.
According to this scenario, time will continue on this terrestrial ball forever. Both sin and the earth are everlasting. At death the soul of the believer passes into the presence of God and the soul of the unbeliever (presumably) to judgment—both to be disembodied spirits forever. The advocates of these ideas call themselves “consistent preterists” over against the “inconsistent preterists,” who, it is claimed, fail to face the implications of their position. The so-called “consistent preterist” holds that the Second Coming of Christ occurred in A. D. 70, and that the resurrection occurred when Israel was spiritually quickened. Some “consistent preterists” will even claim to be Calvinistic in their soteriology. Consequently, Christians who truly love the doctrines of grace may be taken unawares. There will be the temptation to treat bygones as bygones, to minimize the colossal differences. This amalgamation-temptation threatens to compromise the historic creeds of the church, especially such vital Christian teachings as the resurrection.

Matthew 24

Jesus’ Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 highlights a Hymenaen interpretation versus a true, preterist interpretation. Our Lord com pletes the first part of His sermon with the famous “Time-Text,”—”Verily, verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.” The orthodox preterist interpretation is that everything that occurred before verse 34 saw its fulfillment in that generationthe contemporary generation of Jews. However, the Hymenns merge everything that occurs after verse 34 into the A.D. 70 spiritual coming of Christ. For example, Hymenns argue that even verse 36 is about A.D. 70, when Jesus states, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” The problems with this viewpoint are explained adequately by Marcellus Kik in his Eschatology of Victory, and the reader is urged to review his arguments. Echoing Kik, we affirm that the designated “that day” does not refer to the days of tribulation for Israel prior to the coming of the Romans. The reason is that “that day” had already been introduced by our Lord earlier, even as far back as the Sermon on the Mount. For example, the Lord tells us that not every one who says unto Him, “Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,” and that “many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Mt. 7:21-23). Earlier in Matthew, the Lord compared Israel’s judgment with some of the historic cities that were notable for wickedness. Christ preached, “But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment than for you.” And again, “But it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for thee” (verse 22, 24). Christ had already drilled the “that day of judgment” terminology into the heads of the disciples, which they would have understood as including Sodom and Tyre and Sidon on a day other than A.D. 70. Certainly Tyre and Sidon and Sodom were not judged in A.D. 70. In the Matthean account of the Olivet Discourse, “that day” is an explicit reference to the great day when God will judge all past, present, and future generations. Paul also in his sermon to the Greeks on Mars’ Hill preached “a day” that God will judge all men (Athenians included—not just Jews) by that Man Whom He has appointed (Ac. 17:31).

The best commentary on the “that day” terminology of verse 36 is both what follows verse 36 and what flows from verse 36 .
There are several parables that follow verse 36 , the Faithful Servant and Evil Servant (24:45-51), the Wise and Foolish Virgins (25:1-13), and the Talents (25:14-30). This string of Second Coming parables is capped off with the picture of the Son of Man judging the nations “when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory” (25:31). When he comes “all nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats” (25:2). Christ’s coming to judge all nations does not merely follow Matthew 24:36 in chronological sequence—it flows from it.

Interestingly, both dispensationalists and Hymenns have adopted an all-or-nothing approach:

the former interpret virtually every coming of Christ prophesied in the New Testament as the Second Coming;
the latter interpret every prophesied coming as Christ’s A.D. 70 spiritual coming. There are then dispensational eschatologists and dispensable eschatologists.

The Centrality of the Resurrection

The cardinal doctrine of the New Testament is the resurrection. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not raised up, our faith is vain, our preaching is vain, and we are of all men most miserable. Paul’s thrust is that a dead Christ cannot save and that the church cannot have communion with a Christ who is still in the throes of death. Christ was raised from the dead in order to justify us (Rom. 4:25). Most significantly, it was by Christ’s resurrection that He “was declared to be the Son of God with power. . .” (Rom. 1:4).

The resurrection is not only a blazing advertisement for the verity of Christianity, but the supreme attestation to the Deity of Christ Himself. If there is no resurrection, there is no Christianity. Scripture even teaches that salvation itself is a resurrection (Jn. 5:24). The purpose of Christ’s resurrection was to justify the whole man—body and soul.
Even the new birth is actually a metaphor for the resurrection instead of the resurrection a metaphor for the new birth.
Our labor is based on the bodily resurrection of Christ too. We are animated to work because of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:58). Our work ethic is not only the (proverbial) “Protestant Work Ethic,” but “the Resurrection Work Ethic.” This is why we abound in the work of the Lord. Our very redemption is portrayed as the redemption of our bodies (Rom. 8:23).

What about Hymenaeus?

The “consistent preterists” (as they charitably define themselves) deal with the resurrection in a manner that parallels two apostolic personalities. We refer to Hymenus and Philetus, whom Paul names in 2 Timothy 2:17. These men were apparently church members (they “named the name of Christ”— verse 17.). They were resurrection preterists and probably preterists in regard to the Second Coming of Christ, too. Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:18 about their belief that “the resurrection is already past.” How could they have been afforded some prestige in the church?

Pauls Assessment of Hymenaen Theology

How then should we treat those who embrace Hymennism and yet claim to wear the badge of Christianity? We must look to Paul’s charge to Timothy. Paul tells us that the Hymenns have “erred with respect to the truth” (2 Tim. 2:18). Erring with regard to the truth means that we have erred about the “truth of the Gospel.”
His description of the Hymenns is not that they have erred with respect to one truth among many Gospel truths. On the contrary, their error is a capital error; the whole truth has been denied.

Their preterist resurrection theology has overthrown the faith of some. This is a powerful indictment. Not merely the faith by which we believe, but The Faith that we believe is defeated, destroyed.

The teachings of the Hymenns are labeled a “canker,” a gangrene, perhaps a cancer. The Greek word could be a medical word or a word describing oxidation. If the former, then, the church is compared to a living organism. A malignancy or a gangrene can only destroy this organism! Hymenn theology is a cancer in the living organism of the church.

Hymenns also make “shipwreck” of the Faith (1 Tim. 1:19). The shipwreck is a religious shipwreck. Hymennism is not a mere pinhole in the hull of the good ship salvation.

The upshot is that we should not be referring to the disciples of Hymenus as “beloved brethren,” as “good friends,” as “dear Christian brethren.” They are the enemies of Christ and the enemies of the church. The “sons of the resurrection” should not be taken unawares. Hymenns who are members in Christian churches should be disciplined for their error, even delivered over to Satan so that they would not blaspheme (1 Tim. 1:20).

If a church unwittingly carries Hymenn books (such as the Leonards’ The Promise of His Coming, or J. Stuart Russell’s The Parousia), these books should be torched or removed immediately. No church should pray God’s speed on the disciples of Hymenaeus. If a church has Hymenn members, let her admonish or rebuke these subverters at once. We dare not give them the Lord’s Supper. We must not let them get away with calling themselves “preterists” or “consistent preterists,” or believers in “fulfilled eschatology.”

The word “preterist” is a good word. The disciples of Hymenus are not preterists; their “dispensable eschatology” makes them heretics. What is more, they are antichrists; for only the spirit of antichrist says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh (1 Jn. 4 ff).
When we interview new members, we need to question them about Christ’s resurrection and ours. Hymenns are not our friends; they are the enemies of the cross. If we deny the future resurrection of the body then we deny the resurrection of Christ. And if we deny the resurrection of Christ’s flesh, then we deny his accomplishment on the cross.
The design of Christ’s bodily resurrection was to implement His sacrifice on the cross, when He suffered the wrath of God in his body and in his soul. He came to redeem us in body and in soul (Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 6:20).

Hymenaenism is damnable heresy.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=hp&ei=KPZeXdb5Doe2tQW-lpbwDQ&q=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&oq=preterist+on+2+timothy+2:18+preterism&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1636.23295..24288...2.0..0.152.3490.32j7......0....1..gws-wiz.......0j0i131j35i39j0i20i263j0i22i30j33i22i29i30j33i299j33i160.WawQhxYybcY&ved=0ahUKEwjWrb78o5fkAhUHW60KHT6LBd4Q4dUDCAc&uact=5

Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure
Martyn McGeown

Contents
I. Introduction
II. Diagnosis: Gangrene!
III. Prognosis
IV. Cure
V. Conclusion


I. Introduction

The Apostle Paul warns in II Timothy 2:17-18 of two false teachers in the church at Ephesus. These two heretics, Hymenaeus and Philetus, were preterists. They taught that the great eschatological event of the resurrection of the dead was past already. In doing this they overthrew the faith of some in the church (v. 18). Paul warns Timothy that heresy, and this preterist heresy in particular, would eat "as doth a canker" (v. 17). The word "canker" means gangrene. The warning is clear. Heresy spreads. It spreads like gangrene, the death of body tissues resulting in black, putrefying, foul-smelling flesh. Gangrene untreated spreads along the affected limb and leads to the death of the body. Usually the only remedy is amputation of the diseased area.

Preterism is the heresy which maintains that most or all of the eschatological events prophesied in Scripture have been fulfilled already in the past. Postmillennialists, who envisage a "Golden Age" for the Church in which the world is Christianised, consign the New Testament prophecies concerning the Great Tribulation and persecution of the Church, the fearful and widespread apostasy from the truth, and the rise of Antichrist to the past. These events were fulfilled, say the postmillennialists, in A.D. 70 when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Romans. Some are moderate, partial or inconsistent preterists. Full, extreme, consistent or hyper-preterists relegate not only those prophecies to the past, but they also teach that all New Testament prophecy, including the resurrection of the dead (which they, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, spiritualise), the final judgment and even the Second Advent of Jesus Christ occurred in A.D. 70. There is therefore no future coming of Christ at the end of the world. We are already in the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells (II Peter 3:13). This world will probably go on forever, or, if it does not last eternally, the Bible has nothing to tell us about the future.

How are preterism and gangrene related? This paper will expose the preterism of modern postmillennialists, especially the Reconstructionists. We will concentrate our attention on the Reconstructionist movement because the men of that movement are the most prolific authors in the Postmillennial camp and the most vocal opponents of Reformed Amillennialism, which they deride as pessimistic eschatology or "pessimillennnialism." Representative figures in that movement are Gary North, Gary DeMar, Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., and David Chilton. This paper will argue that their preterism is spreading like a gangrene through the body of Reformed truth, devouring vital doctrines and key texts, leading eventually and inexorably to full-blown hyper-preterism. For now modern postmillennialists are resisting hyper-preterism1 but this paper will contend that eventually their system must collapse under its own inconsistency. It must succumb to the gangrene of the Philetian and Hymenaean heresy.

V. Conclusion
It is revealing that the Holy Spirit uses the word "gangrene" to describe heresy in general, and preterism in particular. Gangrene means the putrefaction of tissues. It causes death of the flesh making in turn black and emit a revolting stench. It causes the tissues to swell, and if untreated causes septicaemia and finally death. Gangrene spreads rapidly to the nearby tissues, destroying them also. It should be treated as a medical emergency. Heresy is the same. It, too, is a stench in God’s nostrils, and offensive to the Christian who loves Christ and His truth. It spreads rapidly through the body of the church, poisoning and killing members and sometimes destroying whole congregations and denominations. The Scriptures are replete with warnings concerning the spread of heresy.

We have demonstrated that Postmillennial Reconstructionists are preterists. Gentry classifies himself a preterist, albeit an "orthodox" one.112 The champions of postmillennial Reconstructionism all teach that Antichrist, the Great Tribulation and the Great Apostasy occurred in the past. Therefore the Church, unencumbered by any threat of a future Antichrist, a shrinking Church and widespread persecution, must be busy christianising the world and bringing about a carnal kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth. The gangrene of preterism begins there. Crucial eschatological chapters (Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2 and most of the book of Revelation) are swallowed up in this way. We saw as well how key texts, which have traditionally been used to prove the Second Advent, no longer do so as preterism eats them like a canker. We have demonstrated the inconsistency of the preterist and argued how other texts may be "preterized" as the gangrene spreads inexorably up the limbs of Postmillennial Reconstructionism.

The question must be asked: given that most of the eschatological texts have been devoured by the preterist gangrene, what is there to stop the men of Postmillennial Reconstructionism from adopting full-blown preterism? We appreciate the fact that a future Second Advent still occupies a place in their theology, but after "preterizing" most of the New Testament, where will they find Biblical evidence to support this eschatology? Principles work through. How many generations will it take before the Reconstructionist movement, whose champion David Chilton happily informs us that the Second Advent is probably hundreds of thousands of years in the future; whose champion Gary North argues that the prayer "Come quickly, Lord Jesus" is inappropriate for today’s Christians; and whose champion Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., extols the book of hyper-preterist J. Stuart Russell as "masterfully written," will adopt full-blown preterism’s denial of a future Second Advent, a final judgment and a bodily resurrection of all men?

Let us beware of the preterist gangrene. It is spreading in reputedly Reformed churches. It is tolerated or even promoted by influential men. Reformed ministers must repudiate it and warn their people against it. At the first sign of the disease Reformed elders must act swiftly to eradicate it. Preterists must be disciplined, for their own sake and for the sake of the Reformed body, lest they overthrow the faith and the hope of the Church. That hope is the certain, future, promised Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The Christian hope is not the postmillennial dream. We do not have our hearts set on a Christianised world. Our hearts are set only on the Second Coming of Christ. We echo the words of the Belgic Confession 37: "Therefore we expect that great day with a most ardent desire to the end that we may fully enjoy the promises of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Even, so, come Lord Jesus, come quickly!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
The Resurrection from the Dead

By David Curtis
Philippians 3:11
Since this is a Full-Preterist veiwpoint, you need to take it elsewhere.

If you do not know what it is, do not post it here.

.
I just saw that David Curtis is indeed a full preterist.
Therefore, I am deleting the article by him on Post # 64

I may start a thread on the CT board and include all preterists, including full preterist, views on 2 Timothy 2:18. I will provide a link to the new thread on this board in case any non preterist futurists are interested........
[I also have other threads on that board. Just click on my avatar and click on my threads]
Controversial Christian Theology
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I just saw that David Curtis is indeed a full preterist.
Therefore, I am deleting the article by him on Post # 64

I may start a thread on the CT board and include all preterists, including full preterist, views on 2 Timothy 2:18. I will provide a link to the new thread on this board in case any non preterist futurists are interested........
[I also have other threads on that board. Just click on my avatar and click on my threads]
Controversial Christian Theology
Here is the link to my new thread on the CT board where ALL views will be shown.......

Controversial Christian Theology

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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This event in Matt 27 is a resurrection that theologians still talk about today.

Do a googles search on Matt 27:51-53 to see the various views on it.....

https://www.google.com/search?clien...i30j0i13j0i13i30j0i13i5i30j33i160.OP7K2q-aYhk

What happened to the resurrected saints mentioned in Matthew 27: 52-53?

Matthew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

This resurrection of several believers was one of the phenomena accompanying the resurrection of Jesus Christ to underscore that monumental event. These saints came back to physical life. (In the Bible, the word saints means those who are sanctified or set apart as holy, meaning all of God’s true followers.) We know from such scriptures as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 that God has resurrected no one to eternal life as an immortal spirit yet—except Christ.

For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

These references teach us that God will change the righteous dead along with living Christians to immortal beings when Jesus Christ returns.

After God brought the people mentioned in Matthew 27:52-53 back to life, they undoubtedly went back to their homes, where many acquaintances saw them. It’s hard to imagine how utterly startling such an experience would be for their relatives and friends!

The Bible says nothing further about these people God resurrected at Christ’s death, leaving us to conclude that they eventually died (again) and their families buried them (again). Along with all other saints who died, they await in their graves their resurrection to spirit life.
==========================
This event in John shows Lazarus being resurrected after 3 days and coming out of the tomb:

John 10
:
38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out.” 44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
==============================
A similar event happens in Revelation concerning the rapture of the 2 witnesses [of which I have a thread on]:

Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

Revelation 11
:
11 And after the three days and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!" And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....
============================
Also, in this covenantle parable of Luke 16, a man named Lazarus is also shown as dead, but instead of being buried, he is "raptured" to Abraham's bosom.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.
The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:

LUKE 16:
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the Messengers to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."


The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades when he died.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God:

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (p. 206, vol. 2).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah...................
====================================
[/QUOTE]
 
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claninja

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Agree.
Now if we can just hit that sweet spot between Partial and Full Preterism, we just may be able to come to agreements in some areas against the Dispensationalists and Futurists.....

I would argue a good starting point should be:

‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
Daniel 7:17-18 - Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 7:17-18 - English Standard Version


If Christ received the kingdom (Luke 19:12, daniel 7:13-14) at his resurrection and ascension, it seems it should be the same for the saints.

Just as the kingdom was present in Christ’s ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending the spirit (Daniel 2:44,Luke 11:20, romans 14:17, revelation 12:10), so to are we presently in the kingdom (matthew 13:24, Matthew 13:47, Colossians 1:13).

Yet it is not until the resurrection and ascension, that we inherit the kingdom as Christ did (1 Corinthians 15:50, 2 Timothy 4:18).

It was not until the wicked tenants were destroyed that the new nation would receive the kingdom (Matthew 21:43)

We know that kingdom of God would be set up during the kings of the 4th kingdom (Daniel 2:44). The gospels and epistles testify to Gods kingdom being set up during the Roman Empire. It is during the Roman Empire that Christ resurrected and ascended to receive this kingdom, so that it would come with power with the sending the Spirit (revelation 12:10, romans 14:17) Thus I would argue it is when we are resurrected and ascended, just as Christ, that we receive the kingdom.

So when is this? According to Daniel 7, there would be 4 kingdoms and then The saints would receive the kingdom.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I would argue a good starting point should be:

‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
Daniel 7:17-18 - Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 7:17-18 - English Standard Version


If Christ received the kingdom (Luke 19:12, daniel 7:13-14) at his resurrection and ascension, it seems it should be the same for the saints.

Just as the kingdom was present in Christ’s ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending the spirit (Daniel 2:44,Luke 11:20, romans 14:17, revelation 12:10), so to are we presently in the kingdom (matthew 13:24, Matthew 13:47, Colossians 1:13).

Yet it is not until the resurrection and ascension, that we inherit the kingdom as Christ did (1 Corinthians 15:50, 2 Timothy 4:18).

It was not until the wicked tenants were destroyed that the new nation would receive the kingdom (Matthew 21:43)

We know that kingdom of God would be set up during the kings of the 4th kingdom (Daniel 2:44). The gospels and epistles testify to Gods kingdom being set up during the Roman Empire. It is during the Roman Empire that Christ resurrected and ascended to receive this kingdom, so that it would come with power with the sending the Spirit (revelation 12:10, romans 14:17) Thus I would argue it is when we are resurrected and ascended, just as Christ, that we receive the kingdom.

So when is this? According to Daniel 7, there would be 4 kingdoms and then The saints would receive the kingdom.
Hello claninja.
I agree Daniel is a good starting point and one of which I am again delving into.
Have you noticed my Daniel 12 thread?
I hope to eventually harmonize Daniel to the Olivet Discourse and Revelation

Daniel 12:1 ..."time of distress..thy people escape..written in Book" Israel/Jerusalem/Judea

I want to explore the similarity between Daniel 12: and Luke 21:36 concerning the phrase "and thy people shall escape".

First, let's examine the word used for "escape" in the OT and NT.
Dan 12 is talking about Daniel and his people, the Southern Kingdom of the House of Judah, the Jews

4422 malat
a primitive root;
properly, to be smooth, i.e. (by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causatively, to release or rescue; specifically, to bring forth young, emit sparks:--deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, X speedily, X surely.

Daniel 12:1

"And in that time/season Michael shall stand-up, the great chief prince, the one standing over sons of thy people.
And a time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation until that time. And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, everyone being found written in the scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

Jesus talking to His Disciples in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

1628. ek-pheugo from 1537 and 5343; to flee out:--escape, flee. [5343. pheugo fyoo'-go apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:--escape, flee (away).]
============================
To be continued..............
Daniel 10:1
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war/host<6635>. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
==================================
The more I look at Dan 10:1, the more it appears to resemble the great Armageddon/Gog-Magog war in Revelation.........
That Hebrew word #H6635 accors in only 4 other verse in Daniel, all in Chatp 8.

6635 tsaba' tsaw-baw' or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from 6633;
a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship):--appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

Daniel 8:
10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.
12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
===================
Sounds very similar to this event in Revelation. Amazing!

Rev 12:4
His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the land. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
 
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parousia70

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Full Preterist today say the resurrection is past. Paul was dealing with an early form of this error

So it will NEVER be ok to say the resurrection is past? even after it is?

Or is it only wrong to say it if it isn't true?
 
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